[amitwlele]

Originally Posted by Modifiedsachin

On a dispenser you may see attendant showing a TAG (On some BPCL outlets the TAGs are given in form of a wrist strap and they show it) before starting the delivery.

(This is much similar to our office ID cards which we present to a reader and the door opens)

Now that you mention the tag i can recollect a couple of instances on some pumps where the attendant did swipe/scan one tag before dispensing the fuel. Did not give much thought to it at that time.

[EasyR1der]

Just a little off the main topic, i was reading a similar article online which mentions something called the EVAP System.
"evaporative emissions control system (called an EVAP system in automotive jargon), which collects evaporated fuel from the fuel tank in a charcoal-filled canister while the engine is stopped, and then releases the collected vapors into the engine intake for burning when the engine is running (usually only after it has reached normal operating temperature). "


I was wondering if any of the cars in India have EVAP systems as the temp. variation causes a lot of petrol loss due to evaporation.

[ajman28]

It's a great opening post, but unfortunately quite a few of the facts are bloated up. So I wouldn't support it completely. Atleast there are other posts which have corrected the data subsequently.

All petrol pumps are audited by the Weights & Measurements department regularly. There is a margin for short filling at the pump and this (in lay-man's terms) is almost equal to a teaspoon of fuel in a 5 ltr can! Added to this, the modern dispensing units are quite difficult to tamper with.

Well, one can always cheat a customer if one is determined to do it. So as a consumer, we have to be sharp and keep our eyes open. Isn't this true across all sectors?

Originally Posted by Jignesh

Then one day at Rajkot, a Petrol Pump attendent told me that they (Petrol Pump Owners) mix additives in Normal Petrol & sell it as Premium Fuel. Shocked by this fact, I have stopped filling premium petrol, but just think of Dealers margin here.

Premium fuel is nothing but normal petrol/diesel added with some additives. Very often this additive is simply poured into the large storage tanks we see at the OMC depots. Some depots do have automated mixing and this will give better results since the fuel and the additive will be mixed better.

The dealers do not add additives directly at the petrol pump. If this is being done in your location then please report it to the OMC.

Originally Posted by Driving_Nomad

If you walk-in to a pump with a bottle (say a soft drink pet bottle of 1 or 2L capacity) and ask it to be filled, the guys at the petrol bunk always direct you to one particular pump (Have done this more than a fifty times in 4 years during my college days and this has invariably been the case). Has anyone experienced this? Does it mean that, that one pump is calibrated to exactly dispense 1000ml?

The bottles usually have a very small hole and the petrol pumps nozzle very often do not fit into it. Most of the petrol stations have one or two pumps with small nozzles for customers who come with the bottle and they will direct you to those designated pumps. By the way, it is not recommended to carry fuel in disposable bottles. If you do need to carry fuel, then please ensure you use a jerry can.

@Mods: Is there any way to put the posts from Born_2_Be_Wild, akhilesh51 & Modifiedsachin in the first page itself? Many of us read only the first page and straightaway post our views on the subject without reading the subsequent pages. In this particular case, quite a few important factors are missing in the first page.

[Jignesh]

Originally Posted by ajman28

@Mods: Is there any way to put the posts from Born_2_Be_Wild, akhilesh51 & Modifiedsachin in the first page itself? Many of us read only the first page and straightaway post our views on the subject without reading the subsequent pages. In this particular case, quite a few important factors are missing in the first page.

Hello,

Even I support the request made above.

Really Born_2_Be_Wild, akhilesh51 & Modifiedsachin have improved over knowledge with their valuable posts. They have given raw facts that are generally discounted or ignored by Fuel Consumers.

I sincerely appreciate Mmodifiedsachin technical explanations & Born_2_Be_Wild, akhilesh51' practical clarification based on their own experience.

Thanks,

[Born 2 Be Wild]

Originally Posted by ajman28

It's a great opening post, but unfortunately quite a few of the facts are bloated up. So I wouldn't support it completely. Atleast there are other posts which have corrected the data subsequently.

All petrol pumps are audited by the Weights & Measurements department regularly. There is a margin for short filling at the pump and this (in lay-man's terms) is almost equal to a teaspoon of fuel in a 5 ltr can! Added to this, the modern dispensing units are quite difficult to tamper with.


Premium fuel is nothing but normal petrol/diesel added with some additives. Very often this additive is simply poured into the large storage tanks we see at the OMC depots. Some depots do have automated mixing and this will give better results since the fuel and the additive will be mixed better.


The bottles usually have a very small hole and the petrol pumps nozzle very often do not fit into it.

Exactly what i have been saying again and again some facts are very bloated and paint a wrong picture!

in delhi and as in most india the weights & measures deptt is a royal pain. And dealers themselves are to blame for this royal mess. Earliar till about 2003 - 2005 most pumps had particular machines at the site which were speciffically running short to the tune off 500 ml per 5 litres and this was in connivance with the W&M deppt as well as omc officials.

Sometime in 2004 the ministry of petroleum decided enough is enough and all this has to stop. Strict directives were issued to curb this problem of short delivery and adulteration. On being caught licenses were terminated so most dealers out of fear of loosing the dealership stopped doing it. However some dint and eventually were terminated thats why during that period in about 2 years approx 10 pumps is delhi were sealed and turned to temp coco's

Now the point i was making is the omc officials got very strict they had 0 % tolerance to cheating and hence dealers stopped running their machines short but here lies the issue W&M deppt illegal bread and butter went out the window now and they werent mighty pleased about it either so they started bothering the dealers by dealying stamping and bringing larger measures to inspect the machines which they do till date now dealers with high output werent willing to let this nuisance affect their business hence kept paying them.

Ealier permissible limit of delivery was 15 ml +/- for 5 litres but because of harrasment from W&M deppt the ministry under protest from dealers increased it to +/- 25 ml for 5 litres which is less then a tea spoon full and no machine on this planet can give 100 % accuracy of 5000ml for 5000ml. Due to varying temperatures machines always sway by 15 ml plus or minus.



Out of the 3 omc bpcl has their premium fuel tanks interconnected so they pump the fuel from one tank to the other and back so as to mix the additive and fuel properly.

Also loose sale of petrol in plastic bottles is strictly prohibited. And as you mentioned very correctly the bottles have very small openings and not all nozzles fit.

[Born 2 Be Wild]

Originally Posted by Modifiedsachin

This is what the document says, where it says 0.15% for Diesel & 0.59% for Petrol (MS), but when I asked to field service engineers and they said that the monthly consolidation is done on fix 4% evaporation.

And the document clearly says that in case of COCO (As this is a snap from the document for COCO which I referred) the loss is absorbed by
Oil Company for the limits given above.

" http://www.iocl.com/Talktous/COCO170310.PDF " Page 10 last para

I prefer to stick to the facts published & known from actual field. But leave the choice to you all.
Well the only intention was if the losses are absorbed by Oil Companies then the probability of tampering for covering the losses reduces. So once again we benefit. And that's what the document published by INDIAN OIL states.

Its true that you have stuck to facts but unfortunately these are incorrectly brought to context by you and let me tell you why.

1. The document you have published as a link if you read carefully is for "Service providers" for the omc's coco pumps and they were appointed for just a period of 3 years

2. All expenses for maintanence labour costs and electricity at theese sites is borne by the oil companies and thats why the service provider gets a reduced commision.

The role of the service provider is to supervise the staff and manage the operations and interact with the customers.

Hence the oil company absorbs the loss!

Also fyi the concept of service providors is now defunct atleast in hpcl it is.

[i74js]

I have had this unpleasant experience at the Ashok Tourist Service Station (IOCL Dealer), Niti Marg, New Delhi, where the density of diesel delivered was wrong (showing 745 kg/m3 instead of 830 kg/m3) and while I was advised to see the duty manager, fuel was delivered in my car without consent and without showing me the final reading. There was no explanation provided to me by the duty manager at the fuel station, although when I submitted the feedback on IOCL website, I received a call and was explained that the machines installed at the pump are new and have not been calibrated at yet. Amazed but helpless because the panel on machine says pre calibrated whereas IOCL customer care says - it is pending !

[rock75]

Actually the company should supply more than billed quantity to the dealer to compensate for the loss due to evaporation etc just like in vitamins overages are added to compensate for any loss!

[Modifiedsachin]

Originally Posted by i74js

I have had this unpleasant experience at the Ashok Tourist Service Station (IOCL Dealer), Niti Marg, New Delhi, where the density of diesel delivered was wrong (showing 745 kg/m3 instead of 830 kg/m3) and while I was advised to see the duty manager, fuel was delivered in my car without consent and without showing me the final reading. There was no explanation provided to me by the duty manager at the fuel station, although when I submitted the feedback on IOCL website, I received a call and was explained that the machines installed at the pump are new and have not been calibrated at yet. Amazed but helpless because the panel on machine says pre calibrated whereas IOCL customer care says - it is pending !

Hi the unit which has a density display, has two options

1. Connect a Density Probe in the tank & via automation system get the density value --> You get correct Density of fuel
2. Manually enter the density value --> here it purely depends on what is entered.

In India almost all the outlets (Excluding very few) does not have density probes. They do have tank gauges to give automated Tank delivery & remaining volume, but not density prob. So 99.99% the value you saw was a manually entered Value.

Originally Posted by rock75

Actually the company should supply more than billed quantity to the dealer to compensate for the loss due to evaporation etc just like in vitamins overages are added to compensate for any loss!

Many times the delivery trucks have a direct line going to their tanks from the main 4KL tank.
It was said correctly that while decanting entire fuel i.e. 0:0 is not done & some remains in the tank may be few liters. And the drivers know it very well that it is there.

So the moment Oil company gives more the issue does not reduce but increases.
This is in my understanding, and there might be many more reasons for not doing so.

[Modifiedsachin]

Originally Posted by Born 2 Be Wild

Its true that you have stuck to facts but unfortunately these are incorrectly brought to context by you and let me tell you why.

1. The document you have published as a link if you read carefully is for "Service providers" for the omc's coco pumps and they were appointed for just a period of 3 years

2. All expenses for maintanence labour costs and electricity at theese sites is borne by the oil companies and thats why the service provider gets a reduced commision.

The role of the service provider is to supervise the staff and manage the operations and interact with the customers.

Hence the oil company absorbs the loss!

Also fyi the concept of service providors is now defunct atleast in hpcl it is.

Hay Thanks,
A little bit OFF TPOIC:
This is the second time I am benefited by forum discussions.
Till date the document I showed was one of the Requirement Inputs with us & was never updated by MKTING. Service personals also continued stating 4%, and the same was implemented in automation S/W, now after your clarification I called a meeting & then the MKTING agreed that the things have changed & they will revert with the latest guidelines. Thanks once again.

[Born 2 Be Wild]

Originally Posted by Modifiedsachin

Till date the document I showed was one of the Requirement Inputs with us & was never updated by MKTING.

MKTING agreed that the things have changed & they will revert with the latest guidelines. Thanks once again.

As i have known from expeeience marketing ppl at the omc's are unique, you have to run after there lives to get work done

The only place they are on top of their game is how far behind dealers are on lube targets lol

[ajman28]

Originally Posted by Born 2 Be Wild

The only place they are on top of their game is how far behind dealers are on lube targets lol

...and adding more dealers in their region!!

[akhilesh51]

... and throwing lavish parties for their chairman / MD etc when they visit them on tours. Last I saw, a Chairman's daily spend on tour was a whopping 10L per day.

Sorry for being

[devansn]

Originally Posted by EasyR1der

Just a little off the main topic, i was reading a similar article online which mentions something called the EVAP System.
"evaporative emissions control system (called an EVAP system in automotive jargon), which collects evaporated fuel from the fuel tank in a charcoal-filled canister while the engine is stopped, and then releases the collected vapors into the engine intake for burning when the engine is running (usually only after it has reached normal operating temperature). "


I was wondering if any of the cars in India have EVAP systems as the temp. variation causes a lot of petrol loss due to evaporation.

If I am not wrong, the Fiat cars (Punto and Linea) has this system. I remember having being told about this when we got a chance to visit their factory in Ranjangaon.

[EasyR1der]

Originally Posted by devansn

If I am not wrong, the Fiat cars (Punto and Linea) has this system. I remember having being told about this when we got a chance to visit their factory in Ranjangaon.

In US even "gasoline" when stored in tanks is stored at different temperatures during summers and winters to avoid evaporation and counter expansion.

I think its must for India too where Climate variations are extreme.