[Visaster]

This is one good looking ford car. I got to see this in flesh.
Any comparison with the size of ertiga?
Even if the car is a biggish hatch the big tires marks it higher up on road grip.
Its should be a better highway machine than any hatch, just IMHO.
The front profile of the car looks sleek.
I think it will be priced at 9 lakhs range for a petrol.
Hope they bring in the diesel too.

Waiting to see it on road.

[anumod]

As per the Ford Officials, they are ready with the production model, but delaying the launch because of the current volatile economic situations. (Initially I was thinking that the launch of Duster by Jul 2012 would be a threat for Ecosports). After seeing the detailed review in the Autocar about Duster, I feel this is not going to be that much threat to the Ecoport, other than size, nothing else is a convincing factor for me to move away from Ecosport. The interiors are pretty ordinary and the exterior looks are not modern.

[shankar.balan]

With the Duster's pricing, Ford will certainly be forced to sit up and take notice.

I remember when they launched the Fusion in 2005, I was having a word with one of their then executives and mentioned to him that they simply hadn't understood anything about India and its perceptions. A vehicle like the Fusion is straightaway perceived as expensive and lack of diesel puts people off. Even if I say so myself, that sttement was borne out in terms of the sales that they achieved.
And their pricing for the Fusion even then, was on the high side because we hadn't yet matured enough in general, to view a medium-large station wagon type hatch in the same light as a sedan, regardless of the advantages etc. It ended up a niche product, appreciated by a few and reviled by many.

Now they seem to have got the styling of the EcoSport and its appearance etc spot on. I for one want to know what sort of actual functionality one is going to get in this package and at what price.

If ford pack this vehicle with goodies and gizmos, in particular the safety kit and perhaps 4WD etc and offers a top variant in a diesel alongside the present top spec Renault Duster, there will certainly be takers for it.

Whats your guesstimate on the EcoSport pricing?
Mine is as follows and is based on Bangalore's horrendously Iniquitous taxes while pricing:
Note that this is not authenticated by anyone- it is only my own guess:

Base petrol - 7.5 lacs on road
Petrol mid - 8.25 lacs on road
Petrol top - 9.5 lacs on road
Base diesel - 8.25 lacs on road
Diesel mid - 9.5 lacs on road
diesel top - 10.5 lacs on road
Diesel top 4WD - 11.5 lacs on road

I would guess that they wont offer a 4WD in petrol but could offer it in Diesel and price it at a slight premium.

They will also wish to take away a share of Renault's pie as well as make an appreciable dent in the M&M and Tata share as well.

They will definitely be looking to eat up some share from the sedans too. This 'shock' pricing strategy could well work, because there is a hunger for little urban SUV's in the market. People are more image conscious than before.

I think they will succeed to a good extent because people are getting much more quality and safety conscious as time goes by and the more vehicle options that are becoming available with safety etc as standard, cause the market to change by placing greater emphasis on these aspects.

The thing they need to watch out for is not to repeat those horrible hard plastics of the Figo in their quest to engineer things to a cost!

[anumod]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Whats your guesstimate on the EcoSport pricing?
Mine is as follows and is based on Bangalore's horrendously Iniquitous taxes while pricing:

This is like a dream I feel. Because in Focus , ecoboost engine is offered in a premium pricing. Let us do some math here. Ecosports is coming with 100% localization. It is under 4 metre so only 12% tax is applicable. Let's start with a base price of Fiesta (Say 7.3) This is with 70% localization. So with 100% localization we can expect it to be around 6.8. Now take out 12% excise duty. (This will be on top of price excluding VAT) (1.14x = 6.8 , so without VAT it is coming to 5.96 and the 12% excise duty is 71 K, so the effective price is 5.24 and with vat it is 5.97. Now we can add the premium for Eco boost engine that is 10% That is coming to 6.57. And the overall body parts cost would be more for Ecosport is more compared to Fiesta, So I am going to add another 10% for that . SO that is coming to 7.24)

So My guess is that the base petrol model would be @ 7.24 ex-showroom and on-road would be 8.59.

With this we can predict the other models as well.

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by anumod

This is like a dream I feel. Because in Focus , ecoboost engine is offered in a premium pricing. Let us do some math here. Ecosports is coming with 100% localization. It is under 4 metre so only 12% tax is applicable. Let's start with a base price of Fiesta (Say 7.3) This is with 70% localization. So with 100% localization we can expect it to be around 6.8. Now take out 12% excise duty. (This will be on top of price excluding VAT) (1.14x = 6.8 , so without VAT it is coming to 5.96 and the 12% excise duty is 71 K, so the effective price is 5.24 and with vat it is 5.97. Now we can add the premium for Eco boost engine that is 10% That is coming to 6.57. And the overall body parts cost would be more for Ecosport is more compared to Fiesta, So I am going to add another 10% for that . SO that is coming to 7.24)

So My guess is that the base petrol model would be @ 7.24 ex-showroom and on-road would be 8.59.

With this we can predict the other models as well.

Good one!
Well thought through.
Which means they can actually rationalize the gap in pricing between variants and offer about 6 variants across both Petrol and Diesel.
Starting like you said at about 8.5 and going all the way up to 12.5 ish for the top spec with 4WD Diesel. Like I said, owing to preconceived notions here in India they may not even bother offering 4WD but they certainly wont offer it in Petrol.
The trick for Ford is to come up with gizmos and safety tech stuff to keep them in the game vis a vis Renault, Scorpio and Safari and the other sedan competition which they will definitely be targeting!

[arunphilip]

Ford have an opportunity to price the EcoSport alongside their new Global Fiesta - maybe not 100%, but with a strong overlap.

Their new Fiesta is not selling well, so they needn't worry about cannibalization within their own portfolio.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Like I said, owing to preconceived notions here in India they may not even bother offering 4WD but they certainly wont offer it in Petrol.
The trick for Ford is to come up with gizmos and safety tech stuff to keep them in the game vis a vis Renault, Scorpio and Safari and the other sedan competition which they will definitely be targeting!

Yeah, I doubt if the 4WD will be coming at the launch.
In general, Ford is pretty good with gizmos and safety (even on lower variants), and I assume they will provide atleast Fiesta level of quality. And traditionally the cars are good to drive as well.

But I guess the verdict will solely depend on the pricing. That has always been their weakness (except for the Figo)

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by man_and_machine

Product pricing (not restricted to autos) always goes with premium pricing for new tech. Its not really a premium, its about differentiating new platforms, user experiences, newer efficiencies and starting the starting the relevance cycle of the product. The recent example is the iPad 3. Its an incremental model, evolutionary and demands a premium over the outgoing model. Why? A part of the rise in price is due to the incremental features, but more is towards starting the relevance cycle of iPad 3 for another 2 (or so) years to come and stopping the relevance for iPad (remember the original model?).

Its a bad idea to place a new tech at a lower price (a very bad idea, then you will no longer be able to create a brand known for its innovation), The First CRDI car improved on milage and NVH, it would be have been a fantastic idea to sell them at a lower price than the then existing Diesel engines, but it never happened. Then the new tech does not get acceptable as a revolutionary change (the reason behind it would be, if it can cost the same, how different could it be).

Also you lose the band with to lower the price later when you need to (later).

Name one product that is an tech improvement and cost less than status quo.

Absolutely wrong sir!. Its a proven fact that improvement in technology almost always comes at a cheaper price. The entire lifecycle of mobiles/laptops/electronics are there for us to see. Each iteration is more powerful/consumes less power and is cheaper than the older version.

Regarding automobiles please look at Bajaj Auto's Pulsar brand. Every iteration of this bike is a superb improvement over the older one. They try and incorporate the latest in technology and in real purchasing power terms each new iteration of this bike is cheaper than the older one.

Tata Safari 2.2 was marginally more costly than the 3.0.

Only Apple does and gets away with the unthinkable. Firstly create a market on a non need (Example iPhone or iPad). then price it exobirantly and then create a hype and a myth that iPad 3 is so much more better and therefore is much more costly than iPad2....

[apachelongbow]

If Renault or Ford overprice their large hatchback called as Suv, then the Indian buyer will throw them out of the market. The only way these two companies can survive and make money is to provide value for money/bang for the buck vehicles. We Indians are known to be the most difficult customers to please, coz we always choose gud value for our money. A good price for these two cars would be a lac or two above jazz or i20. Anything more approaching a full size Suv will be a flop

[shajufx]

I am a die-hard ecosport fan waiting in line, but hearing the specs and reviews of the Duster, its guaranteed that I would not miss a test drive of the renault when it becomes available.

[man_and_machine]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

Absolutely wrong sir!..... The entire lifecycle of mobiles/laptops/electronics are there for us to see. Each iteration is more powerful/consumes less power and is cheaper than the older version.

You need to distinguish between evolutionary and revolutionary innovations. What you say is true for evolutionary type, where once you reach/cross the tipping point in technology and usage you get into improvements that reduce total cost, akin to your mobile examples.

I was talking about revolutionary improvements here. If you take mobiles again, improving battery life is evolutionary, while shift from black and white screens --> color screens --> touch based screens --> retina/amoled etc screens are revolutionary and here there is no way that the latter is cheaper than the former? can you quote one aberration?

You can extrapolate this logic to all the other contentions you have on this logic.

The EcoSport is not an simple evolutionary step. It's a revolutionary step for Petrol engines, akin to carburetor to fuel injection types, so again the later can't be cheaper than the former. How else will you realize the capital cost of research?
Again, the new tech will need to reach a tipping point for mass adoption to get into evolutionary mode, that is when the small incremental tech improvements will bring the total cost of ownership.

Some time game changing tech reduces cost, but they are usually lateral developments that do not stem out of the same solution domain, but here we are not considering that.

Hence, my guess is that there will be a premium for the EcoSport for its revolutionary engine.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by man_and_machine

The EcoSport is not an simple evolutionary step. It's a revolutionary step for Petrol engines, akin to carburetor to fuel injection types, so again the later can't be cheaper than the former. How else will you realize the capital cost of research?
Again, the new tech will need to reach a tipping point for mass adoption to get into evolutionary mode, that is when the small incremental tech improvements will bring the total cost of ownership.

Some time game changing tech reduces cost, but they are usually lateral developments that do not stem out of the same solution domain, but here we are not considering that.

Hence, my guess is that there will be a premium for the EcoSport for its revolutionary engine.

Is ecosport engine revolutionary in the true sense here? If it were a fuel cell/hybrid/solar/air engine then yes I agree. Making a small capacity turbo petrol with higher bhp is by no means so revolutionary so as to charge a premium. With the same logic Tata Nano's small capacity 4 stroke/twin cylinder with high bhp is also revolutionary.. are they charging a premium for it? I dont think so...

[aravind.anand]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

Is ecosport engine revolutionary in the true sense here? If it were a fuel cell/hybrid/solar/air engine then yes I agree. Making a small capacity turbo petrol with higher bhp is by no means so revolutionary so as to charge a premium. With the same logic Tata Nano's small capacity 4 stroke/twin cylinder with high bhp is also revolutionary.. are they charging a premium for it? I dont think so...

It is not just a turbocharged petrol putting out a big bhp figure that is revolutionary here. How many cars in our market today offer the GDi (Gasoline Direct Injection) The new Sonata has it, but in segments below that? I don't think anybody offers it. And isn't the engine that has won the International Engine of the Year award, and two other awards at the same event, worthy of being called revolutionary?

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by aravind.anand

It is not just a turbocharged petrol putting out a big bhp figure that is revolutionary here. How many cars in our market today offer the GDi (Gasoline Direct Injection) The new Sonata has it, but in segments below that? I don't think anybody offers it. And isn't the engine that has won the International Engine of the Year award, and two other awards at the same event, worthy of being called revolutionary?

How does it matter really even if its a plasma pulse engine driven by light rays from an atom? As per the average buyer the questions asked is with petrol rates @75per liter is this engine giving me so extraordinary milage compared to a competitor? Is it giving me the same value for money as the next brand? Is it better than a DDSi deisel?

As long as the car proves itself a good buy for the money charged it will sell. Just for a gem of an engine if it is overpriced by say 20% it will not sell ....

You see uninformed buyers (the bulk of the sales) ask questions such as below
If the ecosport usp is 120bhp engine which is small and a technological marvel, hence we price it at par with a scorpio, question asked is .. well why not a proven scorpio which has much more space and presence?

If the Usp is fantastic average on a petrol with the pricing of a say a Ertiga question is why not an Ertiga deisel which gives me Maruti peace of mind and fantastic average and much more space (7 seats)?

See the only way to sell good numbers it have a rational price for this new compact Suv segment which makes people want to buy it for what it is and not compare with other vehicles. Perfect example the XUV.

[Ashley2]

I was always wondering why there exists a trend of lowering the CC of an engine and claiming to be good?
Actually you are trying to push(squeeze) the engine to its limits and extracting maximum output. Will this not translate into reduced overall life of engine? What is the life of this engine compared to higher CC engines? Any camparo?