[Daewood]

Originally Posted by 46TheDoctor

A lot of developed nations with high population density import their food, are we in a position to do that when we have so much cultivable land in our country.

We are already importing most of our edible oils and lentils/pulses. Reason is our agricultural output per acre is very low, because of many factors like availability of water source, poor farming techniques, etc.
When you want to elevate the country's standard of living, you can't have 60-70% of the population toiling in agricultural fields for meager incomes. Solution is to show the unproductive agricultural laborer, far better earning opportunities. Only if the percentage of agricultural labour reduces to around 20% we have a chance of being called an ex-poor country. And that can happen only if other fields like manufacturing are also encouraged in a balanced manner.

[GTO]

Moderator Note : Please stick to the topic.

[46TheDoctor]

Originally Posted by GTO

Moderator Note : Please stick to the topic.

Mods, can you please provide a seperate thread/link in this thread for some off topic but important discussions regarding this thread? I have a few more important points to be brought in front but, you have stopped me now.
It would be really nice if you can do that.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by anuragn

Good point. And additionally, if more nations start planning to become net importers of food grain, where will they import it from? Cutlivable land is also a limited resource.

I am not sure if we all know this fact: Large companies based in India and China have already purchased/leased huge tracts of cultivable land in African nations which are then used to grow food and cash crops. These companies have their own storage and processing plants and ships which then transport these food items back to India and China. Infact majority of our supermarkets stock foods imported from our own African farms!!.

Doesnt this seem so similar to East India company's antics some 400 years back? Life turns a full circle!!!

[nanduchitnis]

The Govt of India is committed to give a big push to the Infrastructure Industry which includes

* Ports and Airports.
* Highways, Bridges, Freeways.
* FDI in various sectors.
* Public transportation systems.
* Energy: Including Solar, Wind, Nuclear.

Mr Montek Singh is furiously working on this in the Planning Commission.

Once the Policy Initiatives are in place, automatically the demand in the Auto and many other sectors will explode like a SuperNova, no matter what the fuel price.

Lets hope for the best.

The points and counter points notably by 46TheDoctor has opened up a stimulating debate way beyond the stated objectives of the thread.

We rode out the recession of 2007-2009 very well. Maybe we can do the same again .
We have to be OPTIMISTIC and contribute to ramp up India which ever way we can, rather than just blame Govts, who have responsibilities way beyond just the Auto Sector.

My 2 Cents.

[esteem_lover]

One more small point from my side;

Increase in the cost of cars or fuel is not going to stop our folks from buying cars, it never has.

A person buying a car for 5L will not stop buying it for 5.4L, he needs it, he buys it. The average middle class tax payer STILL has not compromised his lifestyle due to this unstable economy. Just my .02.

If the car industry is going down, it is only due to the fact that most of the manufacturing sector is also going down due to various reasons, cannot blame the govt for just one industry.

[samarjitdhar]

Originally Posted by nanduchitnis

* Ports and Airports.
* Highways, Bridges, Freeways.
* FDI in various sectors.
* Public transportation systems.
* Energy: Including Solar, Wind, Nuclear.

And how is this going to be funded by this already cash strapped government?

Originally Posted by nanduchitnis

Mr Montek Singh is furiously working on this in the Planning Commission.

On a lighter note good to note that he is not solely focusing on building access controlled designer toilets

Originally Posted by nanduchitnis

We rode out the recession of 2007-2009 very well. Maybe we can do the same again .

There were various reasons for it including under exposure to the instruments which caused the mayhem in 2007-2009. Thanks to our RBI which still uses a little bit of sanity though this is all here.

Originally Posted by esteem_lover

A person buying a car for 5L will not stop buying it for 5.4L, he needs it, he buys it. The average middle class tax payer STILL has not compromised his lifestyle due to this unstable economy. Just my .02.

Provided he can afford it and feels that he can continue to afford it given more difficult economic circumstances in the future. If a petrol price rise hangs like a Damocles sword all the time due to the tax trigger happy government why would any average family take undue risks? To what would you attribute then the falling sales of cars in both petrol and diesel categories?

[Bh.P]

Some posts in this thread seem to indicate that government is trying to increase petrol price and duty on diesel cars to create a barrier.

Petrol is now purely controlled by market forces. However, I agree that it is heavily taxed, and government should consider reducing taxes, given that increased base price will yield the same returns to government at lower tax rates.

On the diesel, I think the purpose of increasing the tax is not to create a barrier and move people to buy petrol, but to better direct the burden of subsidy on diesel. I fail to understand why my tax outgo should be used by a person driving a Mercedes, or for that matter, even a Swift VDI. Differential pricing of diesel is very complicated and I am sure we Indians are extremely smart and will get around any process/checks to get the cheaper version. So, one of the logical ways is to charge the diesel car users upfront rather than remove the subsidies for every one and cause panic.

Even if the duty on diesel cars is increased, I believe people will still continue to prefer them over petrol, due to the better mileage. Which is sad, because they are more polluting (which is what I remember reading). Probably after a few years, government will add a environment cess to diesel cars if this becomes true.

[46TheDoctor]

This is clearly off topic but important considering this discussion, so i would like to post it as my last post on this thread.

Enough has been discussed about having cars in a sustainable manner on this thread, but, i see a lot of members asking "Why is it always the indian middleclass which suffers?"
My answer is "Only for not voting".

Let me give you my perspective on this:

Ours is a democratic govt. which functions on polls and effectively active participation of the various members. So, currently what happens is Rich (bussiness houses) finance the elections for candidates of their choice so as to influence govt policies afterwards for their profit making ways. Our candidates use this finance to buy votes of EBC (economically backwards class) and majority of middleclass celebrate election day as holiday and not voting, resulting in total voting % of approx. 50% which involves huge % of paid and bogus votes.
Afterwards, what this elected member does is:
1. Promote greedy policies of his financers because A) He owes them, B) In the hopes they will finance him again.
2. He also makes sure that he does not disappoint his vote bank but keeps them poor and ignorant enough to sell their votes again in the next poll.
3. He ignores the middleclass (in his responsibilities) and milks them in the interest of his Financers and Votebank.

So, it doesn't matter at all how much the middleclass cry, complain only because they don't figure in anywhere in this equation of polls and votebanks and things are not going to change unless they come into Power.

And how can middleclass come into Power? Contesting any election is no more in the capacity of the middleclass. So, I would like to suggest a simple plan as follows which does not need any help from govt. and can be implemented by anyone:

1. Vote Religiouly in every poll:
People greatly underestimate the power of voting. If our entire middleclass votes, our voting % will easily reach 85-90% (from currently 50%) and no politician will be able to ignore the middleclass if they are such a huge votebank. If he does, he will surely loose next polls.
So, make sure you vote religiously in every poll no matter how hopeless the candidates are. Atleast, make them notice you as a strong votebank which cant be ignored. Good candidates who are sitting on the fence, will enter later on when they will see the possibility of their deposits not getting forfeited .
Also make sure everyone in your family and friend circle does the same.

2. Create awareness in EBC:
EBC votes religiously because they get paid for their votes (as well as the bogus votes) and we deal with a lot of people from EBC on daily basis like our housekeeping staff and labour, chauffers, guards, etc. Make sure you educate them against selling their votes, which will not take more than few minutes of our life but, can create huge difference to the poll outcomes by this simple act of responsible behaviour.

Developed countries dont have any paid votes in their polls so, lower voting % doesn't affect them. But, our case is different. So, pls spread the word if you agree with me.

Having spent 80 % of my life as a middleclass i sincerely dont see any other way out for the middleclass out of their difficulties than this.

Any democracy can survive only on the active participants of it's members and not otherwise. Remember that voting is not only our basic right but, also a basic responsibility.

[RGK]

Friend working in Visteon said " Already there is no new work except for XUV 500, bolero and the industry has stopped all new projects. If the excise duty is raised, it may lead to a heavy downfall".

This stupid idea had also defered lot of second hand diesel car sales as the resale value may hit the roof.

[fiestarry]

Originally Posted by GTO

Attachment 942045

Still, car penetration levels in India remain at a pitiful level of <20 per 1,000 Indians. The same for developed nations is between 500 - 700 per 1,000 citizens.
Michael Boneham - President & MD of Ford India - had this to share:
To such an important industry, is the Government supposed to provide stimulus or deterrence?

I have immense regard for the work that GTO has put in to make this forum a high quality and popular one.
Having said that, I think there is a strong need for us all Indians to realize that this dream of 'double digit 'growth and a 100% industrialised nation with car penetration of 2 per family etc is essentially a flawed and dangerous one.
Michael Boneham will say what he says and more because it is in car manufacture ands sales that his company's future lies. Or so he believes.
We are all fast becoming victims of western influenced greed. Greed for money, material possessions, uninhibited fun, gizmos and a lot more unmentionables. Industrialisation has never been a TOTAL solution and can never be one.
As part of people over 40, I can say that despite all the negatives, before liberalisation we were very happy that the air was much cleaner, water less polluted and the roads were way less crowded. Cities were congested but not as they are today. Life was tough but is it any better today. Hospitals were more humanitarian and not totally in pursuit of moolah. Schools were still places of learning and not the crass commercial complexes they are today. People had time for each other, their relatives and BP, cholestrol and sugar problems were largely what others had. Heart attacks at 40 were the luxury of only the filthy rich and movie stars. Padminis and Contessas ruled but public transport met our requirement.

Back to the topic started by GTO. Why should we have more cars? Why should the Govt help this industry crowd our cities further? Why should we all breathe more polluted air? Why should we pay astronomical real estate prices?
Because of the flawed idea in our minds that money, possessions etc are the only measure of success. If we change that and learn to be content with minimal luxury and spare more time for gentle recreation, filial relations, bonding with children, nature and environmental protection, care for domestic animals, protection of wildlife etc we would have lived a much more fulfilling life than hurtling down a six lane highway at redline speeds.
Petrolheads or dieselheads, all are heading only one way...downhill. Learn to be gentle with people, with the environment and they will all be gentle with you.

[rdhan]

SAD is all I can say is the state of Government today!! The solution for reducing dependence on petrol.. allow free import of cars like PRIUS or better give incentives to manufacture them in the country. I think most of US Indians will buy one if the price is right!!!! low price + Mileage. Govt. should reduce custom duty on hybrids, which will reduce the price by half making them more affordable!!

[raul]

Originally Posted by fiestarry

Or so he believes.
We are all fast becoming victims of western influenced greed. Greed for money, material possessions, uninhibited fun, gizmos and a lot more unmentionables. Industrialisation has never been a TOTAL solution and can never be one.

This is way off topic but you cannot be serious! This is one of the most corrupt countries in the world, its literally destroying us from inside, and its been like this in the licence permit raj and after so how can we use terms like 'western influenced greed' in the face of our blatant greed, materialism, scams and corruption.

It seems we are not able to look at ourselves in the mirror and recognize the problem that faces us and if you cannot recognize the problem you cannot solve it. Denial, hypocrisy and an imagined and xenophobic moral posturing does not change the reality of India. Before the IT, BPO wave it only 1% of Indians had a life, now its 8-9% earning enough to drive an economic boom that has a cascading effect on a large number of people. This is basic economics, people need to be be fed, to have hope, have access to basics for a fair society.

Originally Posted by fiestarry

As part of people over 40, I can say that despite all the negatives, before liberalisation we were very happy that the air was much cleaner, water less polluted and the roads were way less crowded. Cities were congested but not as they are today. Life was tough but is it any better today. Hospitals were more humanitarian and not totally in pursuit of moolah. Schools were still places of learning and not the crass commercial complexes they are today. People had time for each other, their relatives and BP, cholestrol and sugar problems were largely what others had. Heart attacks at 40 were the luxury of only the filthy rich and movie stars. Padminis and Contessas ruled but public transport met our requirement.

Back to the topic started by GTO. Why should we have more cars? Why should the Govt help this industry crowd our cities further? Why should we all breathe more polluted air? Why should we pay astronomical real estate prices?
Because of the flawed idea in our minds that money, possessions etc are the only measure of success. If we change that and learn to be content with minimal luxury and spare more time for gentle recreation, filial relations, bonding with children, nature and environmental protection, care for domestic animals, protection of wildlife etc we would have lived a much more fulfilling life than hurtling down a six lane highway at redline speeds.
Petrolheads or dieselheads, all are heading only one way...downhill. Learn to be gentle with people, with the environment and they will all be gentle with you.

Have you bothered to look at the UN development indices for India and seen the pathetic state the vast majority of you countrymen and women live in, or it it ok for 5-10% of the population to live a semblance of a life while everyone else suffers. Access to basics like water, sanitation, healthcare, food, education thanks to continued indifference to people's real problems means we are not able to solve it 60 years down the line. Our population is going to touch 2.5 billion by 2050, are we remotely ready, it seems we are not even concerned.

The whole negativity on this thread is amazing, inspite of repeated questions on how these problems can be solved not a single person is willing to engage constructively and the 'hands up in the air' response is anti-growth negative 'let's shut everything down' because we have it. All the issues highlighted about the environment, overcrowding, resources are a symptom of our inability to govern ourselves properly. Trying to solve the symptoms without addressing the underlying cause is a recipe for failure, repeatedly.

There is zero concern for the have nots or how we are going to lift them out of poverty to have a fair and equitable society. Nobody is interested, 30 years ago we couldn't feed our people, the solution was not to close everything down but science and the green revolution, you see that constantly in human history, problems have been solved, growth has happened and folks have benefitted from industrialization, advancements in medicine, science and technology. This is called progress.

In the 19th century there was a great fear the earth is becoming overpopulated and cannot sustain more than a billion people, the current count is 7 billion. Problems are there to be solved. That's the human spirit.

[anu21v]

Originally Posted by Saanil

Off late I am seeing that everyone is really fed up of this government. I cannot think of even one good thing this government has done - of course this is also because I see only what comes on television. I do not want to blame Congress/BJP because I think we all are the part of the problem. I think the best thing would be to learn some Yoga or patience building acts so that you get the strength to endure all of this. Some times I feel helpless when I have to travel from one place to another. Driving through this traffic makes me mad. Going by rickshaw is possible only if you are lucky and you agree to the terms and conditions of the rickshaw wallah. Things become worse during monsoons. I have become short tempered and get irritated when in the morning I do not get a rickshaw to go the nearest station.

So its not Only me who is feeling this same way and whose general behavior has changed in last couple of years especially due to the general economic environment and government Apathy for tax paying citizens. Welcome to the club

[fiestarry]

Originally Posted by raul

This is one of the most corrupt countries in the world, and its been like this in the licence permit raj and after so how can we use terms like 'western influenced greed' in the face of our blatant greed, materialism, scams and corruption.

There is no limit to our corruption. That's the very point that I make. We are corrupt because we want more of everything. The rich are corrupt and the corrupt are rich. There is no denying that. Every rich man today has cut moral, legal corners in plenty in the past.

Denial, hypocrisy and an imagined and xenophobic moral posturing does not change the reality of India. Before the IT, BPO wave it only 1% of Indians had a life, now its 8-9% earning enough to drive an economic boom that has a cascading effect on a large number of people.

There is no xenophobia in saying that Industrialisation is not a true solution. How much more industrialisation can you have. Please read P Sainath to understand what mining and industrialisation is doing to tens of millions of tribals in Orissa, Chattisgarh, Jharkhand and many other states.


Is it ok for 5-10% of the population to live a semblance of a life while everyone else suffers. Access to basics like water, sanitation, healthcare, food, education thanks to continued indifference to people's real problems means we are not able to solve it 60 years down the line. Our population is going to touch 2.5 billion by 2050, are we remotely ready, it seems we are not even concerned.

Population control is the solution to those problems not more cars my friend

The whole negativity on this thread is amazing, response is anti-growth negative 'let's shut everything down' because we have it. There is zero concern for the have nots or how we are going to lift them out of poverty to have a fair and equitable society.

The reason that certain European nations like Sweden, Denmark, Switzerland appear to be the epitome of cleanliness, order, health, prosperity etc is not sheerly because of industrialisation. They have negative population growth. They have vast incomes from colonial time investments in Africa, Asia and South America. However, they too are facing labour shortages which they shortsightedly filled with North Africans etc and are facing acute social divides where the Original people are under a threat of being swamped by the immigrants.

No amount of Apollo, Fortis, Columbia Asia hospitals and the like can change the health care available to a poor man. They depend on clean air, water and food for good health and that is something which is under threat from factories which give them only effluents and shining cars in return. They can neither afford the cars nor the effect of pollution.
And that my friend is the reason for the state of the world.

Learn to live frugally, honestly, in non-AC spaces, eat in simple restaurants , have less children, donate a part of your income to the very poor that you care so much for, look after domestic animals, drive only when essential, use public transport, create carpools, dont encourage bribery or excessive tipping to get your way, smile more often...and ask people around you to do the same ...

And see the change