[niv26]

Don't you think it's the same case from C2 to C1 or B??, say i20 got what C2 has except trunk, same with Jazz vs. City.
I think it's value chain moving across segments. One day, I see Alto with airbags and ABS.

[aniket.tiwari27]

Exactly.. 3.5 months back I was in the market for my new car in 10-11L budget. I had an inclination towards the Laura TDI but then got an enlightening thought. Why spend (in my case - stretch the budget) 5Lakhs more just for a bigger body, 5 ps of power and ESP whereas I could get the similar power, same torque, similar quality coupled with ACC, Steering Mounted Controls and Music Player with USB in a Vento TDI? Finally bought the Vento TDI Highline and I am happy with he decision.

[coolboy007]

This thread couldnt have come at a better time GTO, thanks for it.

I was just talking with my father yesterday and we are contemplating buying either a new Rapid tdi or a used Laura manual going for 12 L. At the end we preffered buying a Rapid with the 4 years warranty as its having a stonker of an engine and the size is apt for our small family + the new car smell is something am gonna miss in the used Laura.

C segment sedans have really taken the fight well to their big brothers, engine equipment anything, what you get in addition to space in D seg is the higher status associated with a Laura or Altis.

[motorworks]

Brilliant thread! Wish folks at VW/Skoda/ Hyundai read this!
1) Prices of D1 sedans have gone up like no other segment! The corolla was originally at 12-13 lakhs and now retails at 16-17 lakhs! I saw a corolla diesel y/day which was not a taxi and made me wonder as to why people make such decisions! Yes its reliable etc, but 88bhp for a 16 lakh car, I mean Toyota has to seriously review the altis diesel's pricing.
2) My brother was interested in the fluence and we went to have a look at it. 14 lakhs for the base diesel version and it has nothing that the top end rapid or the top end vento does not have! The torque / bhp figures were lower infact! I'm sure the wheel base and other specs are very close as well. So why should one pay 14 lakhs? Sure, it may have slightly better materials etc, but a 2-3 lakh premium over the vento / rapid, no way!
3) One big reason for the real high prices is because most of these are brought in as CKD like the fluence, jetta etc. i'm not sure about the Laura / Civic / Corolla as they have been here for quite a while now and I'm sure localization must be high.
4) What the companies could do is to offer an entry level diesel variant with just 2 airbags /ABS and few other standard features closer to the exit price point of C2 sedans. For example, a fully loaded diesel verna automatic is about 13.5 lakhs, if an entry level d1 sedan can be priced at say 14 lakhs or so, people may look at it. May be it will not have some additional gizmos which a lot of us dont need, and I'm sure it will start to make much more sense.
5) C1 and C2 sedan prices overl lap at some point and the same sort of an approach needs to come from the manufacturers. There is a big opportunity here actually. Folks who have 12-13 lakhs to spend on a car have to either buy a cheaper c2 sedan or get some extra money for the d1, in most cases people do the former. I believe if any one can do it this way it should be VW/Skoda since they have the product line up and deep pockets to sustain such an exercise which I'm sure will only be beneficial to them in the long run!

[ashis89]

A very comprehensive analysis of the problem dogging the D1 segments sedans. A couple of my relatives were also eying the D1 segment sedans and ended up buying the Vento and City.

I think the companies should slowly withdraw their D1 segment offerings and spruce up the C segment sedans. Also they could follow what Skoda did with the Superb with the Ambition variant. It was a very welcome move.

But there is always a risk involved with the latter idea. D2 segment is perceived as a premium segment. With lowering of prices and/or introducing entry-level variants, the brand value might get diluted.

Similar thoughts cropped up while the BMW X1 was launched but BMW has still retained it brand value.

[avisidhu]

A very valid and nicely detailed post GTO. Ironically, just about 4-6 months back we were discussing about which category offers the best combination of power, features and looks, and the dominant opinion of forum members was the D1 segment. How things have changed!

Originally Posted by 2cents

But then, I wonder what a Vento or a Rapid adds over my Fabia to justify the price differential! A boot?! Now, how many of us really need or use the boot space of a C2 sedan/notch even 50%? This might seem to be off topic (and a topic of hatch vs sedan discussed over and over again), but my point is if C2 over D1 is just a sensible decision, then why do so many people go for a C2 sedan at all?!

The examples you are quoting(Vento, Rapid) are products due to which this scenario occured in the first place. Think about it this way: before Rapid, Vento, Sunny were introduced, how many sedans derived from hathbacks truly gave the D1 vehicles a run for their money? Dzire, Manza etc were simply not in the same league, and still aren't.
Besides, if you look specifically at diesel vehicles, Vento and Rapid have much better engines as well. So it's not just about an extra boot.

[SkyWalker]

As you rightly said: One of the biggest issues is cost : Most of the D1 segment Sedans are way too pricey compared to the C2 models. Rapid comes at 10 L and a Laura at 18L. Is 80% premium really worth it? Same for a Vento/Jetta. That's one reason Mahindra is laughing all the way to the bank with XUV (and probably Renault will - if they get the Duster pricing right).

Obviously the government is not helping by adding additional taxes to D segment.

[supertinu]

Interesting topic of discussion GTO and you pretty much have covered all the aspects of the current situation.

From my personal perspective I think the key factors that are making C2 sedans more desirable over D1 are

• Definitely all the gizmos and safety features that are present now across the range of cars reduce the differentiation for D1

• Increased size of D1 cars doesnt necessarily imply better comfort on the rear bench, or room for 5th passenger

• Ever increasing buying cost, till few years back a C2 sedan costing 12 lacs OTR was completely unheard off and today look at verna, vento as an example, there high end diesel models with MT touch 12 lacs OTR in places like Bangalore. Similarly this is making the D1 segment prohibitively higher in cost and beyond most upper middle class reach which I believe is the main driving factor behind increased car sales in India.

Originally Posted by 2cents

Agreed! We have excellent choices now in the C2 segment compared to D1, with the price difference not justifying what you get extra. The sales figures speak for themselves.

But then, I wonder what a Vento or a Rapid adds over my Fabia to justify the price differential! A boot?! Now, how many of us really need or use the boot space of a C2 sedan/notch even 50%? This might seem to be off topic (and a topic of hatch vs sedan discussed over and over again), but my point is if C2 over D1 is just a sensible decision, then why do so many people go for a C2 sedan at all?!

2 cents, you bring up a valid point about the value that a sedan offers over hatchback, esp in cases like polo/vento, fabia/rapid but then I think its more about aspirational value associated with a big car in India. In some cases I am certain people buy sedan for the need for a bigger boot and space but in most cases its for the big car factor .

[1100D]

Another aspect that actually works to the disadvantage of the D1 car is, the resale price-points fall bang in the category of some of the top-end C1 cars. As stated earlier, since the C1 sedan provides almost 85% of what a D1 has to offer, as well as the prospect of procuring a car with an actual "new car smell", it becomes quite a pain to get a D1 sold easily for a healthy price.

[Aragorn]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Is there an Elantra being sold currently, let alone in Fluidic design ? AFAIK, after the previous Elantra was discontinued, they have not launched a new one (yet).

You are right, there is no Elantra on sale currently. It was more a case of "if the Elantra gets launched, then I wont consider it over the Verna".

[raul]

There is a clear disconnect between price and value, both in terms of tangibles and intangibles like brand value.

The prices have been steadily pushed to the extreme limit the market can take. A Jetta is good but not 20 lakhs good.

The XUV tapped demand for 'good' SUV at the price and its success shows other manufacturers have only themselves to blame. Inflated pricing is reducing volume drivers and mid level offerings in other regions to niches here.

.

[tanwaramit]

Nice thread for thoughts GTO.

I think there are plenty of reasons why it can be called as D1 seeing downward sales

1. The price revisions of D1 cars have been atrocious I would say, a civic/corolla, available at 10L is now reaching at 16L
2. The engine etc for D1 is not upgraded as much for C2
3. Economy - with EMIs etc going up for home etc, there is a need to understand more value by the users.
4. Efficiency - Fuel Efficiency - No wonder XUV500 due to diesel engine is doing great, would it have done the same sales if it would have been petrol !
5. Poor Resale -These cars are available in the used car markets for a significant price drop
6. Costly components - Replacing parts for Civic is quite high as compared to a City (which is known to run on and on)

I would say, the consumers are asking what value the D1 car brings in comparison to the C2, the value is not that high as much as the cost difference.

[mayankjha1806]

Today its still better, about 2 years back when i was looking for a D1 segment sedan, i was saddened by lack of features in a D1 segment sedan which were available in the C2 segments and surprisingly in the hatchbacks as well. Features like ICE with all capabilities (USB, MP3, Bluetooth, etc etc) and more.

Overtime i believe their pricing equations will get disturbed, for example the OTR of Civic, Altis might get closer to high end C2 sedans and then overtime they will find some pricing equilibrium in the market that would enable both to co-exist peacefully. Features and spec wise there might be very little to differentiate between the two other than extra space.

[vb-saan]

Thanks for the excellent thread.

I feel this segment can do well, if the cars get closer to the D2 segment, in terms of equipment and power. Now the close proximity is only in pricing.

This is one segment which leaves the buyer in at most confusion IMHO. In most cases, there is a fully loaded top end version (e.g.; Jetta Highline) which is the pricing territory of D2, and then the lower-mid variants are pretty much similar to the top end C2.

So a buyer eyeing the top-end variant could very well jump a segment up, and the person who is looking for a lower variant will happily settle for a fully loaded C2.

Some examples which I can think of
1) Top end Jetta 1.4 TSI – Packed with safety, but that’s about it. The on-road price is quite close to a fully loaded Superb 1.8 TSI Elegance MT.
2) Laura Ambition TDI MT – Have absolutely no case, if compared with a top end Vento / Rapid. Even niceties like ESP is provided only in the L&K trim. The premium is definitely not justified.

That said, the lack of sales in D1 segment is not really helping the big brothers in D2. From what I have noticed, buyers who want to step up, go directly to a 3 / X1 / C / A4, and not to a Passat or Superb.

[StarrySky]

I think the manufacturers were making lot of money by selling C2-segment sedans elsewhere as D1-segment sedans here in India. It's only natural that they have got caught out now.