[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

There's a lot of ' holier than thou' on this thread, largely by petrol users. The tone of some of the posts smacks a bit of 'sour grapes' to me. Yes, it is true that there are lots of underprivileged people out there but this is precisely the point. The underprivilege is not of our making! Ask the government what it does with all our taxes rather than point fingers at other joes like ourselves, some of whom may be using Diesel. Using Diesel itself is not a crime because it is subsidized. My suggestion to any petrol user who feels badly in this, is to chuck his petrol vehicle and buy a diesel one, if he feels that badly! But stop pointing fingers at guys who may have Beemers and Mercs or any other. Consider that most MLA's and MP's in this country feel like they are losing their collective mojo's if they are seen driving anything less than a big fat SUV. Alsoconsider the state of the surfaces we drive on before pointing fingers at private SUV owners! This might be an unpopular post, but the truth usually hurts!

I agree with you completely, except that you seem to pass all blame on the others, viz MLAs, MPs etc. We are all being victimized, and there is no solution in sight.

What you are doing is well within legal limits. And I wouldn't ask you to be "patriotic" etc, because you have every right to "utilize" the diesel subsidy. But, I would want the govt to act immediately to stop the loot. It might be benefiting you at the moment, but it's unfair to the rest of the country, and not good for the economy in the long run.

[PatchyBoy]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

There's a lot of ' holier than thou' on this thread, largely by petrol users. The tone of some of the posts smacks a bit of 'sour grapes' to me.

This might be an unpopular post, but the truth usually hurts!

From - here

"Just consider. Every time petrol prices are raised, oil companies end up losing more money. Simply because the price differential between petrol and diesel increases further, and people gravitate towards diesel vehicles. More the use of diesel, more the oil companies bleed. Worse, we all bleed because diesel vehicles add to toxic pollution in our cities, which, in turn, adds to ill health and treatment costs.

This is very well understood. Yet nobody will do anything to fix the trend.

Today, it makes more sense for the next car buyer to buy an expensive personal car but run it on the subsidised diesel. Today, according to government’s own estimates, the use of diesel in personal vehicles has zoomed. Some 15 per cent of the current consumption of diesel is in passenger cars. The agricultural sector uses less—12 per cent of the country’s diesel. This busts the myth that diesel prices are kept low for reasons of public policy. In fact, keeping the price low but allowing its use in the private transport sector is clearly a deliberate policy to use the poor person’s fuel to subsidise the rich.

Oil companies also say that the under-recovery in diesel is now costing them big time. It is estimated that Rs 67,500 crore is lost annually in under-recovery on account of diesel alone. This is roughly 60 per cent of the total losses of the companies. Assuming that private cars consume 15 per cent of the diesel, the direct subsidy to car owners is over Rs 10,000 crore. This is socialism Indian style: taxing the poor to pay the rich. With each increase in the price of petrol, this gap widens. Bad for oil companies; worse for the environment.

The claim of car companies that the modern diesel vehicle is clean is far from true. Emission data shows current diesel cars emit seven times more particulates and three to five times more nitrogen oxides than petrol cars. There is sufficient evidence that tiny particulates—PM 2.5—emitted from a diesel vehicle are toxic and carcinogenic. This toxin is firmly associated with significant increase in cases of asthma, lung diseases, chronic bronchitis and heart ailments. Long-term exposure can cause lung cancer. Diesel vehicles, however fancy and fitted, are costing us our health.

Today, Europe, which promoted diesel vehicles, is paying a heavy cost. It is struggling to meet air quality standards, even though it has invested heavily in the cleanest of fuels reducing sulfur levels to near-zero and has fitted vehicles with every kind of anti-pollution gizmos like particulate traps and de-NOx catalyst. Diesel also has higher levels of black carbon, which is today understood to be a key contributor to climate change. In the US, the car mecca, where emission standards and price do not differentiate between fuels, there is no market for diesel cars.

So why does Indian policy continue to provide this perverse incentive to pollute? The irony is that there is no policy that allows this use. It is a loophole. Car manufacturers struck gold when they realised that they could sell more vehicles if they could run them on cheaper and subsidised fuel. They exploit the fact that diesel price is kept lower because of its use for transportation of essential goods and for public transport—trucks use some 37 per cent of the diesel consumed and buses 12 per cent. They also know that dual pricing of fuel—different diesel prices for cars and buses or tractors—cannot be operated. They merrily exploit this helplessness.

Government agencies know this. They make all the right noises about the need to fix the price distortion. The market types glibly talk about the need to deregulate diesel. They say this because they know that even though they sit in power, they cannot remove government control over the price of this fuel, which is also essential for railways, transport of public goods and agriculture. They know that the inflationary impact of raising diesel price will be high; they know it will be opposed. But they use this convenient cover to do nothing about the most glaring of distortions—the use of the subsidised fuel by the rich and for private transport.

But given the rising economic cost and pollution, the option of doing nothing is not acceptable anymore. The options are either to link the price with emission standards or to ban production of personal diesel vehicles. If this is not possible, then the government should tax diesel vehicles—200 to 300 per cent of the price of the vehicle—to remove the fiscal distortion in price and policy. Our neighbour Sri Lanka has done so. In India, committee after committee has recommended that this be done. But it is not done.

Clearly, the lobby for big diesel is powerful. Clearly, it sits in glitzy chambers of commerce, which can bend policy to suit purse and purpose. It’s sad and deadly."

True that - The truth does hurt. I am not posting this as a counter argument for the "sour-grapes" theory. Just an effort to make sure that the understanding is correct. I agree with the POV of the end-user not being held responsible for exploiting the system. Afterall, it is the Archer's fault, why blame the arrow?

Thanks,
Rajan

[shankar.balan]

I really appreciate all that you said Rajan, civic sense and wilful. I hate the way the system benefits only a few while ignoring the many. This makes me think is India, like France in 1789 ready and ripe for a revolution against the political class system or not?
Personally I would be skeptical because we are innately quite lazy and disunited. In general we seem to conform to the following thought- behaviour pattern; if the pain doesn't affect me personally then why should I make an effort to rid the world of it."
And this attitude really is our failing. Me included!

[PatchyBoy]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

Personally I would be skeptical because we are innately quite lazy and disunited. In general we seem to conform to the following thought- behaviour pattern; if the pain doesn't affect me personally then why should I make an effort to rid the world of it."
And this attitude really is our failing. Me included!

couldn't agree with you more. To add to it, we seem to always think, someone will come and do something about all this - then we will be saved

Rajan

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by PatchyBoy

couldn't agree with you more. To add to it, we seem to always think, someone will come and do something about all this - then we will be saved

Rajan

Its called Karma! We are strong believers in fate and destiny and a 'divine' scheme or ordainment of things - not the ideal candidates to take our destinies in our own hands!

[Gansan]

The diesel pricing will have to implode sooner than later. Sale of diesel cars is already up and may pretty soon overtake petrol cars. A diesel Wagon-R seems to be already in the pipe line. What happens if the grand daddy of all, a diesel Alto, and the diesel Nanos are born?

[libranof1987]

I end up spending just about less than 10% of my monthly expenses on fuel; and this is when I don't use the car to get to office.

What I've noticed is - right since I've been responsible for petrol bills to now; petrol has grown about Rs. 20/l and this hasn't really got my allocate more money towards fuel. Yes, I won't use the car when I can find an equally comfortable option or go out on lesser drives.

So, petrol hikes don't really affect my finances - because, when I need to use the car, I still use the car. At times, when I can use without it or not use the a/c, I don't. Things would be different had I been taking the car to office.

Petrol hike sure does affect driving habits though.

[patil]

Hi all,
Well the hike in fuel prices dont really affect my finances much or not at all but they definetely do affect the finances of my clients who will have to pay me higher fees and as and when the prices of things go up the burden is definetely shifted on my clients. Well I am a lawyer basically.

[sandeepmdas]

Apropos with Ms. Sunita Narain's article (posted by Patchyboy), the referece about diesel vehicles in Sri Lanka is not correct as of now. Please note that I am not disputing the rest of the article, nor supporting it. Let me point out a factorial mistake in it.

The article states that "then the government should tax diesel vehicles—200 to 300 per cent of the price of the vehicle—to remove the fiscal distortion in price and policy. Our neighbour Sri Lanka has done so." However, while a 350% tax can applicable to certain diesel vehicles, this based on the seating/CC capacity. Secondly the difference in tax between a petrol and a diesel car is between 21 to 75%.

"
(In SL from Mar 31 2012) the hybrid cars are slapped with a new production tax from 14 - 57% and a total tax of 65 - 125% while for regular petrol cars the final tax will range from 200 - 275% depending on the engine capacity.

The taxes for diesel cars have been raised from current 180% to 250% for a car under 1600cc and from a current 291% to 350% for a car over 2500 cc.

Taxes on petrol-driven vans have been raised from the current 103 - 172% to 125 - 200% depending on the number of passengers. Taxes on diesel vans have been increased from a range of 112 - 291% to 125 - 350%."

Source: http://www.colombopage.com/archive_1...33179265CH.php

[SmartCat]

Personally, I hate the petrol subsidizing diesel debate, and how petrol and diesel should be priced similarly - because the debate goes on and on like Duracell batteries on steroids. And I dislike the diesel is dirtier than petrol debate too, for the same reason.

To me, its pretty much clear that fuel prices form a small percentage of overall expenses for the majority. That's why I think fuel price and fuel price hikes are receiving more attention that they actually should. And no, I don't think Team-BHP consists of only elite bunch of people, loaded to the gills with money. I can bet one litre of petrol that financial status of TBHP members pretty much reflects the financial status of private vehicle owners of India, give or take a few percentage points.

It's a known fact that FOOD EXPENSES form the majority of expenses for financially less fortunate people, both in urban and rural India. What I'm trying to say is - prices of commodities go up over a period of time. As long as the overall pace of fuel price growth is not extraordinarily high, one should learn to live with it.

So what about the salesman or courier-wallah who uses his two-wheeler for work? Tough to answer the question without sounding like an insensitive jerk. We'll just have to remember that there are 300 million other less fortunate people than this sales guy - those who use kerosene for cooking (for example), to whom the government creditably sells the fuel for Rs. 5 per litre.

"What Will The Poor Do" debate is best left for TV shows hosted by Sagarika Ghose or Arnab Goswami or that Kargil lady (forget her name all the time)

[carwatcher]

Originally Posted by PatchyBoy

Clearly, the lobby for big diesel is powerful. Clearly, it sits in glitzy chambers of commerce, which can bend policy to suit purse and purpose. It’s sad and deadly.

The most vulgar example we saw in case of Rajasthan Govt (my native) where after Union Budget was passed and there was an increase of some 2% tax on vehicles costing more than 10-15 lac (can't recollect the exact figure but it was the highest slab), the Raj. Govt immediately provide a relief of same % by reduction in state govt tax. I am not aware it was opposed or not.

[PatchyBoy]

Originally Posted by smartcat

Personally, I hate the petrol subsidizing diesel debate, and how petrol and diesel should be priced similarly - because the debate goes on and on like Duracell batteries on steroids. And I dislike the diesel is dirtier than petrol debate too, for the same reason.

Respect your POV. So please do tell me, what is the idea behind this poll? My fuel expenses were 2% of my disposable income in 2006 and is now 1.75%. How does this statistic help? Just demonstarates that my disposable income has been growing faster than the petrol price raise or, my driving has reduced.

I would not have responded to this POV. But you started this thread and poll, so felt that this post of yours contradicts the purpose of this thread.

Rajan

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by PatchyBoy

Respect your POV. So please do tell me, what is the idea behind this poll? My fuel expenses were 2% of my disposable income in 2006 and is now 1.75%. How does this statistic help? Just demonstarates that my disposable income has been growing faster than the petrol price raise or, my driving has reduced.

I would not have responded to this POV. But you started this thread and poll, so felt that this post of yours contradicts the purpose of this thread.

Rajan

Just 2%? Then probably you won't feel the pinch. When I was using my wagonR for daily run, my monthly fuel expense was around 40% of my take away income.

Luckily I'm on a diesel diet these days. But still it comes near 25% of my take away salary.

[PatchyBoy]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Just 2%? Then probably you won't feel the pinch. When I was using my wagonR for daily run, my monthly fuel expense was around 40% of my take away income.

Luckily I'm on a diesel diet these days. But still it comes near 25% of my take away salary.

It is not about me feeling the pinch or not. My fuel expenses have gone up by Rs.900 a month, post the hike. I would have been a lot happier to give that amount as a hike to my domestic help, rather than to the skewed diesel pricing policy, which takes my money, so all the private diesel car owners can save some money.

As I have mentioned earlier too, I have nothing against private diesel car owners. When I was in the market for a car, I had the option of buying a diesel vehicle too. I chose petrol for my own reasons.

I will not claim that I am patriot and my conscience did not permit me to buy diesel and all such dramatic statements. If I did, I would be lying. My grouse is against the Auto makers who hit a jackpot by exploiting the diesel subsidy loophole and the government for not doing anything about it.

Rajan

[amitayu]

ON TOPIC

with monthly consumption of around 35 litres, a rise in prices by 7.50 makes a difference of only Rs 262.50 for me!
ofcourse it is early days for me.