[jasmeetsingh]

The cars landed here too a couple of days ago.

[vikrantj]

My initial impressions as a non-enthusiast and a average Indian customer (imagine I have loads of money in my pocket) of it :

1. Exterior looks nothing out of ordinary.
2. Interiors looks very ordinary.
3. Diesel engine plonked in 184BHp/4000RPM and 380Nm/1750-2750RPM compared that with Cruze 166BHP/3800RPM and 380Nm/2000RPM . This comes at price tag of 28L+ and Cruze at 13L+ .

I do not understand what is which a run-of-the-mill car doesn't give that this gives. All and all a car which feeds ego of one who can afford while providing no value-for-money. It does not stand apart from the pack.

Again this is my personal opinion.

[Akshay1234]

Originally Posted by vikrantj

My initial impressions as a non-enthusiast and a average Indian customer (imagine I have loads of money in my pocket) of it :

1. Exterior looks nothing out of ordinary.
2. Interiors looks very ordinary.
3. Diesel engine plonked in 184BHp/4000RPM and 380Nm/1750-2750RPM compared that with Cruze 166BHP/3800RPM and 380Nm/2000RPM . This comes at price tag of 28L+ and Cruze at 13L+ .

I do not understand what is which a run-of-the-mill car doesn't give that this gives. All and all a car which feeds ego of one who can afford while providing no value-for-money. It does not stand apart from the pack.

Again this is my personal opinion.

LOL if you were expecting value for money you shouldn't have looked at anything above a Superb. None of the cars, whether it is the A4, 3, or the C give anything remotely close to value for money. They are bought for other things like driving pleasure, and yes many a times just to show they can be afforded.

Leaving the looks aside, which are personal choice, let me tell and explain what this gives you which the Cruze does not.

1) The engine is more powerful, by a small amount yes, but its still almost 2 seconds quicker to the ton. The 8 speed gearbox is far superior to the one of the Cruze, hell even the old E90s 6 speed is better.
2) Better build quality - This is a huge part of the good feeling that you get when you sit in, or drive this car. The way the doors shut, the way the buttons press, no rattles over bumps. The solid feeling from everywhere. The sound insulation.
3) More sorted ride and handling - The F30 rides well, unlike the E90 which was stiffly sprung. The Cruze's ride is nothing extraordinary. And the handling and stability? Lets not compare. Also RWD.
4) It has more space than the Cruze, in the front and rear. Even though it may not seem so to you.
5) Features? The 3 has a lot more features than the Cruze, maybe you should go through the spec sheet and see what I'm talking about. iDrive, better sound system, so many safety features.
6) A BMW is a BMW, nuff said.

Now is it worth the 20l over the Cruze? Thats personal opinion. But anyone who can afford the 3 will really not look 2 segments below. Frankly these comparisons make no sense because these cars are aimed at a different audience.

[vikrantj]

Originally Posted by akshay1234

LOL if you were expecting value for money you shouldn't have looked at anything above a Superb. None of the cars, whether it is the A4, 3, or the C give anything remotely close to value for money. They are bought for other things like driving pleasure, and yes many a times just to show they can be afforded.

I am sorry but do you mean people looking out to buy BMW's / Audi etc should never consider the value for money proposition.
Well then I rest my case here since I am not the one who looks out for cars that only Gods can drive. Then I think BMWs and Audi are doing too much in India. Ideally they should be giving us a barebones car with seats and a engine but a hugh logo announcing their make and price ridiculously and then declare to the world that they are targetted to a particular audience.

Value for money like exteriors/interiors look-and-feel is a personal thought process. It can vary with person to person.

[Akshay1234]

Originally Posted by vikrantj

I am sorry but do you mean people looking out to buy BMW's / Audi etc should never consider the value for money proposition.
Well then I rest my case here since I am not the one who looks out for cars that only Gods can drive. Then I think BMWs and Audi are doing too much in India. Ideally they should be giving us a barebones car with seats and a engine but a hugh logo announcing their make and price ridiculously and then declare to the world that they are targetted to a particular audience.

Value for money like exteriors/interiors look-and-feel is a personal thought process. It can vary with person to person.

Well I didn't say that (whats written in bold). But frankly you are right. Because none of these cars are VFM. Like I said earlier nothing above a Skoda Superb is VFM, unless you look at pre owned.

Its not the manufacturers fault, but the government which has set such high duties.

Its certainly arguable that these cars shouldn't be priced at what they are, but if you didn't see whats special in a Bimmer, a Merc or an Audi, I think you should spend a little more time in one.

Well I'm not coming up with my own stuff here, its from seeing peoples decisions on tbhp and my own friends that I am saying people considering these cars do not look segments lower, since most of them have already owned a car from a segment lower, and are looking to upgrade (it is a huge upgrade even if the engine is only 18bhp more than the Cruze).

Cars like the Cruze, Laura, Jetta are as good as the 3, C, A4 when it comes to basic car usage. Infact some may even offer more space. Same goes for the Accord, Superb, Sonata compared to the 5, E, A6 when it comes to the basic usage of the car. But its the small details, features and build which make the more expensive ones special. Everyone here will agree that they are overpriced, but there is nothing that can be done about it. So no point in cribbing that they are not VFM.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by vikrantj

I am sorry but do you mean people looking out to buy BMW's / Audi etc should never consider the value for money proposition.
...
Value for money like exteriors/interiors look-and-feel is a personal thought process. It can vary with person to person.

I am sorry, but really did not understand your point here. Firstly, all cars may not satisfy the VFM cravings. And secondly, taking the car in question here (the new 3), for someone who is evaluating a car in this segment, the 320d may look like super VFM – for what it offers.

Nothing wrong in comparing a Cruze with a 3. But brand positioning is something which happens with every consumer product. For e.g.; if someone goes out to buy a pair of Ferragamo shoes, s/he may check out alternate products like Gucci, but very unlikely to go and check Bata, even though the product is just a pair of shoes, and serves the same purpose. It’s not because Bata products are not good. It’s just the preference of that specific buyer, and it is always good to have options.

[quattroa4]

Originally Posted by akshay1234

Well I didn't say that (whats written in bold). But frankly you are right. Because none of these cars are VFM. Like I said earlier nothing above a Skoda Superb is VFM, unless you look at pre owned.

Look , before even starting this topic of BMW or whatever else say cruze or Audi , everybody has to understand one point and one point only that this is a pure driving machine , the BMW 3 series has been nominated best driver's car of the year in Car And Driver magazine for last 18 years and thats saying something .
And as a proud owner of the 3 series(E 90), i laugh everytime it hits the curve or simply the way it handles is astonishing . I did own a OCTAVIA RS , a Luara TSI before buying this one . Formidable machines those are but still its the handling of the three that puts the rest of questions to rest . Its the best car money can buy for the sheer driving pleasure. Even the new five (f10) doesn't come close to it. And if thats it is for you of paramount importance then what VFM and what price things do go meaningless.

[karan561]

I think the only car which is a non VFM when it comes to driving involvement & can be compared to the segment below is the A4 2.0 Tdi.

The 2.0 TDi is a Front Wheel Drive & has the slouch of a 140 bhp engine & a lazy gearbox, Audi did not even bother to give it the power bump what it got internationally ( now seen in the latest passat 2.0 Tdi )

This is the only car which deserves to be compared with a Cruze or the best to be compared with is with the Laura or the Jetta ( same speccd engine/s )

[Tats07]

Nice review by Car and Driver on 328i. We need an official T-BHP review of both 328i and 320D, and a comparison from the masters, please! :-)

2012 BMW 328i / 3-series Sedan First Drive – Review – Car and Driver

[srishiva]

Followed one for 5 kms on Varthur Road. Looks really good, low slung throughout and the rear is a bit stretched horizontally which makes it look like a smaller 5 series.

[Turbo car]

Originally Posted by vikrantj

I am sorry but do you mean people looking out to buy BMW's / Audi etc should never consider the value for money proposition.
Value for money like exteriors/interiors look-and-feel is a personal thought process. It can vary with person to person.

Vikrantj,

See every indian car buyer feels that and will atleast admit in private that all the merc, bmw, audi, even volvo is overpriced by atleast 7-8 lakhs and even our old Pajero is overpriced by atleast 8-10 lakhs in that segment. Value for money is not a proposition that works well in this segment as the consumer is buying an esteem product and hence has a different view of Value for money than say a maruthi buyer.

If you look at the second hand car prices of all these priced brands, we can find that the pricing is more on realistic terms and more closer to the OTR prices we would really like . You can check the classified page here itself and find proof regarding what i have said now.

New cars purchase in this segment is more driven by the "heart" than the "head" and marketers know that. That really deliver an aspirational value for the customer and that is what they bank on when they price them higher than your logical pricing point. No buyer of a swanky 3 series is going to really stand near the car and ask "Kithna dethi hai" ?

[mayjay]

Originally Posted by Turbo car

Vikrantj,

See every indian car buyer feels that and will atleast admit in private that all the merc, bmw, audi, even volvo is overpriced by atleast 7-8 lakhs and even our old Pajero is overpriced by atleast 8-10 lakhs in that segment. Value for money is not a proposition that works well in this segment as the consumer is buying an esteem product and hence has a different view of Value for money than say a maruthi buyer.

If you look at the second hand car prices of all these priced brands, we can find that the pricing is more on realistic terms and more closer to the OTR prices we would really like . You can check the classified page here itself and find proof regarding what i have said now.

New cars purchase in this segment is more driven by the "heart" than the "head" and marketers know that. That really deliver an aspirational value for the customer and that is what they bank on when they price them higher than your logical pricing point. No buyer of a swanky 3 series is going to really stand near the car and ask "Kithna dethi hai" ?

Well I wouldn't completely agree to that since most of the sales for such cars are for diesel variants. This holds true across the 3/5/7 segments. If fuel efficiency/ fuel price were not a concern, the petrol variants which deliver better outright performance would sell more.

Like you say though, we all have a feeling that we are being had. Prices are much higher than in developed countries. It may be down to high duties, low volumes, price skimming or a combination of all these.

Fact is that when someone goes looking to buy a car for say >15 lakh rupees, they will get much inferior performance, safety/features and brand value in India than in the developed countries per dollar. This is what Vikrantj seems to be pointing at.

[Turbo car]

Originally Posted by mayjay

Well I wouldn't completely agree to that since most of the sales for such cars are for diesel variants. This holds true across the 3/5/7 segments. If fuel efficiency/ fuel price were not a concern, the petrol variants which deliver better outright performance would sell more.

Mayjay,

The resale value and the daily operating cost are the reason for the consumer choice of diesel premium cars over petrol; especially for our entry level BMW, Merc, Audi etc.

However, if you consider high end cars like Ferrari, Lamborghini etc , the consumers are just going for the experience alone and hence do not care about the daily operational cost. Second hand buyers of the same cars are only looking for the user experience and hence they too does not bother about the daily operational cost.

Value perception varies from individual to individual and hence there will be difference in the consumers outlook of even the same car.

"One man's food is another man's poison." or even "one according to his ability and one according to his need" can best explain the different diverse views regarding this.

[karan561]

Originally Posted by Turbo car

WOW..let me be the first to congratulate you karan !

You got to promise us that you will post all the pictures of the car right from the time of delivery from the showroom to the interiors.

BTW, why didn't you choose 320D sport line ?

The car has arrived ,



you can see more pictures & read the initial report of the same here ;

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...coral-red.html

Thanks

[Turbo car]

karan561,

Many thanks dear karan. May you have many joyfull years with her !!!

I will read your thread and post my comments there.

Really, she looks so great.