[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by elantracrdi05

1. I couldn't really afford a BMW - It was an emotional decision and I really stretched to get one since I love cars. Please do not brand me as a 'killer'. I haven't really gotten into trouble with the car.

Now that you have upgraded to a BMW from something else, do you feel all invincible? Do you now drive at 120 kmph in residential areas, dodging all those pesky kids on the road?

But seriously, now that you have a BMW, have you changed your driving style within the city limits? Driving slow on potholed bad roads doesn't count!

[amitku]

Originally Posted by smartcat

Had this been year 1990 or 2000, what you say holds water - because most of the German premium car customers were either large business owners, arms dealers or politicians. And they don't care much about laws and etiquette when driving. But now in 2012, the customer profile of a German car is whole lot different - you can see people in mainstream professions owning a German car.

But the media is still stuck in 1990, and news reports with headlines like these greatly influences the general public opinion.

Time for BMW/Merc/Audi to do some PR exercises?

@smartcat: You are correct that the profile of the buyer has changed. From wealthy business men who were mostly chuffer driven in such cars, to school kids who have the car gifted on the birthdays, do not have a driving licence, pack friends in the car to show off speed, and usually drink and drive. Most of all they would always be driving talking on cell phones.
A lot of the recently reported incidents happened in Gurgaon and South Delhi, where if you are on the road and see a BMW/Audi (less of Merc) in your rear view mirror, you simply move aside to give them way, else face the consequences.
In Gurgaon you can see these and other cars speeding away in broad daylight, jumping signals, cutting through traffic. And who is behind the wheel, a young kid.

Although I agree that the News reporting could be different and not name the brand, but the fact remains that an increasing number of accidents involve the big 3 germans.

[elantracrdi05]

Originally Posted by smartcat

Now that you have upgraded to a BMW from something else, do you feel all invincible? Do you now drive at 120 kmph in residential areas, dodging all those pesky kids on the road?

But seriously, now that you have a BMW, have you changed your driving style within the city limits? Driving slow on potholed bad roads doesn't count!

If you ask me, I feel more vulnerable. The other day an idiot endeavor driver reversed into me at a traffic light to try and squeeze into another lane and almost got me down to tears. The car spent 10 days in the workshop to undo the damage caused. Since my upgrade, all I can say I'm guilty of is gunning it at a light if I am the first one there and that too up to a safe speed before I let go. To answer your question, the potholes and the risk of idiots keep me in check on all city roads. The highways...well those are for me

[chinkara]

Originally Posted by Daewood

Sir, do you have any data for this "disproportionate number" ?

BMW sold around 15,000 cars in india last year. How many fatal accidents did they cause in the same year. Probably 5?. Ratio= 0.00033
Scorpio Sold around 50,000 units in the same period.
To be a lesser evil than BMWs they should have caused only 15 or less fatal accidents. Do you think they caused only such small numbers.
Now do the same math for every vehicle like Tavera, Indica, etc
The maximum number of deaths in India are caused by heavy vehicles, ( now don't tell me they are the Volvos and Merc buses that are killing). Second comes commercial vehicles like cabs and small trucks.

There is a fundamental flaw in your analysis. You should not look at sales, but on vehicles on road. As far as I remember, there were reports of BMW selling its 25,000 th car in India a few months back. Now there would be what, 30-35,000 cars on road max?

AFAIK, there are more than 4 Lakh Scorpios on road. So even if we assume the number of fatal accidents involving BMWs was 5, the equivalent number in Scorpios should be ~60 or more.

Which is about correct, I think. But of course, we do not have statistics.

[vivekgk]

The general rule seems to be that if you're in a car worth 20L+, and you're speeding, then you must have enough political clout to get away with it. In India, the bigger vehicle is always at fault, no matter how stupidly the smaller vehicle was driven. And if you actually stop and try to help an accident victim, flash mobs form out of thin air, and act as if you'd attempted to murder the victim.

However, isn't it alarming that in a a large majority of these cases, the drivers are generally rich kids who are drunk and speeding from one party to the next or racing? Let's face it, if you're a guy who's paying a hefty EMI on a Beemer, Merc or Audi, you're not likely to take risks with it, because you simply can't afford to fix it! And if you drive when you're drunk, you deserve no pity at all, no matter what car you're driving. If your kid without a license stole your car and hit someone, it's your own fault for not remembering that you'd done the same thing with your dad's scooter.

[diffsoft]

I hazard that there's a mix of truth and sensationalism in this.

1. It is safe to assume that higher powered cars are likely to go at higher speeds, and these luxury cars are higher powered than the rest.

2. These cars are heavier than other cars. Law of conservation of momentum requires that lighter cars suffer heavier impact and hence more damage when colliding with heavier car, this is compounded when the heavier car is at a higher speed than the lighter car.

3. There is a bit of sensationalism because there is an expectation like Spiderman says, "With great power comes great responsibility". So instinctively we assume that people driving luxury cars have a greater responsibility towards the ordinary mortals (me included). When that is not reciprocated there is anger, envy and loathing. The media sees an opportunity to drive it harder and get some TRPs.

4. Moral hazard - when the driver of the luxury car enjoys only the upside of a luxury car - whatever that may be - but no downside like purchase costs, repair and maintenance, reputation damage and so on; restraining forces on enjoying the upside are likely to be lower

Cheers,

[Tech]

Accept the reality, Indian roads are not same as international cities roads. There is no space to drive, roads are narrower specially in cities and small towns, with more than half of the road occupied by standing vehicles, people and shops here and there, men, women and children, even animals crossing the roads every now and then, no lane driving norms.

In such a situation it is very easy to cause accidents and why only super cars are involved in accidents? Every day there is a new sad news but no action is taken to rectify the cause.

Super cars such as BMW / Audi / Mercedes / Porsche / Jaguar etc have ultra-powerful engines. A mere push at the accelerator may cause accidents and deaths. It is proof that the driver is incapable to manage the acceleration of the car. Every time it is only these cars which are in news for killing innocent people. A person must have a driving experience of more than say 7 years / 60,000 + km to be able to get a driving license for such cars. Additionally, no adolescent should be allowed to drive such cars. The cars should have safety sensors to halt on approaching dangerous proximity with a stationary / moving object, taking into consideration the speed of the vehicle.


In terms of engine design, all such cars sold in India should be having a lower powered engines and maxed out speed limits, torque and acceleration suitable for Indian roads and this should be mandatory. I know there are many restrictions around this but this is the need of the hour.

This page talks more on these lines -

http://www.roadsafetynz.org/engine-p...trictions.html

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by Tech

In such a situation it is very easy to cause accidents and why only super cars are involved in accidents? Every day there is a new sad news but no action is taken to rectify the cause.

Super cars such as BMW / Audi / Mercedes / Porsche / Jaguar etc have ultra-powerful engines. Every time it is only these cars which are in news for killing innocent people.

Media bias, tabloid-ism and sensationalism

Related topic:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ir-owners.html

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by Tech

In such a situation it is very easy to cause accidents and why only super cars are involved in accidents? Every day there is a new sad news but no action is taken to rectify the cause.

I think youre confusing reported accidents with number of accidents

Originally Posted by Tech

Super cars such as BMW / Audi / Mercedes / Porsche / Jaguar etc have ultra-powerful engines. A mere push at the accelerator may cause accidents and deaths.

Is true of practically every moving metal object which can impact a human being at more than 10-20 kmph

Originally Posted by Tech

It is proof that the driver is incapable to manage the acceleration of the car. Every time it is only these cars which are in news for killing innocent people.

"In the news". Thats the one.

Originally Posted by Tech

A person must have a driving experience of more than say 7 years / 60,000 + km to be able to get a driving license for such cars.

I know people who are on both ends of the scale and who are both kinds of drivers. Rash older ones, rash younger ones, sane older and sane younger ones. Hardly a qualification when your learning arena is Indian traffic and roads.

Originally Posted by Tech

Additionally, no adolescent should be allowed to drive such cars.

100%.
No adolescents should be allowed to drive anything that needs something more than pedal power.

Originally Posted by Tech

The cars should have safety sensors to halt on approaching dangerous proximity with a stationary / moving object, taking into consideration the speed of the vehicle.

In terms of engine design, all such cars sold in India should be having a lower powered engines and maxed out speed limits, torque and acceleration suitable for Indian roads and this should be mandatory. I know there are many restrictions around this but this is the need of the hour.

They do, most of them do they not? I dont know. I drive humbler cars.
I think as a first step, there should be an autocratic level of enforcement of existing laws. As it is in nations like the UK, or US, where, surprisingly, Indians become the best of drivers, even human beings. Guess why?

[cityvic]

Originally Posted by smartcat

Media bias, tabloid-ism and sensationalism

Related topic:
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ir-owners.html

+1

A really lame and biased article. Typical mindset of finding fault or hating the guy with the bigger car even though the actual scene is the complete opposite. The media does and writes anything to gain readers and publicity. There are several hundreds of accidents happening daily in our country but the media only covers the ones with the luxury brand names and not the ones that involve cheaper cars so that the readers can talk oh XX channel tells me this guy hit his Mercedes but no-one would talk about the XX channel giving news that this guy hit his Honda.

Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Maseratis, Aston Martins, Rolls Royces, Bentleys, Porshces, Audis, BMWs, Benzs, and Jags sure do have the power but they also have much more advanced safety and technology to keep the passengers and people around the car safer in case of an accident.

Accident happens when the other driver/pedestrian is being careless as well hence it is always better and safer to walk out of an accident scratchless from a Mercedes rather than heading to the hospital straight from the scene to get your injuries treated after an accident involving a Honda.

Instead of banning young adults from driving such cars, it would be better if drivers of all ages were encouraged more to take part in the driver training programs the above car makers organize in our country so that one can improve their skill to handle such cars, know their limitations on public roads so that accidents can be avoided and lastly also know what to do incase an accident occurs.

[hemanth.anand]

Originally Posted by Tech

Accept the reality, Indian roads are not same as international cities roads. There is no space to drive, roads are narrower specially in cities and small towns, with more than half of the road occupied by standing vehicles, people and shops here and there, men, women and children, even animals crossing the roads every now and then, no lane driving norms.

Agreed and accepted.

In such a situation it is very easy to cause accidents and why only super cars are involved in accidents? Every day there is a new sad news but no action is taken to rectify the cause.

Why is a new sad news everyday involving supercars? It becomes a news when a super car is involved.

Super cars such as BMW / Audi / Mercedes / Porsche / Jaguar etc have ultra-powerful engines. A mere push at the accelerator may cause accidents and deaths. It is proof that the driver is incapable to manage the acceleration of the car. Every time it is only these cars which are in news for killing innocent people. A person must have a driving experience of more than say 7 years / 60,000 + km to be able to get a driving license for such cars. Additionally, no adolescent should be allowed to drive such cars. The cars should have safety sensors to halt on approaching dangerous proximity with a stationary / moving object, taking into consideration the speed of the vehicle.

good point. Maybe a cubic capacity band, age and licencing can be linked. But implementation is a herculean task in our country. Proximity sensors and emergency brake assist systems are all either already present or will be coming very soon in these cars, but then the most dangerous part in a car is the nut behind the steering wheel

In terms of engine design, all such cars sold in India should be having a lower powered engines and maxed out speed limits, torque and acceleration suitable for Indian roads and this should be mandatory. I know there are many restrictions around this but this is the need of the hour.

why don't we think opposite?...Indian roads should be made suitable to handle high speeds, faster cars. Yes i know there are far too many restrictions but this is the way forward don't you think?

This page talks more on these lines -

http://www.roadsafetynz.org/engine-p...trictions.html

This article talks about high speed crashes in NZ. Good read but then "high speed in NZ" and "High speed in India" are far apart. I feel we must first make our roads capable of handling higher speeds than the current possible speeds. That will get the "high speed in NZ" to "High speed in India" close to each other. After that we should move to think of problems related to high accidents

Clarification: I'm not supporting driving at illegal speeds nor do I own a supercar.

[dark.knight]

Look, its simple, one side will firmly believe that aside from BMWs and Audis, one can even drive Ferraris, Lamborginis and Bugatti Veyrons on Indian roads like normal, they aren't entirely wrong, one can "technically" drive them, and I suppose India has a few of them running around in major cities.

The other side will believe that only hatchbacks and small sedans with naturally aspirated engines are suitable for India, they aren't wrong either, look at the petit, microscopic barely-there flat surfaces with smidges of bitumen here and there which we call as roads in our nation.

I cannot toe either line without offending either party and having them jump down my throat with reasonings such as "if in other countries, why not here" or "why here where there is so much poverty and underdevelopment". Truth is in one word - responsibility. The rich, whether be it in China, Russia, Africa or India, will want the best of the best, perhaps that's their vice (read hobby/motivation), however it'll be utterly foolish to assume that Indian roads will be as drivable as North American or German roads.

There comes responsibility, though never explicitly mentioned or thought of, a driver does need to understand that he/she is on the road for the sake of travel for leisure or otherwise, and likewise he/she would need to respect the safety of all that lies between the start of the journey until its end. Accidents happen in every location on earth, hence the automatic assumption that worldwide, there is a need for motorists to adopt safer driving practices, man's continual pushing of limits can never be satisfied, if 300 kmph is the limit he'd want to try 320 kmph, likewise in India with its limits and breaking of the same.

I've seen tiny 800cc and 1200cc cars pushed to very, very unsafe levels by people and that angers and saddens me at the same time. I take responsibility very seriously and I try not to forget the day I held a car key for the first time ever, it felt like the biggest burden to bear at that time, the burden of caring for others safety as well as my own, over 12 years I'm glad I've not forgotten that.

There's no stopping the neo-India, with all its contrasting sights and contradicting view-points, its not something I'm comfortable with but it is what it is. However when it comes to the core topic of the thread, I guess I can summarise it in 2 sentences >

1)Buying supercars - Its a "free" country, so each one's choice for themselves.
2)Safety of buying supercars - Depends on responsibility, sense and sensitivity towards our symbiotic earth, no different from buying a beat-up old motorbike. However, are our roads as easy to drive and systematic as European or American roads, HECK NO.

[racer_ash]

Media wants to portray an owner of a supercar (or for that matter even luxury cars) as the villain who is brash, arrogant and has no sense of responsibility. Sons of such people are tagged as a rich kid who asks 'Jaante ho mera baap kaun hai? (Do you know who my dad is?). While this may be true to certain extent, it has been highly generalised in our Indian Context. Simple reason? Media want people to connect to their version of the story thereby increasing readership; same way a mass hero who is a common man fights big-wigs in the country and wins the heart of the people.

The fact is this. An insane bloke in a normal car does more damage to himself and others than a sane bloke in a supercar. Also, in real life conditions, I would want to be in a better engineered car that in a tin can, knowing fully well that I will have more control in the former and more evasive manoeuvres are possible too (thanks to electronic aids like ABS, TCS etc.). As dark.knight mentions above, its all about feeling a sense of responsibility. There may be instances of me driving like a maniac in my early 20s but I am now more responsible in the way I drive. Just because I shift from my humble i20 to a Merc overnight will not make me go back to my maniacal ways.

If this thread wasn't merged, I would have wanted to rename it 'Tin-Cans on Indian roads and safety concerns'

[Tech]

This sensor was being mentioned by me which should be there in such cars particularly and also suitably in all cars.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nationa...le17451372.ece

Now, a sensor to avoid bus accidents

B. Madhu Gopal
VISAKHAPATNAM March 12, 2017 08:27 IST
Updated: March 12, 2017 08:27 IST
Source : thehindu.com

It activates the brake on sensing an obstacle and sounds siren to alert the driver

Bus accidents, which are leading to loss of several lives, can be drastically reduced by the use of a sensor.

The device senses the obstacle ahead and automatically activates the brake to reduce the speed of the vehicle. This apart, it activates a siren to alert the driver when he dozes off behind the wheel.

The A.P. State Road Transport Corporation (APSRTC) has already installed ‘speed governors’ to restrict the speed of its fleet, but private bus operators are yet to fix them in their ultra modern imported luxury buses that are designed to run at high speed.

VRL Travels, a Bengaluru-based private bus operator, has been successfully using sensors on most of its fleet for the past five years. These sensors can detect obstacles 40 metres ahead to automatically slow down and stop, and thereby avoid the prospect of a collision.

A sensor, installed on the front portion of the Vizag-Bengaluru luxury bus, five years ago, was inspected by Deputy Transport Commissioner S. Venkateswara Rao on National Highway 16 near NSTL here.

Its driver, Venkateswarlu, said: “The sensor activates the brakes, when it finds any obstacle and slows down giving jerks so that the driver can activate the danger signal to warn other vehicles coming behind of the impending danger.”

“A small device is also attached to the steering wheel and the driver has to constantly feel it. If he doesn’t, the sensor suspects that he is dozing off and the vehicle doesn’t pick up speed even the accelerator is pressed.”

“We set the timer for the sensor mostly during nights from 11 p.m. to 5 a.m., when we [drivers] generally feel sleepy. I have come across drunken lorry drivers on quite a few occasions abruptly coming from the wrong side, and the sensor saved me and the passengers,” Mr. Venkateswarlu said.

“Our travel company is the only one in India using sensors on its fleet of buses for the past five years. The sensor, ‘sixth sense’, costing between ₹30,000 and ₹1 lakh, was procured from Mumbai,” said VRL’s Visakhapatnam branch manager Shekar.

It’s learnt that other bus operators are not going for it as the diesel consumption goes up by 5-8 litres for every 100 km.

[Tech]

See this is happening too. Lower powered Super cars for Indian Roads. What I had thought was already being thought by these majors also. That's the correct way to go. People get to satisfy their urge to drive Super cars and which are adequately powered for Indian roads too. This coupled with the Accident sensors mentioned in above post would go a very long way.

And the prices are "sweeter too".

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/57844546.cms

Now buy Porsches, Mercs at prices 50% lower than their full-feature variants
By Ketan Thakkar, ET Bureau | Mar 27, 2017, 07.22 AM IST

MUMBAI: It perhaps has never been so affordable to own a performance car in India. Iconic German sports car makers Porsche and Mercedes-Benz AMG added new, entry-level models to their portfolios, at prices as low as half those commanded by their full-feature performance cars. Tata Motors is building one of its own. Purists may have a problem with some of the stripped-down versions making their way into India — they don't tick all the boxes on performance expected from the road vehicles made for speed — but company executives say these cars suit better for Indian road and driving conditions.

In the past six months, Porsche drove in the Macan R4, 718 Boxster and 718 Cayman with 2-litre engine options. These vehicles are 20-23% cheaper than those fitted with the traditional 3-litre engines, because the lower displacement means a cut in import tax to 120% from the 170% levied on the versions with the larger engines.

Mercedes-Benz launched the S43AMG, SLC 43AMG and GLE43 AMG in the past 12 months, priced at almost half the 63AMG series.

These vehicles are now available with a 3-litre petrol engine, compared with only diesel before.

The enticing prices, the company says, have helped it attract buyers for performance cars in small cities and towns as well. Industry experts see entry-level models as a practical solution to meet the growing demand for high-performance cars in a country that is rapidly adding to its list of millionaires but where infrastructure development has failed to keep pace. With roads posing a challenge, very seldom a sports car buyer in India is able to drive the car to its fullest capacity, they say.

"A customer of C63 AMG is not able to get the real juice of the car in terms of performance due to challenges on road infrastructure, whereas the C43 AMG is much more practical and delivers a good mix of performance and practicality," said Roland Folger, the India head at Mercedes-Benz. "The 43 AMG will be a big driver of growth of our performance cars in India."

What drove the automakers to come up with stripped-down versions of their performance cars was the curbs India imposed on vehicles powered by large diesel engines. A Supreme Court-imposed ban on diesel vehicles displacing more than 2 litres in the National Capital Region was lifted after six months last year, but that led the companies to be prepared for any such eventuality.

Luxury-car makers like Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Audi introduced sub-2-litre engine and petrol options and today these models have become a key part of their portfolio.Introduction of the 2-litre engine was a long-term counter strategy and the 2-litre, 4-cylinder strategy works brilliantly, said Pavan Shetty, head of the Porsche brand in India.

"You still have a product, comes very close to the competition and still can keep the business afloat in the best of times." Porsche's cars with 2-litre engines are getting strong traction in the market, he said. Already, the share of the 718 Cayman and Boxter in the company's India portfolio has increased to 15% from 5% and the Macan R4 is likely to see a five fold jump in sales to about 50 cars in 2017.

"The 2-litre cars should bring in incremental business of about 20% in 2017. Thanks to the overlying positive sentiment, we are looking at positive growth for first time in three years," said Shetty.

At Mercedes-Benz, the 43 AMG models have been the biggest contributor globally, too, to the more than 1 lakh cars it sold under the AMG portfolio in 2016. Both Mercedes-Benz and Porsche have lined up a number of vehicles for launch in India this year. Merc's plan comprises a dozen products, while Porsche is set to bring in the GT3 shortly.

Porsche, which plans also to add the Panamera diesel next year, has expanded its geographical reach with two new dealers in Chennai and Hyderabad. The company is exploring the possibility of starting smaller boutique outlets or small set-ups with a significant digital interface with the customers to reach out to towns and small cities.