Team-BHP - Safari = SUV. Sumo = MUV. WHY?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maverick79 (Post 2674377)

Its not just tuning. The entire body shell and even the chassis are different. To achieve a specific performance requirement, one can just not get the desired results by only tuning. The body dynamics play a very major role.

Yep. Read below; I meant to put the same thought across.

Quote:

Originally Posted by libranof1987 (Post 2674362)

but it's how they are built that could define them as MUV or SUV : again, for branding purposes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maverick79 (Post 2674302)

Agreed. As mentioned earlier, though the aggregates are similar, they are tuned more for performance in Safari than Sumo.
For eg,
1. The torque is 250Nm @ 1660 -2000rpm in Sumo while its 320NM @ 1700 - 2700 rpm. This shows Safari is more comfortable in higher cruising speeds too, unlike Sumo.
2. The GC is 190 for Sumo where its 205mm in Safari. Again a higher advantage of Safari for Off Roading.
3. Though the Gear Box is similar G-76 - 5/4.1 with overdrive in both, the safari has Synchros in addition.
4. The length of Sumo, 4258mm, is shorter than Safari @ 4650mm. This translates in to lesser leg room and more passenger carrying capacity of Sumo than Safari. Sumo has a 9 Seater config too.

You can get all these details on the individual websites.

The list goes on and on. Hence, the products are designed more based on the market segements and target customers and hence the pricing/ features/ comforts/ performance/ styling/ seating capacity, etc, keeps varying.

Thanks again Maveric for justification.
By the way Sumo Torque is 250NM @1000-2000 rpm in fact.(1660-2000 rpm is the printing mistake both in owner's manual and in websiteof Sumo Gold(CR4),(Tata motors is also prone to such error! ) and rightly safari has torque of 320NM at 1700 to 2700 rpm .But again the final drive ratio is also different.It is 3.36 for Sumo Gold BSIV and 4.1 for Safari. So the point HIGHER CRUISING SPEEDS is alike in both the cases.

So it seems that the term MUV is very much relative and certain MUVs are close to SUV and some MUVs have even better advantage over SUV in off roading specific places. For example in Arunachal Pradesh for the hilly, zigzag and narrow roads taxi operators prefer Sumo because of it's small turning radius against other SUVs and MUVs with longer wheel base.

SUV's are to the luxurious side and in most cases with better engine. I think these are only the significant differentiators That i can think of.

Meanwhile you may have noticed that both Sumo and the Bolero suffer from bad finish and this is done for the same reason:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by koushik (Post 2673984)

Both Tata Safari and Sumo have body over frame design , both are available in 2WD and 4WD version , both shares the same gear box and transfer case, both have almost same sitting arrangement, even both are available also with powerful 3 litre diesel engine.The only significant difference is in wheelbase. And sometimes shorter wheel base offers better off-road driving ability. Then why the Safari is identified as SUV and Sumo as MUV ? Thanks.
Regards,
Kaushik

Quote:

Originally Posted by koushik (Post 2673984)

Then why the Safari is identified as SUV and Sumo as MUV ?

Firstly, I think no one will ever hear the end of this debate.

Secondly, I would like to ask the thread starter whether his question is limited only to Tata Sumo and Tata Safari in particular. Alternatively, does it also include all MUV-SUV siblings, such as Bolero and Scorpio for instance?
That said, I 100% agree with all of the posts above. Especially the technical arguments provided by Maverick79, Kaushik, and libranof1987 are valid.

However, the question in turn spawned off these questions in my mind:

Isn’t today’s most advanced Sumo 4x4 variant a better vehicle, in terms of both on and off road performance than the first generation Safari? If so, does that mean it is time we started calling the Sumo an SUV. Alternatively does that mean you can no more call a 1st gen Safari, an SUV?
It is easy to debate that the Safari is a more competent vehicle off road and on the highways, both comfort-wise and performance-wise than a Sumo. Hence it is easy to categorize the Sumo as an MUV and the Safari as an SUV.
Although by the same milestone the 2011 Toyota Land Cruiser can make the 2012 Safari look like an MUV. Does that mean the Safari is actually just an MUV?

So at the end of the day, I think it is all about product placement and portfolio nomenclature.

The final question still remains. Are there any widely accepted guidelines to decide what qualifies as an SUV and what does not?
Maybe this existing thread can help with that. (Or can it?)
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ining-suv.html

From my personal (and hence biased) point of view I agree with what GTO said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTO (Post 2674397)

The term MUV (multi utility vehicle) is derived from MPV (multi purpose vehicle). Generally, I'd use the MUV / MPV tag for "van like" cars like the Innova, Xylo, Omni etc.

However, I do see the thread starter's point and consider the Sumo more of an SUV than an MUV. I guess it's about the body style, and the Sumo has more than a hint of an SUV to it.

When Safari & Sumo were launched in early 2000s, If a vehicle had just bare bones features, it was termed an MUV. If there are some luxury features and safety features, it was termed an SUV. With the entry of Innova, Tavera, Xylo et all, The definition of MUV segment was Re-Written with the creature comforts and safety options offered. Same with SUV segment with Scorpio, Terracan et All.

I would call sumo an UV rather an MUV as UV refers to the segment where a bare bones people carrier is needed, which could occassionally transfer some odd-sized cargo like a Rice-Sack or a Sack full of potatoes. It is also used to transport Late-Night workers pan industries.

Sumo does not have any creature comforts and safety features. It is just a basic people carrier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miel (Post 2674475)

Isn’t today’s most advanced Sumo 4x4 variant a better vehicle, in terms of both on and off road performance than the first generation Safari? If so, does that mean it is time we started calling the Sumo an SUV. Alternatively does that mean you can no more call a 1st gen Safari, an SUV?
It is easy to debate that the Safari is a more competent vehicle off road and on the highways, both comfort-wise and performance-wise than a Sumo. Hence it is easy to categorize the Sumo as an MUV and the Safari as an SUV.
Although by the same milestone the 2011 Toyota Land Cruiser can make the 2012 Safari look like an MUV. Does that mean the Safari is actually just an MUV?

Thanks Miel for effective reply.Yes my question is limited to Tata Sumo Gold and Tata Safari in particular.Despite it's new 3 L CR4 engine in Sumo Gold, the Safari(even with smaller engine) is better for high speed cruising ( ie above 120kmph speed).But it seems that Sumo is designed for heavy usage and covers many aspects that Safari is not meant for.So I would say that Sumo Gold is a blend of SUV and MUV . GTO would you please agree with that?

If Sumo will be branded/positioned as SUV then who will buy Safari? I guess Sumo is lot cheaper than Safari. As simple as that.

Safari's 2.2L unit makes 140PS and 320NM whereas Sumo's 2.2L unit makes 120PS and 250NM. SUVs are more powerful, looks sporty whereas MUVs are not. Same is the case with Safari and Sumo.

PS - Is Mahindra Bolero an SUV? Mahindra clearly brands it as a tough SUV!

If Bolero = SUV then Why not Sumo = SUV as Sumo is more powerful than Bolero I guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miel (Post 2674475)

Secondly, I would like to ask the thread starter whether his question is limited only to Tata Sumo and Tata Safari in particular. Alternatively, does it also include all MUV-SUV siblings, such as Bolero and Scorpio for instance?

For a long time I wanted to start a thread to ask the question on which would be a better product: Bolero, Scorpio or XUV500. Maybe this is a good enough point!

The root reason of the question being which is the real SUV. I understand that SUVs are more comfort creatures than off roaders, but looking at how a Bolero rules the rural (off) roads, I think it serves another aspect of an SUV, that is to tackle lousy roads without breaking a sweat. And it is comfortable too, minus some fancy electronics. Just because we tend to cram a lot of bodies in it, does it render the vehicle as a MUV?

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTO (Post 2674397)

However, I do see the thread starter's point and consider the Sumo more of an SUV than an MUV. I guess it's about the body style, and the Sumo has more than a hint of an SUV to it.

I agree. Doesn't Sumo resemble Mercedes-Benz G-Class? :) I dot know the origin of the Sumo design but considering the relationship Tata had with Mercedes at different point, it could have been based on Mercedes SUV/Wagon.
Styling of Sumo is definitely SUVish then a typical people mover which have mono-volume design, aimed at maximizing the space inside.