[rameshnanda]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

In the 1980's, 1990's and 2000's, we mostly managed with inherently dangerous vehicles like the old Fiat car, Amby, open Mahindra Jeeps, Maruti 800, Maruti Omni (By God that must be the most dicey vehicle in the world).

Traffic, speeds, crowds etc were much different then and the vehicles were inherently limited by their lower power etc.

Today, it is a really nice thing to see that safety is taking quite a high priority amongst the better informed communities.

True. But, there are still inherently dangerous vehicles from some manufacturers which are still running on our roads. It doesn't limit to just those old days .

[shankar.balan]

Originally Posted by rameshnanda

True. But, there are still inherently dangerous vehicles from some manufacturers which are still running on our roads. It doesn't limit to just those old days .

Yes I agree. However, since many more people are taking safety seriously, I would like to think that the revolution has begun.
It is only a matter of time till the appropriate legislation and amendments to the Motor Vehicles act comes through to make safety features mandatory.

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

I can't understand if it is only due to the duty structures that a cheap foreign car costs so much more here in India. What else could be the reason for this?

Two ways to look at the duty structures.

One: To protect local players like Premier, Tata, Mahindra and Hindustan Motors. So that videshi players do not dump their cars here like how it happens in Pakistan.

Two: Instead of videshi players bringing in parts and merely assembling it in India, or bringing in fully built up units and selling them, higher tax structures on fully built up and imported parts ensure that these players setup factories here, research and develop in India and overall employ more Indian workforce to make cars and increase our country's technical knowhow.

PS: If your Yeti, for example was a locally manufactured unit instead of a completely built up unit (CBU) it would have been priced 8-10 lacs on road. May be lesser because CBU carries 100% import duty.

[shankar.balan]

Hey the Yeti is a CKD.

Plus, please consider this - the same Yeti Spec that I have, the Elegance, is called the Experience in England. It costs about 23000 to 25000 Pounds (drive away) with all the same equipment in it.

This equates to Rs 20.4 Lacs which is more or less the same price in India.
This is one of the big reasons that influenced me to buy it!

Now, by contrast, consider a LandRover Freelander.
One can own one for similar money to the Yeti in England - say 27000 Pounds give or take for a TDI V8. Look at the fact that the BASIC model here in India costs 44 Lacs!

Consider the Santa Fe which I can buy in Australia for the equivalent of 18 lacs - I am forced to pay 29 lacs in India for the same thing.

Next consider the Captiva which also costs in the region of 18-20 lacs abroad and in India, its price is close to 26-27 lacs on road!

I think the above named three are on CBU mode here and hence the prices are really high.

Would they also, like the Yeti, become as affordable as they are abroad, if they were to make them into CKD's here?

Also why should there be such a huge premium being charged in India (27 odd lacs on road) for the Fortuner, which is priced in the region of 18-20 lacs anywhere else in the world?

Would deeply appreciate clarity on this.

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

PS: If your Yeti, for example was a locally manufactured unit instead of a completely built up unit (CBU) it would have been priced 8-10 lacs on road. May be lesser because CBU carries 100% import duty.

[benbsb29]

Note from TBHP Support : Please keep the discussion limited to the Renault Duster. Thanks.

[DieselDon]

Originally Posted by idofsuresh

I was already concerned with No ESP and my concern has only got stronger. Is it going to be a real issue ? Obviously, the base version of XUV (No ESP), Scorpios and Safaris are not subjected to equivalent stability tests. I can't see why these versions without ESP would pass a similar test. None of our diesel cars under 13L ex-showroom have ESP is another matter.

EDIT: My concern is more because the stability tests are at 65 KMPH. A need to swerve safely at 80 KMPH is not uncommon in India. And this statement from the web site hurts me to the core "The French manufacturer has already taken action ad starting from March 2011 ESP will be offered as standard on the dCi 110 4x4 and 4x2 version Dacia Duster." So, if they know ESP is crucial in Duster and if they are offering it in Europe as a standard feature why this kolaveri against Indians ?

+1 to the treatment to India.
On the ESP & the video. It is called the Moose Test & involves swerving out and immediately back into the lane (like avoiding an obstacle or more like a quick overtake on a typical state highway)
As far as swerving at 80 kmph (and not needing to come back into the lane) - I guess the Duster(or any other car) should be as good as the Driver..

Originally Posted by raul

The real reason Renault is not offering ESP is the Indian 110 and 84 are one generation older without DFP and probably not compatible to the ESP designed.

Can you help us understand the DFP (or lack thereof) & the older generation ?. I am assuming the same pieces are being exported to UK !

Originally Posted by condor

I will definitely suggest you cancel the booking, and look at other options. Peace of mind is very important, and definitely about the vehicle one is driving.

Originally Posted by roy_libran

Don't place all your bets on technology to save your life. My suggestion would be to understand the limits of your vehicle and drive within those limits. If you have managed without ESP so far, you'll manage going forward as well. Don't cancel your booking for a silly reason. P.S. ESP is definitely good to have but not a must have IMO.

@idofsuresh - Highly subjective. Peace of Mind(@condor) is as equal as Practicality(@roy_libran). Both have the same priority.
I would suggest to take a extensive test drive and satisfy yourself before going forward.
Someone who wants a 'driver's' car might not like the Duster for lack of Power,ESP, etc. However not all are in the same boat.

I need a comfortable ride (my rural drive involves hills and pits), good space (am bulky), boot (travel luggage), good enough power (to use the expressways) & replace my aging ride. Duster seems to make sense to me. Have to yet Test Drive though !

[Oreen]

About Duster 85, here's some specs from the net:

2010 DACIA DUSTER dCi 85 4x2 AMBIANCE specs, photo & performance data (since middle 2010 for Europe )

It can do 150 kmph + on the road and reaches 100 kmph in 13 seconds or so. With 200 nm of torque available, and given the weight of the vehicle is only around 1180 kg, that should be good enough performance from an entry-level SUV.

I like the looks and most importantly the GC. Plus the ride promises to be better than a boaty Scorpio, which was my planned upgrade from a Bolero GLX.

Safety? Well, I have traversed all over South, West, and East India in a Bolero with nothing other than seat belts and front disc brakes as safety features. It is, like someone mentioned, more about the way you drive instead of how many acronyms your car has. For the 85 bhp RXL (priced at slightly over 10 lakhs in Bangalore), you have enough car for that kinda money, imo.

Oreen

[floyd.bell]

Originally Posted by Oreen

It can do 150 kmph + on the road and reaches 100 kmph in 13 seconds or so. With 200 nm of torque available, and given the weight of the vehicle is only around 1180 kg, that should be good enough performance from an entry-level SUV.

Might be a problem if the vehicle is fully loaded. The 85PS engine will feel underpowered due to lack of pulling power. 110PS would be a better bet here on the highways. But again, if its just 2 poeple travelling, 85PS should quite suffice.

[raul]

Hey DieselDon, sorry about getting it wrong in my earlier post! I am not an expert but there are multiple versions of the 1.5 dCi engine and only the new 90bhp eco 2 and the 110 have the ESC/ASR option, usually as a 300 euro extra.

See here - DACIA DUSTER neuve : achat dacia duster par mandataire and on dacia.co.uk

DPF is the diesel particulate filter that all diesel vehicles in EU are required to carry I think from 2010. Cars like the Yeti have it in India, I am sure other do too.

ESP was not being offered on the Duster for some time and then some engines, I guess the newer 110 got it, and the 90 bhp Eco version so its now there in most regions like Russia, Germany, France, Turkey and the UK when launched. I am guessing we are getting an older version of the dci 1.5 engine without DPF and hence the absence of ESC/ASR.

[ajit_72]

Originally Posted by raul

The ESP thing is a huge sore, especially given its being manufactured in Chennai for UK versions and is a mere 350 pounds extra. I seriously doubt folks spending 10 lakhs plus on a car will hesitate to spend 350 pounds to get ESP and better safety. And the video evidence and commentary on how essential it is for all to see.

The RXL 110 without airbags is equally bad, and no option for it when the 85 gets it is completely muddleheaded on Renault's part. Folks will pay extra for it, I think this is what is putting a lot of informed consumers off. The pricing is probably off by just 50k according to the majority of feedback on prices on this thread. I don't see anyone expecting the Duster for a low price. To say that Indians are expecting too much for less when westerners are getting what we are getting at much less with more features does a disservice to informed consumers.

Ultimately manufactures make a huge show of cost cutting and deliver inferior products at inflated prices, and since not everyone can be informed they get away with it. The real reason Renault is not offering ESP is the Indian 110 and 84 are one generation older without DFP and probably not compatible to the ESP designed.

I think Reanult would ride over this initial euphoria of Indian buyers who are queuing up for a new and decent SUV at this price. It competes pretty well with Safari and Socrpio in price and features. XUV and Yeti are a segment higher so can't be compared.

Maybe next year when the sale dries up, they will launch another version with all the safety features that they are offering in the European cars.

[Oreen]

Originally Posted by floyd.bell

Might be a problem if the vehicle is fully loaded. The 85PS engine will feel underpowered due to lack of pulling power. 110PS would be a better bet here on the highways. But again, if its just 2 poeple travelling, 85PS should quite suffice.

Yeah, absolutely right about performance on the highways. I was just thinking aloud, because if it is just about comparing the lugging power, the Bolero XD3P produces 152 nm of torque (15.5 kgm x 9.80665), which easily pulls the kerb weight of the vehicle (1600 kgs) plus five adults and luggage (+ 400 kgs = 2000 kg) in all kinds of terrain with elan. Here, just compare the torque:

Bolero XD3P = 152 nm versus Duster 85 = 200 nm
Bolero weight = 1600 kg versus Duster 85 = 1120 kg

So, for my needs, on paper, it is a winner. In the Bolero I do about 800 kms a day, in the 85 I can do about 1000 kms a day.

The 110 is marginally better, but is the pricing justified? It has a torque of 230 nm...reaches 164 kmph, and does 100 in about 11 seconds. And it would still do about 1000 kms a day given driver fatigue ... so, end of the day I still pay about 1.5 lakhs more for something that can be done without. Strictly speaking for myself here .

[lohithrao]

Oreen, you are on "dot" if you are used to a Bolero then this vehicle will be miles ahead of this in all aspects, maybe handling bad terrain is the only area it may not be as good as Bolero.

probably you can spend the saved money for traveling purpose

Originally Posted by Oreen

Yeah, absolutely right about performance on the highways. I was just thinking aloud, because if it is just about comparing the lugging power, the Bolero XD3P produces 152 nm of torque (15.5 kgm x 9.80665), which easily pulls the kerb weight of the vehicle (1600 kgs) plus five adults and luggage (+ 400 kgs = 2000 kg) in all kinds of terrain with elan. Here, just compare the torque:

Bolero XD3P = 152 nm versus Duster 85 = 200 nm
Bolero weight = 1600 kg versus Duster 85 = 1120 kg

So, for my needs, on paper, it is a winner. In the Bolero I do about 800 kms a day, in the 85 I can do about 1000 kms a day.

The 110 is marginally better, but is the pricing justified? It has a torque of 230 nm...reaches 164 kmph, and does 100 in about 11 seconds. And it would still do about 1000 kms a day given driver fatigue ... so, end of the day I still pay about 1.5 lakhs more for something that can be done without. Strictly speaking for myself here .

[Oreen]

money, money, Lohit bhai...
if i didn't have to think about money, it would be a Ducati Monster 795 and a Pajero Sport...not an Enfield and a Bolero.

The Duster is suddenly this beautiful Tucson-like SUV within my buying range. So thinking hard, also trying to justify the 110 over the 85, weighing the pros and cons. Can't really concentrate on work much. Now weigh it against the natural upgrade, which is Scorpio SLE. Scorpio is ten years old, never looked as good as the Safari, handles like a boat, but has a rock-solid engine and decent service backup all over the country. Even the parts basket is pretty reasonable. Has ABS, lots of space, and as Shankar Balan says, a Duster can't compete with it in many respects, definitely not space.

But there's also the matter of the heart. Of aesthetics. Of falling in love with Steffi (all the expensive SUVs), and actually having a Steffi lookalike (Duster) as your neighbor, within touching distance. Can't be ignored, right? I can discount the fact that my Steffi lookalike isn't so good at tennis as long as she brings home the oomph.

btw, Lohith, You were buying my Bolero, right? What happened to that?

-- Oreen

[BUXX]

all of this talk about going miles & miles with Duster.. .makes me think of the less than 50 service stations that Renault has in entire India.
What if something breaks..?? The entire competition has a zillion service centres spread across the country.
So will this just remain an Urban SUV. For my tough route to work?

[Cesc]

85HP should not necessarily feel underpowered for a a vehicle with a gross weight < 1200kgs. The 1.9 TDI Octy has 90HP and has a weight of 1350kgs. I have driven it in all sorts of conditions and have never felt a lack of power. The Octy does have more torque though (guess it is 230 or 240Nm). The way the power and torque is utilised over the rpm range makes a huge difference.

Putting down 1L+ for 25 extra horses may not necessarily be a wise decision for people driving in average conditions. Unless the driveability of the 85HP is real bad, IMO that 1L+ is beter invested in the option pack (ABS+Airbags+alloys+rear parking sensors).