[Turbopetrol]

Originally Posted by catchjyoti

Wonder why it suddenly moved from ethanol to methanol? While sugarcane would have been the base for ethanol, it would be coal for methanol.

Would there be any difference in engine behavior on using such blended fuels? 15% sounds like a considerable quantity.

[arunphilip]

Hmm, reading the Wikipedia article on Methanol fuel throws up a variety of differences when compared to pure petrol/gasoline engines:

• Harder cold weather starts (not sure if its as hard as today's diesel, worse or better)
• Acidic byproducts of combustion can increase erosion of valve seats, cylinders, etc.
• Corrosion of fuel lines due to contaminants in methanol
• Better power output but higher fuel consumption (so to what extent the cost savings of a methanol blend will be realized is a bit of an unknown)
• Methanol is hygroscopic, and it absorbs moisture from the atmosphere (similar to common types of brake fluid)
• Methanol is toxic, causing blindness to death, worse still it doesn't need to be ingested, skin contact will itself result absorption of some methanol
• Improved emissions
• The US and Brazil played around with methanol-fuel and methanol-petrol mixes, but nothing really took off
• Europe allows a 3% methanol blend in petrol

Some of these factors (corrosion in fuel lines, increased erosion in the combustion chamber) all indicate that such blends might not directly work with existing petrol vehicles as they might not be designed to work with such a mix.

For example, my EcoSport's manual states that it can use up to a 10% ethanol blend in petrol, but makes no mention of methanol.

So, there needs to be suitable studies and testing performed before this policy is enacted.

[Turbopetrol]

Would the difference in exhaust pattern affect the way turbo works? After all turbo works by utilizing exhaust gases.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Turbopetrol

Would the difference in exhaust pattern affect the way turbo works? After all turbo works by utilizing exhaust gases.

With everything else remaining the same there are really two factors that determine the energy the turbo gets from the exhaust gases. The sheer volume of gas per time unit and the temperature of the gas.

The volume of gas is a function of the RPM, cilinder volume, pressure, temperature etc. The temperature is likely to be a little higher as typically engines running on an ethanol blended fuel tend to run a little leaner.

So there might be some theoretical plusses and minuses, but I don’t think in practice it will result in any problems for the turbo. There are a few generic issues with ethanol blended fue. Of course, on the upside, it reduces certain emissions.

But on the down side:
Some fuel system components will be affected by it. Typically cars older then 15-20 years might get problems. Typical problems are gaskets and hoses dissolving, some fuel tanks are known to be affected.

In general it reduces the fuel efficiency of the engine as a blended fuel provides less energy per unit. But I have not come across any other negative effects yet. And of course ethanol blending has been around the USA and parts of Europe for more then a decade. It’s spreading and the amount/percentage of ethanol is increasing now as well.

Jeroen

[Turbopetrol]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

. And of course ethanol blending has been around the USA and parts of Europe for more then a decade. It’s spreading and the amount/percentage of ethanol is increasing now as well

Thanks for that. Actually now the talk is about blending methanol, and not ethanol. I had started another thread with my original query; but it was merged with this thread. But I suppose even methanol has all the shortcomings that you mentioned about ethanol.

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by Turbopetrol

As per government vision to bring down pollution and petrol cost, they are soon going to unveil the policy on blending 15% methanol in petrol.

Would this blending be a concern for current petrol engines with respect to performance/maintenance?


Sources:
----------

http://www.thehindu.com/news/nationa...le21382251.ece

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/61997600.cms

Yes it is sound logic since India is coal rich.
So the process will be coal ==> syn gas ==> methanol

From that I recall there are quite a few coal gasifiers in India - though no idea whether they are working today (due to coal allocation scam).

Of course the syn gas can also be used to produce the hydrocarbon liquids (GTL plants) which is direct replacement of petrol and diesel



I think the methanol idea genesis was this:
http://petrotech.in/uploadfiles/Spea...20AayogPPT.pdf

[Thermodynamics]

Originally Posted by Turbopetrol

Would this blending be a concern for current petrol engines with respect to performance/maintenance?

Indeed, Methanol is very corrosive. They mix this in China, not a great idea but they don't care as they have huge coal reserves and great access to Methanol.

Ethanol is an octane booster but has a lower calorific value and hygroscopic (water in fuel not a good idea).

Coincidentally I attended a training today that discussed the history of ethanol as fuel additive. While my memory is fresh let me pen that down.

It's an interesting piece of history. Once upon a time we were using Tetra-Ethyl-Lead(TEL) to improve octane number of petrol. As the awareness of lead poisoning began to haunt the oil companies, they invented Methyl Tertiary Butyl Ether (MTBE) as an alternative to TEL. It was a beautiful invention as all these years people were literally breathing lead. California banned TEL, the other states also followed. Today the whole world has moved out of TEL except one.... North Korea.

Once again by the turn of century, California finds MTBE contamination in ground water. Investigation revealed leakage from Petrol pump tanks. MTBE being an ester, the smell can be detected by humans even at ppb levels. They made a Hungama and banned MTBE. Someone proposed Ethanol as an octane booster. Farmers lobby were just waiting for this, the whole US banned MTBE and made ethanol mandatory to be mixed in Petrol. The original issue is actually leakage and not MTBE. But politics changed everything. The buyers don't realise they are losing calorific value and have to fill more often.

Another country that uses significant amount of ethanol as fuel is Brazil. This is a special case as they have to find a solution to deal with surplus sugar. All other countries in the world use MTBE.

[Turbopetrol]

Originally Posted by Thermodynamics

Indeed, Methanol is very corrosive

In that case, a 15% blending of methanol with petrol can possibly bring down the life of a vehicle. I am very interested to see whether vehicle manufacturers will still honor warranty if a known corrosive agent is blended in the fuel.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by Turbopetrol

Thanks for that. Actually now the talk is about blending methanol, and not ethanol. I had started another thread with my original query; but it was merged with this thread. But I suppose even methanol has all the shortcomings that you mentioned about ethanol.

Thanks, I had not realised that. Not sure why they have been merged, they are two different things alltogether in practical terms!
Jeroen

[Turbopetrol]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Not sure why they have been merged, they are two different things alltogether in practical terms!
Jeroen

Yes, I agree. I found an interesting article on this topic here:

http://www.ogj.com/articles/print/vo...-blending.html

[SJM1214]

Received this Circular at Whats app, don't know much about its authenticity.

[suku_patel_22]

Read this interview of Nitin Gadkari on "Car and Bike". He speaks about flex fuel engines (petrol/ethanol).

https://auto.ndtv.com/news/flex-engi...adkari-1805475

[ecenandu]

Originally Posted by SJM1214

Received this Circular at Whats app, don't know much about its authenticity.

Attachment 1721803

One cannot just put ethanol blended fuel in any vehicle, it has to be compatable. The main problem of ethanol blended fuel is, it is more corrosive to rubber sealants, hoses, gaskets, etc. So in long run, on a vehicle which has components designed for normal petrol can have issues. Our Honda City, 2008, is E10 ready, which means I can put petrol which contains maximum of 10% ethanol.

[Turbopetrol]

Originally Posted by SJM1214

Received this Circular at Whats app, don't know much about its authenticity.

Attachment 1721803

So would that mean we are paying petrol's price for 10% ethanol as well now? Or are ethanol and petrol similarly priced?

[rdst_1]

Originally Posted by Turbopetrol

So would that mean we are paying petrol's price for 10% ethanol as well now? Or are ethanol and petrol similarly priced?

I had recently purchased 99% pure Ethanol from a manufacturer and price was Rs. 70/ltr plus additional charges for the plastic can. Total cost came to 82/ltr.