[Arnav_Kacker]

Lol you should see the way top gear(international) massacres the safari in the comments at the back of the mag.....they really convince you its as good as a rick

[sujaylahiri]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Many car manufacturers hire design houses for car design. This includes many race car makers, GM, Ford, Hyundai etc., As for the engine could you point to your source of information about it being a Renault or Peugot engine?

Search on Wikipedia or answers.com or click on the link http://www.answers.com/topic/tata-indica
Also if you check the specs for the Peugeot 206 1.4, you'll notice a lot of similarities with the power and torque output and the 2 valves per cylinder.

[tsk1979]

Wikipedia is the only place which mentions Peugot, but then on Wikipedia I can edit the article to say its a mercedes engine. Could you quote a authentic source like the peugot website or something? Any also by your logic then all the 8 valves/cylinder 1.4L IDI engines in the world are designed by Peugot, right?

Also the page mentions the indica to be 62KW thata 83BHP! So I guess they are talking about the petrol Indigo engine.

[sujaylahiri]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Wikipedia is the only place which mentions Peugot, but then on Wikipedia I can edit the article to say its a mercedes engine. Could you quote a authentic source like the peugot website or something? Any also by your logic then all the 8 valves/cylinder 1.4L IDI engines in the world are designed by Peugot, right?

Also the page mentions the indica to be 62KW thata 83BHP! So I guess they are talking about the petrol Indigo engine.

The Tata Indica's diesel is based on the Peugeot TUD5 engine. It has been slightly modified from it though. The TUD5 was also used in the Zen D and the Esteem D in its original form. It has also been used in numerous other cars.
http://www.domain-b.com/automotive/m...ata_indica.htm

http://www.cybersteering.com/cbmain/smlcars/indddx.html

http://www.carkeys.co.uk/features/industry/2003/516.asp

http://www.caravantraveltalk.com/car-rental.html

http://www.taxirentalindia.com/tata-indica-taxi.php

Also the 62 KW Tata Indica is one of the 2 options in South Africa (the other being 57 KW) with the same 1.4 L petrol engine. For reference go to www.motoring.co.za

In future before asking such questions, simply do a Google search and check it yourself. It'll make your life a lot easier.

[sbasak]

Off topic:

Wikipedia is the only place which mentions Peugot, but then on Wikipedia I can edit
the article to say its a mercedes engine.

Though Wikipedia articles can be edited by anyone - the changes are reviewed by an editorial team for correctness. So it is not that you can write there whatever you want.

[mxx]

Originally Posted by sujaylahiri

The Tata Indica is not even a pure Indian car as Tata claim it.
It was designed by an Italian company I.D.E.A Institute of Design in Turin, Italy (who designed the Palio) and its engine was sourced from Renault and Peugeot (for the diesel).

These days engines, designes and components are sourced from different companies. There is nothing new in it.

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by sujaylahiri

The Tata Indica's diesel is based on the Peugeot TUD5 engine. It has been slightly modified from it though. The TUD5 was also used in the Zen D and the Esteem D in its original form. It has also been used in numerous other cars.
http://www.domain-b.com/automotive/m...ata_indica.htm

http://www.cybersteering.com/cbmain/smlcars/indddx.html

http://www.carkeys.co.uk/features/industry/2003/516.asp

http://www.caravantraveltalk.com/car-rental.html

http://www.taxirentalindia.com/tata-indica-taxi.php

Also the 62 KW Tata Indica is one of the 2 options in South Africa (the other being 57 KW) with the same 1.4 L petrol engine. For reference go to www.motoring.co.za

In future before asking such questions, simply do a Google search and check it yourself. It'll make your life a lot easier.

I'm afraid none of your sources is authentic and reliable. There is a lot of trash available on the Internet that needs to be filtered, before forming opinions. Among the sources you quote are some car-hire companies! What more can one say.

There is a popular misconception that Indica's engine is Peugeot-derived. Partly, it is attributable to European journalists who, when called upon to review the Indica/City Rover, could not believe (nor wanted their readers to believe) that a third world company could design and manufacture cars. Hence, they misinterpreted Indica's French connection to mean that its engine was Peugeot-derived.

As a matter of fact, the Indica engine was designed and developed by Tata Motors indigenously. Had they copied Peugeot TUD-5, they would have been sued by the French company. On the other hand, had Tata Motors produced the engine under licence from Peugeot, they would not have concealed this fact. Rather, they would have highlighted this and benefitted from Peugeot's goodwill.

While designing the Indica, Tatas always had the international car market in mind. Therefore, they got the Indica engine "validated" from a French certifying agency to ensure that the engine gets certified as a Tata original and nobody challenges it as an unauthorised copy. That is the only French connection the Indica engine has had. It seems, some people mistook the connection for a collaboration with Peugeot or worse, a reverse engineering by Tata Motors, China-style. Come on guys, don't belittle the Tatas. Their car may not be the best in the market, but for years, they've had and still have, the best auto R&D facility in India, Maruti included. Their efforts should be encouraged by all Indians.

Sorry guys for getting off-topic, but I just couldn't resist this one.

[tsk1979]

Agree! I was also thinking on the same lines that how did TUD5 come into the picture. This was the first time I had heard such a thing. None of the Indian Auto mags had mentioned this even once.

[sujaylahiri]

Not 1 not 2 but 5 websites surely can't go wrong at the same time.The first 2 websites are Indian companies and I see no point where the foreign press jealousy comes in. Also there's nothing like 3rd world countries when it comes to India. If India was a 3rd world country, then Mercedes, Audi and now Volkswagen and BMW would have never thought of setting up shop here. There's nothing to be ashamed of using the TUD 5. Many manufacturers based their diesel engines on it since it was one of the most popular ones those days.
I think it's an attempt by TATA to hush up the whole matter and they have successfully managed to do it.
And when it comes to technical stuff, there's no sympathy factor involved for the company. Facts are facts. That's what the spirit should be.

[ranjan united]

Not to imply any1 in this forum is dumb or anything, but anyone who even has an ounce of TRUE interest in Indian cars knows that the Tata Indica's engine is derieved from the Peugeot TUD5, which from my reckoning, performancewise, was probarbly made in the late 18th century !!!! If u guys wanna insist that it is an all-indian engine, just chk with the Peugeot guys 1st. They are most likely laughing their assess off if we think that the engine is all-indian.

[Rock 'n' rollz]

Originally Posted by nevertouchme

TATA 207 Pick up trucks in Kuala Lumpur.

Seen one right in front of Colloseum in Rome.

[Mpower]

Fasinating theory, I dont think either party has concrete evidence to prove that they are right.

The TATA Indica engine is supposed to be a smaller version of the 483DL that debued in the TATAMOBILE 206 in 1990.

They may have some features common with TUD5 that were reverse engineered, but hey! everyone does that. TATA has designed plenty of
indigenous stuff like 407s that kick butt all over the world.

Like someone said, the European magazines take a lot of pleasure in downgrading Indian companies by claiming that its a Peugeot copy whereas in reality its nothing but speculation.

Unless some one does a teardown of both these engines, its impossible to really say

[thainogkok]

Maruti Suzuki plans to export 100,000 car a year
mainly to Europe from 2008-2009.

[zenx]

Yeah the whole peugeot story got going with the CityRover and was never denied or corrected. The Tatas did learn design from Merc during their early collaboration - but of late have had to reverse their Cummins-only engine decision since the inhouse ones were much better performers and resilient!

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by zenx

Yeah the whole peugeot story got going with the CityRover and was never denied or corrected. The Tatas did learn design from Merc during their early collaboration - but of late have had to reverse their Cummins-only engine decision since the inhouse ones were much better performers and resilient!

The reversing of the Cummins-only decision was attributable two reasons: (1) The Cummins engine was more expensive and hence made the end-product more expensive. This, the company could ill-afford at a time when the commercial vehicle industry was exhibiting a recessionary trend (All this happended a few years back, before the current boom started). (2) The second reason was that the vendors of the earlier TATA 697 engine were suddenly out of business (probably they were not chosen as vendors for the Cummins engine, in line with company's policy to reduce the number of vendors) and applied a lot of pressure on Tata Motors to reintroduce the older generation engine after altering it to ensure compliance with the new emission norms. Thereafter the 697 engine was re-introduced with a turbo added-on, to reduce emission. The Cummins engine did not require a turbo to comply with Euro-I standard which was prevailing at that time but the 697 did require.

Regarding the Indica engine controversy, the engine remains Indian officially and legally, having been certified as such by an international certifying agency, that too of French origin, even if the engine's design has been influenced by the TUD-5.