[Jignesh]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

Maruti can't sell anything above 7 lacs. The SX4 for is a sales dud; Kizashi and Grand Vitara are disasters.

Originally Posted by darsa

He might be wrong : but SX4 sales figures prove him right

Hello Civic-Sense & Darsa,

The reason for SX4 selling very fow number in past was due to DZire. People we getting the same space & plus better fuel economy so the DZire was selling more at cost of SX4.

That is why Maruti has now introduced small DZire (less than 4 meters). This will make sure that if people want proper sedan then they have to go for SX4. If they want small car with Boot space, go for new DZire.

You will now see SX4 sales increasing.

As far as Kizashi & Grand Vitara goes, yes their sales are is very less but these Cars are not for masses but only for a few class people.

Thanks,

[Meer]

I won't say Maruti has absolute domination, but many people across the entire country have good experience with the brand.

3 Marutis later, why I like MS is:

1. I get a choice of service stations[competition is great], never have to wait for appointments, the service staff is courteous and they listen, most importantly it is cost effective and job gets done! [I had my friends cars with me - a Honda city and a Santro for a year each and so can compare the service experience in Pune]. Just look at the volume at the service stations, I think it is a mammoth task to manage it. Also, I have never faced any discrimination at the service station whether I take the Ritz or the SX4.

2. I once had a malfunction indicator in my car when I was returning back from market at 7 pm. I called up the customer care and explained. I was advised to drive home without any worry and they will send their mobile unit home. Within 15 minutes of my reaching home, the mechanics reached, diagnosed it as a false error code and left, no charge. And I received follow up calls next day to confirm it is sorted! Similarly, once we were returning from Goa, just started our journey and the hazard lights started working on their own. So we started looking out for a Maruti service station, found one within 10 mins and they fixed the issue without any charge. When I had it checked in Pune, it was a carelessness of the local accessories shop while installing a under dashboard light. 8 years of Maruti ownerships and 2 glitches - not bad , resolved in quick time with a smiling face and at no charge - amazing!

A lot of people I know in my extended family and friends have good things to say, which sums it up.

Also, for all 3 cars I did extensive comparison, test drives etc before buying [lot of friends on T-BHP forum can vouch for the private messages sent to them], so Maruti being a early player or the largest player did not influence my decision.

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by Jignesh

Hello Civic-Sense & Darsa,

The reason for SX4 selling very fow number in past was due to DZire. People we getting the same space & plus better fuel economy so the DZire was selling more at cost of SX4.

You will now see SX4 sales increasing.

I consider the SX4 a finer piece of automobile when compared to the dZire. The average Maruti customer is not able to appreciate that. SX4 sales is not going to go up.

As far as Kizashi & Grand Vitara goes, yes their sales are is very less but these Cars are not for masses but only for a few class people.

Likewise, the Accord or the Superb are also not for the masses. Still they sell better compared to the Kizashi and Grand Vitara. A cutomer with 20L to spare on a car, considered rich by indian standards, would rather spend his money on a premium brand like Honda or a Toyota than a cheap (VFM) brand like Maruti.

Originally Posted by avira_tk

I think people are confusing the SX4 with Maruti's unchangeable fortunes in the C segment. The car comes with the baggage of european design, narrow cabin,limited space and overweight - all work aganst it, if Suzuki were to make the next generation more spacious and get a 1.6MJD, it will be in the reckoning.

Did the Baleno sell well? It didn't have the supposed European baggage. The only time it started selling in decent numbers was when Maruti reduced the prices to around 6L.

Again, the Swift has a European design and a small cabin. Still it sold well. Also, engine sizes has no role to play among Maruti customers. If Maruti launches the next Swift with a 800 cc engine at 1L less than the current prices, with a mileage of 20kmpl, it would sell well.

Maruti can compete on price and in a market like India that advantage will remain for a long time. The whole idea of Maruti as tin cans is overplayed, its better to have a working tin can that a solid go-nowhere white elephant.

Maruti's reliability thing is over-hyped. Sure, the breakdowns might be lesser, but that does not mean that Skodas, VWs and Fiats spend all their time in the garages. Toyotas and Hondas are known worldwide for reliability, Suzukis are just mediocre.

Again, people buy Marutis more because they have service centers are every nook and corner, not because they are more reliable than the Hondas and Toyotas.

[ssh1979]

My colleague, ~35 years old, in an IT company, well-travelled, brand-conscious, "hi-fi", rich, et al.

When it came to purchasing a car on the occasion of his marriage:

Me: the VW Vento is best da in the price bracket you're looking at. And then there is the Ford Fiesta with its auto box and traction control etc., which is the first in its segment. I've heard Skoda Rapid is a well-built car. So many choices man, what are you going to do?

He: my main requirement is mileage and low-cost da; what's wrong with Maruti?

Can't beat MUL on that one

Originally Posted by civic-sense

Again, people buy Marutis more because they have service centers are every nook and corner, not because they are more reliable than the Hondas and Toyotas.

I am with you when you say Hondas and Toyotas are more reliable. But I wish to suggest that they are reliable only with regular maintenance done on them (which may not be a costly affair at all). IMO, they are not abuse friendly. The Marutis are. For the average and below average Joe whose intention is just to get from place A to B, many just abuse the car in some form or the other (mostly unknowingly).

[aby]

Originally Posted by Jignesh

Hello Civic-Sense & Darsa,

The reason for SX4 selling very fow number in past was due to DZire. People we getting the same space & plus better fuel economy so the DZire was selling more at cost of SX4.

That is why Maruti has now introduced small DZire (less than 4 meters). This will make sure that if people want proper sedan then they have to go for SX4. If they want small car with Boot space, go for new DZire.

You will now see SX4 sales increasing.

As far as Kizashi & Grand Vitara goes, yes their sales are is very less but these Cars are not for masses but only for a few class people.

Thanks,

I think this is an over simplistic explanation. Even before Dzire was launched, none of the cars from MSIL stable could take on the segment leader Honda when the latter was outrageously priced.

The things which work so well for MSIL in the small car segment start going against it once you move to slightly upmarket segments. There the snob value starts playing into people's mind and they dont mind shelling out that extra 1L to buy a more premium brand. IMO Kizashi and SX4 will continue to falter till MSIL can create and sustain a more upmarket brand like what Toyota does with Lexus in the world.

[avira_tk]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

Did the Baleno sell well? It didn't have the supposed European baggage. The only time it started selling in decent numbers was when Maruti reduced the prices to around 6L.

Again, the Swift has a European design and a small cabin. Still it sold well. Also, engine sizes has no role to play among Maruti customers. If Maruti launches the next Swift with a 800 cc engine at 1L less than the current prices, with a mileage of 20kmpl, it would sell well.


Maruti's reliability thing is over-hyped. Sure, the breakdowns might be lesser, but that does not mean that Skodas, VWs and Fiats spend all their time in the garages. Toyotas and Hondas are known worldwide for reliability, Suzukis are just mediocre.

Again, people buy Marutis more because they have service centers are every nook and corner, not because they are more reliable than the Hondas and Toyotas.

The Baleno was launched with a price tag that would be the equivalent of today's TSI, which explains it failure to take off. Maruti lowered the price - showing a strength which they had and haven't lost, pricing.

The Swift is a hatch in a market dominated by cars with similar space, give or take a few, as a package it is simply better than most. I don't know what that average Maruti customer think of engine size, and no, I wouldn't write them off like you did, a Swift with the specs you described would be dead on arriival. The market has moved on from the M800 days

Worldwide perceptions hardly matter in India, Skoda is apparently low-rent in the west, here it holds its own against the biggest brands which are known for their bulletproof reliability.

A service centre in every nook and corner will be a deciding factor, as cars get more reliable, it will probably be the only factor. No one wants to waste a whole day at the exclusive service 100km from home.

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by avira_tk

The Baleno was launched with a price tag that would be the equivalent of today's TSI, which explains it failure to take off. Maruti lowered the price - showing a strength which they had and haven't lost, pricing.

I don't understand what TSI is, but the Lancer, City and Astra were priced similar to the Baleno. They all sold well except Baleno. That shows that Maruti has no customers above the 7L mark.

The Swift is a hatch in a market dominated by cars with similar space, give or take a few, as a package it is simply better than most.

SX4 is as heavy, cramped and similarly priced as its European competitors like the Fiesta and the Vento, give or take a few.

I don't know what that average Maruti customer think of engine size, and no, I wouldn't write them off like you did, a Swift with the specs you described would be dead on arriival. The market has moved on from the M800 days

Go around, flag a few Maruti customers down, ask them how many BHPs does his car make, come back and lets get talking.

Worldwide perceptions hardly matter in India, Skoda is apparently low-rent in the west, here it holds its own against the biggest brands which are known for their bulletproof reliability.

Brings us back to our old argument, right? Skoda made it's name by giving us something new in that segment. They had as sort of the first mover advantage. Skoda's success in that segment proves that not all customers in all segments think alike.

A service centre in every nook and corner will be a deciding factor, as cars get more reliable, it will probably be the only factor. No one wants to waste a whole day at the exclusive service 100km from home.

A service center at every corner would be one deciding factor, but I wouldn't confuse that with reliability. And as cars get more reliable, the no of service centers do not matter. Even now, if I want a reliable car, I'd pick a Toyota and drive 100km for a service than a Maruti which has a service center next door.

[avira_tk]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

I don't understand what TSI is, but the Lancer, City and Astra were priced similar to the Baleno. They all sold well except Baleno. That shows that Maruti has no customers above the 7L mark.

SX4 is as heavy, cramped and similarly priced as its European competitors like the Fiesta and the Vento, give or take a few.

Go around, flag a few Maruti customers down, ask them how many BHPs does his car make, come back and lets get talking.

Brings us back to our old argument, right? Skoda made it's name by giving us something new in that segment. They had as sort of the first mover advantage. Skoda's success in that segment proves that not all customers in all segments think alike.

A service center at every corner would be one deciding factor, but I wouldn't confuse that with reliability. And as cars get more reliable, the no of service centers do not matter. Even now, if I want a reliable car, I'd pick a Toyota and drive 100km for a service than a Maruti which has a service center next door.

The TSI is a Laura, you know the one that has been discounted from day of launch. The other cars in the market sold well, the Baleno didn't, maybe because of brand obsession.

The Swift was the car in question here not the SX4, which managed with sales that may not be blockbuster but still a few of them around, new ones too.

You can flag down Mercedes customers who think their car is front wheel drive, doesn't mean a thing. The Swift has the looks they matter big time to practically every customer. Clean lines are not really favoured in small cars, a little flash is necessary, which is why Maruti sticker jobs happen all the time.

The Skoda brand image was an example, the topic was about Indian attitudes, not about Skoda in India.

The number of service centres matter because in parts of India, you have to make that appointment 2 weeks in advance and drive those 100kms. Its not a great experience. Toyota owners admit its irritating.

[narry]

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[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by ssh1979

I am with you when you say Hondas and Toyotas are more reliable. But I wish to suggest that they are reliable only with regular maintenance done on them (which may not be a costly affair at all). IMO, they are not abuse friendly. The Marutis are. For the average and below average Joe whose intention is just to get from place A to B, many just abuse the car in some form or the other (mostly unknowingly).

Well actually that is not very true. Toyotas and Honda take as much abuse as you want too. Infact that is one of the biggest USPs of Toyota. I doubt if all those Innovas have any regular servicing. Its more of road side keep the car running kind of servicing and they all keep running without a rattle. Infact from my personal experience one brand that can absorb a lo of abuse but still run is Tata. I have seen numerous really horribly kept Indicas still running relatively fine.

Originally Posted by avira_tk

The number of service centres matter because in parts of India, you have to make that appointment 2 weeks in advance and drive those 100kms. Its not a great experience. Toyota owners admit its irritating.

This is one of the biggest USP of Maruti. All other brands have equally good after sales service if not better. But the equation changes when you move away from the cities. This is where Maruti dominates since its been around for decades and most of its offerings are mass market offerings and hence the large volume of cars ensures that they have service centers all around. Otherwise I can vouch for Toyota's service in Delhi. But the same might not be true in smaller towns and hence people there are much more likely to go in for a Maruti.

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by avira_tk

The TSI is a Laura, you know the one that has been discounted from day of launch. The other cars in the market sold well, the Baleno didn't, maybe because of brand obsession.

Baleno was priced nowhere near Laura TSI. It was always below the 9L figure. You may call it brand obsession, but isn't it the same when I said that the "rich" does not like itself being seen associated with a cheap (VFM) brand like Maruti?

The Swift was the car in question here not the SX4, which managed with sales that may not be blockbuster but still a few of them around, new ones too.

SX4 is in the border where you would see Maruti sales starts tapering off. It is not that after 7L, people absolutely stop buying a Maruti.

You can flag down Mercedes customers who think their car is front wheel drive, doesn't mean a thing. The Swift has the looks they matter big time to practically every customer. Clean lines are not really favoured in small cars, a little flash is necessary, which is why Maruti sticker jobs happen all the time.

That was in response to the engine size thing. You felt that a 1.6MJD makes a difference, I said it would not. And, if looks finds buyers, how did Honda sell all those City ZXs, Hyundai sold all those first-gen Santros or Maruti sells all those dZires?

The Skoda brand image was an example, the topic was about Indian attitudes, not about Skoda in India.

Oh, what was the topic? Wasn't it about how/why Maruti dominates the industry?

The number of service centres matter because in parts of India, you have to make that appointment 2 weeks in advance and drive those 100kms. Its not a great experience. Toyota owners admit its irritating.

Citation needed.

[avira_tk]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

Baleno was priced nowhere near Laura TSI. It was always below the 9L figure. You may call it brand obsession, but isn't it the same when I said that the "rich" does not like itself being seen associated with a cheap (VFM) brand like Maruti?

SX4 is in the border where you would see Maruti sales starts tapering off. It is not that after 7L, people absolutely stop buying a Maruti.

That was in response to the engine size thing. You felt that a 1.6MJD makes a difference, I said it would not. And, if looks finds buyers, how did Honda sell all those City ZXs, Hyundai sold all those first-gen Santros or Maruti sells all those dZires?

Oh, what was the topic? Wasn't it about how/why Maruti dominates the industry?

Citation needed.

7 lakhs a long time ago, approximately Laura TSI territory today.

Honda ZX was cheaper than the model it replaced, spacious, fuel efficient and reliable, hence it sold. Santros were marketed aggressively and people liked the access, you walked into it, a big plus for older folks/people with back problems. Maruti dZire checked all the right boxes , a Maruti, cheap, fuel efficient and a boot (status symbol). Hope my analysis is correct.

The context was about first mover advantage not being the sole reason for success. The topic of the thread however is what you said.

Toyota dealers in Kerala, know quite a few people who find the service interval/advance appointment a pain as stated earlier. If Maruti maintains its service network, they will dominate in the foreseeable future. The metros might see Maruti lose dominance, outside that very few manufacturers care to expand and maintain any sort of service standard.

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

Those who were teens and above when Maruti came to India, are now 40+, and they are the main fans for Maruti nowadays. They are the ones who, at those times, experienced what quality and style is, when compared to HM and Padmini.

I am one of the then-teens, now-at-40 guys you referenced. And having been around archaic/unreliable/loud/unrefined Ambys & padminis till MUL came in, the M800 that we got in '85 (booked in '83, but the damned allotment system pushed us back by 2 years) was just an out-of-the-world experience (relative to what was available then). Strangely, my Dad who chose the M800, now wants to get a Skoda, while I would anyday prefer the bulletproof Jap reliability over EU build.

Originally Posted by civic-sense

Maruti can't sell anything above 7 lacs. The SX4 for is a sales dud; Kizashi and Grand Vitara are disasters.

If you think the SX4 was a sales dud, then what would you say of the old Fiesta and old Verna, which even with diesel models in their lineup, sold lesser than the SX4 even when SX4 was only-petrol. GV - in a country where even hatches sell only-diesel, who would buy a petrol-SUV ? Kizashi - now that could have been a good vehicle for MSIL to make a grand entry into the ~13-15 lakh segment. An awesome car screwed up by CBU prices. Hoping they would get kits down and assemble it locally to reduce the prices - would surely pick up one.

Originally Posted by civic-sense

Once you establish yourself as a cheap (VFM) brand, the rich would not want to be seen associating with that brand. So they move to Toyotas and Hondas.

LOL, with the SX4 and City selling at about the same price, wonder what is so rich about Honda compared to Suzuki. And even worse, we have the made-for-price Etios and Liva which have Toyota coming down to the dog-eat-dog hatch market. And that isn't cheap... Funny.

Originally Posted by Jignesh

The reason for SX4 selling very fow number in past was due to DZire. People we getting the same space & plus better fuel economy so the DZire was selling more at cost of SX4.

Indeed another reason for the low sales of SX4 was the Dzire.

Originally Posted by civic-sense

There is no evidence that suggests that, in 1982, when Maruti came with the 800, customers at that time craved for cheap, reliable, fuel-efficient automobiles.

If you were around then and saw the couple of examples that went around as cars till then, you would not need evidence to know what the customer wanted. And this was very well demonstrated in the demand for the car, even at a time when globalisation was yet to happen in India and people were not as flush with funds as they are today.

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

If you think the SX4 was a sales dud, then what would you say of the old Fiesta and old Verna, which even with diesel models in their lineup, sold lesser than the SX4 even when SX4 was only-petrol. GV - in a country where even hatches sell only-diesel, who would buy a petrol-SUV ? Kizashi - now that could have been a good vehicle for MSIL to make a grand entry into the ~13-15 lakh segment. An awesome car screwed up by CBU prices. Hoping they would get kits down and assemble it locally to reduce the prices - would surely pick up one.

SX4 ain't a dud if you compare it with, say Linea numbers. But for a company who contributes to half of the cars sold, it is definitely a dud. And, as I said 7L is where their sales start tapering off.

LOL, with the SX4 and City selling at about the same price, wonder what is so rich about Honda compared to Suzuki. And even worse, we have the made-for-price Etios and Liva which have Toyota coming down to the dog-eat-dog hatch market. And that isn't cheap... Funny.

It's not about what I think. It's about what the market thinks. There is nothing richer in the cars, but there is, in the brand name.

Indeed another reason for the low sales of SX4 was the Dzire.

Agree! "another" reason, not THE reason.

If you were around then and saw the couple of examples that went around as cars till then, you would not need evidence to know what the customer wanted. And this was very well demonstrated in the demand for the car, even at a time when globalisation was yet to happen in India and people were not as flush with funds as they are today.

Well, I am only a couple of years behind you, so I too saw all that happened in the 80s. My point was, customers were not really yearning for reliable cars when Maruti came. I wouldn't think people then ever believed when somebody told them that you can have cars that need not visit the garage for months. That was a time when "foren" magazines meant Sputnik and RD. We hardly knew what existed outside India.

[StarrySky]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

LOL, with the SX4 and City selling at about the same price, wonder what is so rich about Honda compared to Suzuki. And even worse, we have the made-for-price Etios and Liva which have Toyota coming down to the dog-eat-dog hatch market. And that isn't cheap... Funny.

Yes, Etios/Liva is cheap. But Toyota has developed a more premium brand image than Maruti and their cars were selling in the 9L+ bracket. So a cheap Toyota still attracts some buyers who think, "Now I too can buy a Toyota". Maruti built their VFM image selling cheaper cars. When they launch something in the 10L+ range, very few premium car buyers are going to think, "Now I too can buy a Maruti".

Even those who owned Marutis as their first car may not choose Maruti when it comes to premium cars - because buying a more premium brand brings more social status.