[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by qaqa

The Jazz sales numbers haven't really been anything to write home about. Honda also claims that at current prices, it isn't profitable either.

Methinks if the Brio sedan is introduced, the Jazz may be shunted out. As you correctly pointed out, positioning the Jazz, Brio sedan and Brio diesel will become tricky for Honda, otherwise.

Not sure if there is any room for a 2013 Jazz in the line-up either.

From what I know, Jazz has a high level of import content making its price high. I assume next gen Jazz will be lot more localized (hence better priced), will come with a diesel & may be auto transmissions as well.

Edit:
As for the Brio sedan, it might be priced slightly above Dzire because of the HONDA brand recall. Plus, assumed better power output, better space management etc, I don't find a reason why Honda will price it lesser than Dzire!

[suhaas307]

Making a few observations based on the info available.

- So the Brio sedan. Love it / hate it just like its hatchback sibling. I hate it. I mean, I don't like the way it looks at all. From the pictures released by Honda in Thailand, it may look good. But once you see it on the road, you'll realize that it's going to be highly disproportionate. The Brio was never styled to accommodate a big boot. I'd sincerely hoped that Honda would design the Brio sedan from ground up like what they'd done with the City / Jazz.

- Styling aside, I'm sure it's going to be a practical car. The longer wheel-base will ensure that leg-room at the back is better. I'm 6'2" and did not struggle to sit in the back seat. It certainly felt as spacious as the much bigger Swift. The sedan should be marginally better. The boot should be usable to.

- Which brings me to the next point. I was speaking with Vid6639 this afternoon and we tried deciphering Honda's plan. It's skewed at best. What they've done is slapped on a boot on the back with some glue and spit and are going to sell it at 9 lakhs a pop. It should have a 300 liter + boot and a reasonably spacious interior..

..so where does this leave the Jazz. Isn't the Jazz exactly that? A comfortable and practical city-car with a spacious boot? Why bother engineering and re-engineering a good product when they already have one that delivers and provides similarly? I'm just not able to get it.

Is Honda slapping on a boot for the sake of it? Are there people who walk into showrooms and say, "Yes, I'll buy that car only because it has a visible boot!"? Is owning a sedan (even if it means a miniature one) that much of a prestige thing that Honda had to go down this route?

[akhil_rpmlover]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

Making a few observations based on the info available.
-I'd sincerely hoped that Honda would design the Brio sedan from ground up like what they'd done with the City / Jazz.

Is Honda slapping on a boot for the sake of it? Are there people who walk into showrooms and say, "Yes, I'll buy that car only because it has a visible boot!"? Is owning a sedan (even if it means a miniature one) that much of a prestige thing that Honda had to go down this route?

Well said bro. .I would have loved to see an all new sedan rather than the cut-paste job. What can we do? India is still a sedan favoring country. I still dont understand why people prefer Dzire(which has same interior space as that of Swift) over other hatches. I personally know many people here from Kerala, who buys a Dzire but never uses the boot much.

Still people love calling their cars "bigger cars" over the hatches. Me being from Kerala(a sedan favoring place as well), and having bought a Jazz recently faced this matter very well. Many have said "Its still a small car.Why didnt you opted for a sedan?" But, have to say minds of many people have changed over the past. Gone were the days when their were no premium hatches.

Being a hatch lover, i just hope the premium hatch market will explode over the years.

[romeomidhun]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

Are there people who walk into showrooms and say, "Yes, I'll buy that car only because it has a visible boot!"? Is owning a sedan (even if it means a miniature one) that much of a prestige thing that Honda had to go down this route?

Yes, I must say. The mindset of customers is very important. The problem with Jazz is that it is an unconventional and average-looking hatch that is too costly. i20, though costly, succeeded because it was good looking and conventional. Swift succeeded because though unconventional, it is good sporty looking, and is cheap compared to the above two, and with a Maruti tag. Same is the case with DZire - cheap, good sporty looking (at least the new one) and with a sedan tag!

To offset the drawbacks of Jazz, Honda indeed needs a 'booted', conventional and good-looking car with a cheaper price tag. That exactly is Brio sedan, IMO.

[mayankk]

A lot of people I know are glad for these stick-on notches.
Diesels are way beyond budgets, and CNG is the way to save a few bucks.
If somewhere between the hatch and the diesel, they get a bigger boot which allows a gas cylinder to be installed, and still has space enough for the weekend jaunts out of town, its a godsend nowadays. For a lot of people, these are primary, nay, only cars!

[sgiitk]

@romeomidhun; one other issue is the market perception (totally false) that Honda service is costly - maybe at one time it was, today it is cheaper than Hyundai!

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

Yes, I must say. The mindset of customers is very important. The problem with Jazz is that it is an unconventional and average-looking hatch that is too costly. i20, though costly, succeeded because it was good looking and conventional.

What killed the Jazz was the way it was initially priced. NOT because it seemed unconventional. I think it had decent appeal. I don't think it's average looking. In fact, it's one of the better looking hatchbacks out there. The biggest drawback with it was the price when it was first launched. And the lack of a diesel engine was the final nail.

The i20 shot to success because it was a 'first' in many ways. Hyundai offered it with bucket-loads of features and equipment. Interior and exterior quality was good too and something unexpected from a Hyundai hatch at the time. Let's not forget that Hyundai did not 'Indianise' the product.

Success of a product has little to do with looks.

If looks were a priority, the Punto should have been a runaway success. And the Dzire would have been a flop.

Remember that looks are subjective as well.

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

To offset the drawbacks of Jazz, Honda indeed needs a 'booted', conventional and good-looking car with a cheaper price tag. That exactly is Brio sedan, IMO.

The Brio sedan is not going to be cheap. In fact, I think it will be a little more expensive than the Jazz, especially if there's talk that it will be priced marginally more than its chief competitor, the Dzire.

[satyaanveshi]

Originally Posted by qaqa

The Jazz sales numbers haven't really been anything to write home about. Honda also claims that at current prices, it isn't profitable either.

I would like to know where you came across such a claim by Honda. This is a common claim made by dealers, and sometimes by the media, but when/where did Honda make such a claim? In any case, the profitability of a particular model in a particular geography is not a straight forward calculation. There are several levels of fixed costs involved and internal transfer pricing as well.

It is possible that one unit of a Brio or a City generates more gross margins than one unit of a Jazz at current pricing. But this would warrant a phase-out of Jazz only if the production infrastructure was operating at full capacity utilization. Otherwise, every unit of Jazz sold would still add to Honda's coffers without a corresponding opportunity loss. I am of the view that IF the Brio diesel sedan is very successful and Honda runs short on production capacity, it may phase-out the Jazz. Even then, it is more likely that the Jazz would be replaced by an Ertiga like 5+2 seater with a diesel heart.

[sarthakgupta]

First Spyshots of Brio Sedan in Thailand:

However, we have considerable information on the Honda Brio sedan already available. Codenamed the Honda 2TP, the sedan is expected to hit the stands in March 2013. Honda calls the Brio sedan as the “sedan of your dreams”

Images:

Teaser Video:http://www.youtube.com/embed/CkwLfMxW8fk

Link:http://indianautosblog.com/2012/10/h...io-sedan-spied

[ajay9252]

The teaser pics of the upcoming Brio sedan is here - http://www.honda.co.th/
For sure, it will be a 1.2 vtec engine for Thai market.
I, for one, like the design cues. But then, I always liked Honda styling - need to see how it will look with the typical Indian roads as a backdrop

[amitayu]

If Maruti can pull it off with the Dezire (especially the new one) no reason why Honda can't.
Entry level Sedans have to qualify as VFM to sell in India, the rear end look be damned!
The Brio already has a reputation for being e fun to drive car, and the front seats really have nothing much to complain about. It is the rear seat ride that draws maximum criticisms for the Brio.
A sedan would mean doing away with the sub 4 meter restrictions. This would allow Honda to improve space. I am no expert, but somehow feel that a boot would perhaps give the Brio better balance when it comes to drive characteristics, given the hatchback version really has a unsettling ride in the back.
Given Honda's reputation of packaging things well, this might just click. Although, a diesel mill is essential in today's context.

[romeomidhun]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

What killed the Jazz was the way it was initially priced. NOT because it seemed unconventional. I think it had decent appeal. I don't think it's average looking. In fact, it's one of the better looking hatchbacks out there. The biggest drawback with it was the price when it was first launched. And the lack of a diesel engine was the final nail.

If looks were a priority, the Punto should have been a runaway success. And the Dzire would have been a flop.

Remember that looks are subjective as well.

I was not saying Jazz failed purely based on looks. I was saying that a combination of facts like unconventional design, average looks (for me), and high price made Jazz a flop. I know one of my friend, who opted for i20 over Jazz because his wife thought that, for her, Jazz's front and rear designs were "pathetic".

But I completely agree with you on the part that "looks are subjective". Punto, for me, is a lizard and old DZire is a frog, while new DZire is a looker for me.

It is the package that sells, not any single particular feature. For me, old DZire succeeded - even when the looks factor worked against it - because of a combination of facts like Maruti brand, Diesel option, big boot and Swift tag. For me, Jazz hadn't too many factors in favour of it.

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

I was not saying Jazz failed purely based on looks. I was saying that a combination of facts like unconventional design, average looks (for me), and high price made Jazz a flop. I know one of my friend, who opted for i20 over Jazz because his wife thought that, for her, Jazz's front and rear designs were "pathetic".

But I completely agree with you on the part that "looks are subjective". Punto, for me, is a lizard and old DZire is a frog, while new DZire is a looker for me.

It is the package that sells, not any single particular feature. For me, old DZire succeeded - even when the looks factor worked against it - because of a combination of facts like Maruti brand, Diesel option, big boot and Swift tag. For me, Jazz hadn't too many factors in favour of it.

Even though I don't agree with you on many things, I concur with the phrase in BOLD.

I wouldn't have, a few years back. But today, if a car has to be successful, it can't work solely on what the Jazz has to offer.

- It does not have a diesel engine : is one huge disadvantage

and then you've got other little disadvantages such as the lack of transmission options and an average ride-quality. The Brio sedan should help sort out some of these issues. But I'm not sure if the ride quality will improve. Hondas are choppy over rough surfaces. I should know, I have two of 'em at home! And the Brio isn't exactly pliant either. Highway manners aren't their fortes either, when you consider the competition.

That apart, I think the Jazz is still a great package for someone who wants a good city runabout with lots of space and isn't interested in a diesel car.

[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

....That apart, I think the Jazz is still a great package for someone who wants a good city runabout with lots of space and isn't interested in a diesel car.

That is exactly why it doesn't sell! I mean, how many buyers can we find with above set of requirement.

Most of the city runners travel alone most of the time. All they may need is decent driving position/setup and space for themselves. Additional space in the rear and boot is of very little use.

However one of my colleague had exactly the same requirement and I advised him to go for Jazz. But when he finally was convinced to buy one, they increased the prices and forced him to re-think on his decision.

[sgiitk]

@suhaas; Yes Honda suspension tend to be stiff, so you get better handling at the cost of a stiffer ride. It is true of my Civic (vis a vis Accent) and I found the same in a TD of a Brio (expect mine tomorrow). Unless you go hydropneumatique this is cross you have to bear.