[rlakhanpal]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

If really every buyer was so keen on all that extra space then Ford Fusion would have been a big hit. And so would be Xylo and Sumo and other entry level MUVs. You have to realise that the comfort and feel of a sedan like Honda City and VW Vento cannot be matched with the Ertiga. Also Maruti loses out on brand value after a certain price point.

Coming to MUVs again I don't see any mad decline in the sales of the Xylo. I mentioned Xylo because it falls into the same price band. The Innova is in a different league and I don't see the Ertiga hurting it much in the long run if you exclude the initial hoopla around the Launch. How many private users anyway buy a Xylo. Most of them are sold in the Taxi segment.

Infact at best I see many buyers of SX4 might want to go for Ertiga.

+1
I look at this vehicle differently - sort of a station wagon with the flexibility to use the boot to seat 2 people conventionally (as opposed to cross-legged, or with the boot open like the kids in MS 800s from the '90s)

It is a "lifestyle vehicle with utility" - not multi-utility in the real sense. When MS are themselves not branding it in the MUV space (invented a term to categorize the product), why should we expect the car to deliver beyond its core competencies?

[ampere]

@Mohit has a valid point.

- How many people today buy Xylo for personal reasons?
- If that section is small, then we are not talking any dislodging here.
- For the cab segment, 7-seater space of a Xylo would always appeal in comparison to the Ertiga.

- The debatable topic is how many sedan owners in that price change camps.
- People buying premium C+ sedans will surely not change.
- Its going to impact more on the entry level sedan segment.

As I mentioned earlier we will witness two MUV styled vehicles with different engine capacities co-existing
in the same price band owing to entirely different customer base.

[sachinayak]

Do we not have a lot of people buying the Innova and driving it around with under 4 people most times? For such people wouldn't a cheaper option (and even more so a Maruti) fit the bill perfectly.

D-zire (atleast the old one) IMHO had no USP. Yet it outsold its rivals. It wouldn't take rocket science to predict another blockbuster from Maruti here (though we may be jumping the gun).

BTW, the Fusion for all its space wasn't flexible enough to have a 3rd row of seats which many people want for occasional use. Further was overpriced. If it was launched by Maruti at a lower price band, its market success could have been different. XYLO i personally know people who have not gone for purely for its looks. It had a hate-it or a hate-it look (sorry, my personal opinion).

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by sachinayak

Do we not have a lot of people buying the Innova and driving it around with under 4 people most times? For such people wouldn't a cheaper option (and even more so a Maruti) fit the bill perfectly.

What do you feel is the reason behind these people opting for the Innova then? One reason I can think of is space. Otherwise by your logic most of these people would be better off with a sedan right? Why even the Ertiga? A sedan would be much more refined and premium.

D-zire (atleast the old one) IMHO had no USP. Yet it outsold its rivals. It wouldn't take rocket science to predict another blockbuster from Maruti here (though we may be jumping the gun)

The Dzire had a huge USP. Which was "Jack of all trades". It wasn't great on any 1 front. But as a whole package it made a lot of sense. First of all it was cheapest in its segment. Secondly the only serious competitor it had for the majority of its life time was Tata Manza which suffered from poor brand following. No car just becomes a blockbuster without any USP. Otherwise SX4, Zen Estillo, A-start would also be run away hits ( I mentioned only Maruti cars since its more relevant to the discussion).

If it was launched by Maruti at a lower price band, its market success could have been different. XYLO i personally know people who have not gone for purely for its looks. It had a hate-it or a hate-it look (sorry, my personal opinion).

Maruti rules in the lower segments. But Ertiga is not exactly going to be priced cheap. If its priced below the SX4 then I feel it will just eat away SX4 sales.
Also on the looks front the Ertiga does not make any formidable statement.

It would be really interesting how it will fare against the Ford Ecosport and the Duster assuming they would be priced around 10L too.

[sachinayak]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

What do you feel is the reason behind these people opting for the Innova then? One reason I can think of is space. Otherwise by your logic most of these people would be better off with a sedan right? Why even the Ertiga? A sedan would be much more refined and premium.

Passenger space can be used for luggage but not vice-versa. Innova owners I know of have bought it for the "possible need of extra passenger space occasionally or in the future". Sedans do NOT meet their requirement. Ertiga DOES so and possibly at a significantly lower cost (could be wrong, but Maruti getting its pricing wrong is possibly a one-off case). Better Fuel efficiency matters as well. Plus the only other A.S.S people treat on-par (or better) with Toyota is Maruti.

Originally Posted by drmohitg

The Dzire had a huge USP. Which was "Jack of all trades". It wasn't great on any 1 front. But as a whole package it made a lot of sense. First of all it was cheapest in its segment. Secondly the only serious competitor it had for the majority of its life time was Tata Manza which suffered from poor brand following. No car just becomes a blockbuster without any USP. Otherwise SX4, Zen Estillo, A-start would also be run away hits ( I mentioned only Maruti cars since its more relevant to the discussion).

"Jack of all trades" oftenly used justify the lack of USP. Would it have sold if it were a Ford or GM, i sincerely doubt. The Maruti badge probably was its only USP. Coming to the Zen Estillo and A-Star, they lost out but only to their own peers - the Wagon R and Alto respectively. In the absence of the later, they could have been much better off (BTW, numbers of Estillo are shocking better than what i think it deserves, market of-course thinks otherwise). SX4 had better equipped rivals to compete against, many equipped with a premium tag, does the Ertiga have the same problem?

Originally Posted by drmohitg

Maruti rules in the lower segments. But Ertiga is not exactly going to be priced cheap. If its priced below the SX4 then I feel it will just eat away SX4 sales. Also on the looks front the Ertiga does not make any formidable statement.

Hyundai failed earlier but have made significant in-roads here. Suzuki would manage it sooner than later. BTW, the 8-10L segment is not a premium segment for a MUV.

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by sachinayak

Passenger space can be used for luggage but not vice-versa. Innova owners I know of have bought it for the "possible need of extra passenger space occasionally or in the future". Sedans do NOT meet their requirement. Ertiga DOES so and possibly at a significantly lower cost (could be wrong, but Maruti getting its pricing wrong is possibly a one-off case).

What you say is true but only in very few cases I feel. Assuming that the Ertiga's middle row provides more or less similar leg space as the Dzire then I would still prefer to be travelling in an Innova/Xylo, even if I have only 4 people in the car. But ofcourse all this is mere speculation. We haven't yet seen the car. If it provides decent space then there is no reason why this cannot be the all time blockbuster. We all would have to see it for ourselves to judge. A lot of opinion regarding space inside the car also depends on your build. I am on the heavier side, tall and so are most people in my family. So I would appreciate all that space. The same may not apply to a lean guy.

"Jack of all trades" oftenly used justify the lack of USP. Would it have sold if it were a Ford or GM, i sincerely doubt. The Maruti badge probably was its only USP.

Agreed but in today's market badge value is not the only thing that sells cars. Dzire lacked a USP but it didn't have any major problems too. It offered you a good engine, reliability, average space, cheap after sales, good FE and overall good build quality. So yes it might have sold well even if it was a Ford. Similarly the Etios has failed IMO even though it has the Toyota badge which to many people means even more than a Maruti.

[sachinayak]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

Assuming that the Ertiga's middle row provides more or less similar leg space as the Dzire then I would still prefer to be travelling in an Innova/Xylo, even if I have only 4 people in the car.

Something to help visualize the space on offer - Image courtesy Autocar India Review. The middle seat slides a whopping 24cm, which makes it very flexible (at least on paper). If you are not using the rear bench for passengers (i think 80-90% of instances with Innova's that i have seen - non-taxi ones in particular), then the space on offer is not bad. Definitely does not look cramped like the DZire from the above pic - when used as a 2-row seating vehicle.

[n.ananth]

Originally Posted by sachinayak

Attachment 908974

Something to help visualize the space on offer - Image courtesy Autocar India Review. The middle seat slides a whopping 24cm, which makes it very flexible (at least on paper). If you are not using the rear bench for passengers (i think 80-90% of instances with Innova's that i have seen - non-taxi ones in particular), then the space on offer is not bad. Definitely does not look cramped like the DZire from the above pic - when used as a 2-row seating vehicle.

Given the considerable travel of the middle row of seats, the Ertiga should be capable of accomodating 6 adults in reasonable comfort. This should appeal well to people who are looking for a vehicle that can transport more than 5 people within a sub 10 lac budget. The Ertiga IMO will also be more comfortable to drive and park in cities since the dimensions are compact compared to the other MUV's in the market . Knowing MSIL, they will position it very competitively and ensure that it takes a reasonable share of business from the Innova / Tavera / Xylo.

[Deep Blue]

Originally Posted by sachinayak

Passenger space can be used for luggage but not vice-versa. Innova owners I know of have bought it for the "possible need of extra passenger space occasionally or in the future". Sedans do NOT meet their requirement. Ertiga DOES so and possibly at a significantly lower cost (could be wrong, but Maruti getting its pricing wrong is possibly a one-off case). Better Fuel efficiency matters as well. Plus the only other A.S.S people treat on-par (or better) with Toyota is Maruti.

I agree with you. When my brother and family come home for their annual vacation, that extra 3rd row is just what I would love to have on my Figo eventhough for rest of the year, Figo would do just fine. When I bought my Figo 2yrs ago, I wanted a Innova but could not afford one,even went around looking for preowned one but did not find any good ones. I never liked the Xylo, it looked very taxi like to me. Ertiga, if priced right and from what I gather from the ACI review is just the right prescription for me.
Us Indians with our extended families would always find good use for the third row. This in combination with the right pricing and Maruti brand will bring in long waiting periods for the Ertiga.
I am itching to see it!

[deetjohn]

A bigger Diesel engine would have been wonderful. The 1.3 MJD is a brilliant motor, but this is pushing it a bit far. 7 people and the Ertiga may struggle on slopes.

A bigger motor would have been apt. 1.6 MJD would be perfect.

[swiftdiesel]

Originally Posted by deetjohn

A bigger Diesel engine would have been wonderful. The 1.3 MJD is a brilliant motor, but this is pushing it a bit far. 7 people and the Ertiga may struggle on slopes.

A bigger motor would have been apt. 1.6 MJD would be perfect.

I differ! I've seen commercial vans like Fiat Fiorano with the same 1.3 MJD in the UK doing steep gradients with aplomb.

If this is pushing a bit far, how about the GM Enjoy that's coming this year end? It's as long as the Innova and a proper 7 seater. This is going to use the same 1.3 MJD.

This is the icing on the cake: Nissan is going to use its 1.5 dci on the Evalis van that's as big as a Mercedes Sprinter!

These engines are frugal and at the same time torquey. Who said you can't have the cake and eat it too?

[trinadha]

hi IMHO thinking of engine capacity with a larger innova solely wouldnt justify.To be more rational try comparing the kerb weights of innova to ertiga: 2300kgs to 1700kgs;

[rlakhanpal]

Ok, so I've been inside one a few minutes back, on my way to work - ZXi

As I mentioned in yesterday's post - it is sort of a station wagon with the flexibility to seat more people when the need arises.

3rd row seating - with middle row pushed back to the furthest, knee room only for kids. Putting the middle row in the center of the channel (comfortable for the middle row itself), almost same as at the back in the Beat or my 2003 Santro. For reference, I am 5'6" and the rest of my family is as tall or shorter.

Boot space - with all 3 rows in service, enough for the monthly grocery shopping trip, or 2 cabin bags (depth is the problem).

3rd row Ingress/Egress -
Thats where its a make-or-break:

1. The middle row seat does not flip forward to allow easy movement. So you slide it forward and then fold it using the lever on the shoulder to make room to enter/exit.
2. Sari-clad ladies would find it difficult to get in/out-of the 3rd row.

Other bits that I noticed in the short time I had:
1. Standard kit for ZXi level - rear defogger, alloys, etc
2. No ACC. My opinion: Given the size of the vehicle, size of the engines, and the separate blower for the rear; I don't think it will be efficient
3. Practical use of space for bottle holders, cubby holes for mobile phones, etc
4. Good looking dash with Yellow back-light
5. No remote boot lid as the boot has a handle to open
6. Near flat floor

Mobile camera was used but delivered more grains than features (old phone, no light) . Will try to massage the pictures once I get home tonight and share whatever makes sense.

It is down to the pricing and test drive now. I have been hunting for a 8-9 lac diesel for some time now: Sunny, Rapid (the budget got that out of the equation), SX4 but nothing answered the question: Is this THE product that fulfills my needs? I needed something that my wife, dad, and I can drive with the family when needed - me, wifey, daughter in her child seat, sometimes both moms and dads, sometimes grandmom. And I was looking for a Maruti for low TCO and support network - the car is going to be with us for a long time (the Santro is in service for 8 yrs and 97k now).

Just wondering - I was planning to drive upto Leh in the Santro a couple of years back. With the ground clearance, boot space (with 3rd row folded), and diesel - the Ertiga might be a better choice.

[sidindica]

I have just asked my friend to wait and then book this vehicle. And I think that this will be another blockbuster from MSIL. Probably this was the vehicle that a joint family needs as its a monocoque (read=car like to drive), can carry 7 people in moderate comfort and being a maruti, service should not be an issue. The gap between sedans and ladder frame based people carriers has just been bridged. I have seen many people carrying 7-8 people crunched inside a sedan and for those customers, it should suit the bill perfectly. Cannibalization or not, this is the vehicle that India needs currently. A mix of sedan-like driving comfort with the flexibility and utility of a MPV or a minivan.

I welcome this move from MSIL. Just hope its priced sensibly.

[sachinayak]

Originally Posted by rlakhanpal

It is down to the pricing and test drive now. I have been hunting for a 8-9 lac diesel for some time now: Sunny, Rapid (the budget got that out of the equation), SX4 but nothing answered the question: Is this THE product that fulfills my needs? I needed something that my wife, dad, and I can drive with the family when needed - me, wifey, daughter in her child seat, sometimes both moms and dads, sometimes grandmom. And I was looking for a Maruti for low TCO and support network - the car is going to be with us for a long time (the Santro is in service for 8 yrs and 97k now).

Would you have not considered the Innova (for your above requirement) if it came cheaper? My hunch is the Ertiga will hit Innova sales more than anyone else.