[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by GTO

We managed to get our hands on the diesel : petrol split for some models. Other manufacturers aren't willing to share (they'll come around eventually).

Fiesta New - 105 : 19

Nissan Sunny - 1343 : 320
Renault Scala - 798 : 9

Skoda Rapid - 851 : 248

Some C2 segment observations on the diesel - petrol split:

• Fiesta petrol: 19 units sold – segment first dual clutch AT, added safety features like ESP, nobody is interested.
• Sunny & Scala: 320 untis v/s 9 units! Petrol buyers prefer Japanese looks to French
• Skoda Rapid: Healthy percentage of petrol units sold. I assume this should be the case with the Vento as well.

[motorworks]

Super quick reports as usual!

Some questions that come to my mind:-

1) Who bought those 77 petrol ambassadors? West bengal government? May be they seized them since HM didnt pay some local taxes.
2) Linea is becoming a very exclusive car now. Sales in 2 figures? Punto at 207 units in a segment where the no 1 car is doing 10k units. No new launches, some rumours of Jeep / Chrysler CBUs which make no business sense considering Fiat's situation in india. Fiat, please walk away. Quick and sudden death. No slow and painful exit please. You can make money in india only one way-Selling engines to Maruti.
3) Duster--The only thing apart from the DCI diesel engine that Renault got right in India.

[AutoIndian]

Originally Posted by Driving_Nomad

Although the numbers look really funny, it has to be noted that the Car that has been and is sweeping sales is still a petrol one!

The only reason for that is there is no diesel option in it. If ever Alto is launched with a diesel variant (with a 40-50K premium over its petrol counterpart), you would see the same skew as other petrol/diesel models

The cheapest diesel car available in the market today is the Beat (or perhaps the Indica with the old NA engine). However it has a premium of at least 2 lakhs (or more) over the Alto. Hence people who have a shoe string budget would never even think of going in that territory.

[Omtoatom]

Originally Posted by AutoIndian

The only reason for that is there is no diesel option in it. If ever Alto is launched with a diesel variant (with a 40-50K premium over its petrol counterpart), you would see the same skew as other petrol/diesel models

The cheapest diesel car available in the market today is the Beat (or perhaps the Indica with the old NA engine). However it has a premium of at least 2 lakhs (or more) over the Alto. Hence people who have a shoe string budget would never even think of going in that territory.

Agree.

Another way of looking at it is that Maruti is completely aware of this need scenario and yet, has chosen to stay away from making the Alto available in a diesel avatar. Although there is news that they are working on developing a 2-pot 800 cc diesel engine, even that could take a couple of years at least even by conservative estimates. On the other hand using one of the current mills would, I'm sure, wreak havoc with the Alto's pricing, even upset Maruti's apple cart and could potentially shoo some of their customers away toward other options/carmakers.

That segment of buyers is extremely price sensitive, like you said, on a shoe-string budget. So they would be extremely averse to forking out close to a lac or so to get the diesel. No wonder MSIL doesn't seem to be too worried or even in any hurry there.

[Driving_Nomad]

Originally Posted by AutoIndian

If ever Alto is launched with a diesel variant

I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon! Maruti have to first set up a plant for manufacturing diesel engines and invest in a lot of Research and Development (rumors going around that they are doing).

Originally Posted by AutoIndian

Hence people who have a shoe string budget would never even think of going in that territory.

Originally Posted by Omtoatom

Agree.
On the other hand using one of the current mills would, I'm sure, wreak havoc with the Alto's pricing, even upset Maruti's apple cart and could potentially shoo some of their customers away toward other options/carmakers.
No wonder MSIL doesn't seem to be too worried or even in any hurry there.

Quite interesting this thought is! Using Fiat's 1.3 Multijet on an Alto (with acceptable NVH of course) would make it an enthusiast's car, won't it?

[romeomidhun]

Thanks GTO, for the much awaited monthly data.

Now I can see the losers due to the rise of compact MPVs. While Ertiga, Duster, XUV are all selling well, the main losers are SX4, Verna, Innova and City - all of them are more or less steadily losing their numbers. Even worse will happen to them if the compact SUVs like Ford EcoSport and Maruti XA-Alpha are introduced soon.

But I can't see the huge bookings for Alto 800 converted into deliveries, and not able to see much Alto 800s on road Chennai. Any production issue for Maruti?

[centaur]

One of the i20s and one of XUVs came to our place

Looks like Fiat is pumping all the profits its earning by selling engines into the keeping the dealerships afloat. Really sad to see such good products go waste

[deep_bang]

Very interesting and thanks a ton to all those who helped get these wonderful reports.

I am absolutely surprised about Ertiga holding it's ground. I mean it is a 10L car and still it sells almost the same as indica and vista combined. Not the best comparison but it just indicates how good the Ertiga package is.

Quanto selling a decent 2k units seems good as the xylo also continues to sell as it used to before. So effectively Mahindra has doubled their Xylo sales with a tweak to the existing Xylo. Wonder why it does not sell more in the UV space even with such an attractive price.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by yogeshnagpal

Whats wrong with the City after the initial Spike in October ?

The factory clearly stuffed dealer channels in October. The dealers now have excess inventory.

Originally Posted by rangarx

Hyundais never cease to amaze me. Not so good looking IMHO. Again, taste differs a lot.

Personally, I like Hyundai's new designs, from the Eon to the Elantra.

Originally Posted by Driving_Nomad

Although the numbers look really funny, it has to be noted that the Car that has been and is sweeping sales is still a petrol one!

Main reason being, there still isn't an entry level diesel car. Tata has a huge opportunity with the Nano diesel, before the competition catches up.

Originally Posted by hemanth.anand

I feel that this split will be closely watched and hence I have a suggestion here.

Will surely do as & when we get the said data from all manufacturers.

The sudden rise in the sales figures for Kizashi shows what a mess Maruti made of the one oppurtunity they had to crack the higher end segment. This car, built in India with a price tag that could compete with a Civic would have been well received by the market.

Sorry, but what Sonata Jinx? A big sedan is bought by 3 kinds of people IMO- the chaffeur driven, people with minimal running but wanting a prestige car and the enthusiasts. Without a diesel option, and with a backseat that is strictly optimised for two people- it doesn't make sense to the first category, the hyundai badge doesn't appeal to the second list of people. The lacklustre performance for such a high-spec engine along with poor dynamics wont make it appealing to the third lot.

Actually, the Sonata's failure has nothing to do with the rear seat being optimised for 2. Comfort is on par with an E-Class and better than the Superb. 80% of the cars on our road have either only the driver or driver + 1 passenger. Premium customers don't care about dynamics either.

The reasons for the Sonata's failure are the badge, lack of diesel and that they didn't underprice the competition (as they did with the Elantra). Just like Maruti isn't bothered with the Kizashi, Hyundai's launching the Sonata was just to have presence in the segment. Maruti & Hyundai are both focused on the volume segments below where they are especially strong.

I guess anyone would agree that Manza has been enjoying the reputation of being the most niggle-free car from the TATA stable.

Nope, the most niggle-free car from Tata is the Sumo. I was actually pleasantly surprised with the stellar levels of reliability reported by owners.

It remains to be seen if it can retain the same build/ quality as now as the production has been shifted from FIATs Ranjangoan plant to TATAs own plant (I guess Pimpri?).

True. But with more modern competition arriving at the entry-level price points, offering far better brand value, reliability, quality & service experience, Tata is losing its USPs. The perceived lack of quality (not that Fiat's Ranjangaon plant is a benchmark in build quality) from a production move back home should be the least of their worries.

i would also say that 1500 in the second month of launch can predict a lot about the future of this model!

True. But it's easy for Chevy to stuff dealer channels at this point which they clearly aren't doing. Remember, this is also a new engine for them. Once the production stabilises, we'll have a clearer picture.

Product teams have done their job well? Please! The car easily feels the most dated choice in the market now, that too in the second month of its launch.

No doubt the Sail looks far too staid & outdated. But there's no car that is perfect, is it? Except for the design, it's one heck of an all-rounder offering great space, a lovely engine, smooth gearbox, neutral road manners and light controls (making city driving easy).

More than the looks, its Chevrolet's marketing department that can make or break the Sail.

Pressure cooker situation at VW? They dont even seem to care much about the market!

If they didn't, VW wouldn't hire a star manager (Arvind Saxena) from Hyundai.

VW from Germany might have decided to slow down investments in India. But that certainly doesn't mean that the VW India team doesn't "care about the market" and is drinking coffee all day. The pressure is indeed on for losing the marketshare points they had just a year back.

I hope they can somehow survive till 2014 when they plan the full assault of models with their new dealership arrangement in place.

The engine supplies (and profits from the same) will ensure Fiat's survival in India.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Not entirely! If you want more proof - the same engine in a lighter Laura should do wonders for its sales - but the reality is far from it.

Comparing the Superb petrol to the Laura petrol is going nowhere. It's simply not apples to apples. For one, the Laura petrol isn't even available with an AT. Second, the Laura TSI always received stepmotherly treatment and didn't even have a feature-laden top variant for much of its life.

Then, as you mentioned, the price difference to the diesel is unusually high!

Originally Posted by sunilg33

Ford have an excellent opportunity to jump into top 5 with the Ecosport. If its priced well its definitely capable of 5k+ bookings. If they repeat fiesta they will remain at the bottom for another year at-least.

After what they've suffered with the new Fiesta, Ford will definitely price the EcoSport well.

[Hayek]

Originally Posted by GTO

There is a surprise indeed. Look at the Skoda Superb! Even with premium cars, the diesels have substantially outsold their petrol counterparts. With the Superb however, the petrol is quite competent and considerably cheaper to the diesel.

Quite interesting. I half expected this, as everyone I know with a Superb has the infamous 7 DSG 1.8 Tsi, and in Bombay, atleast, 80% of the Superbs you see are petrol.

The magic manager at VW clearly needs to get his pre sales act together and fast. VW has the most unresponsive and poorly trained dealers on the street. Getting a simple and accurate pro forma invoice from the three Bombay dealers was a chore. I persisted since I liked the Vento Petrol AT, and finally booked one over 2 months ago. After more than two months, I got sick of the complete lack of visibility on delivery times and cancelled my booking. To my surprise, I did not even get a simple feedback call on the reasons for the cancellation. VW makes great cars, but they need to ensure that their dealers stop thinking that they are doing a customer a favour by selling to them. Further, this is clearly a company problem - since one of the Bombay dealers has a Honda dealership next door, and those guys are completely on the ball.

As an aside, I think VW takes turns at making the Vento and the Rapid, looking at how they keep criss crossing in the sales list.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by Omtoatom

Perhaps it all came out a little hazy in my post

Thanks mate ! The previous post did sound to me like you were suggesting that the engine is solely responsible for the disparity in sales, and hence my response.

Originally Posted by GTO

Main reason being, there still isn't an entry level diesel car. Tata has a huge opportunity with the Nano diesel, before the competition catches up. .

Huge oppurtunity and huge risks too, if I may add - this could be the last chance to revive sales for Nano. Success will depend of the amount of refinement they are able to acheive with such a small diesel motor. I had a friend who was working on this project 2 years back comment that Mr.TATA himself rejected the initial prototypes because the refinement and mileage did not meet his expectations.

Originally Posted by GTO

Actually, the Sonata's failure has nothing to do with the rear seat being optimised for 2. Comfort is on par with an E-Class and better than the Superb. 80% of the cars on our road have either only the driver or driver + 1 passenger. Premium customers don't care about dynamics either.

The reasons for the Sonata's failure are the badge, lack of diesel and that they didn't underprice the competition (as they did with the Elantra). Just like Maruti isn't bothered with the Kizashi, Hyundai's launching the Sonata was just to have presence in the segment. Maruti & Hyundai are both focused on the volume segments below where they are especially strong.

Rear seat comfort on par with the E class? Thats an amazing comment for this Hyundai, and yes - I take back my uninformed statement about the seats then. From the official review - i got the impression that the rear seats were nothing much to write home about. Got to read again. By the way - I haven't tried the Sonata rear seats and my statement was only from the reviews in the forum. Guilty as charged!

But - basically - your thoughts echo my previous comment. Both Hyundai and Maruti had resigned to their fates even before the launch of these two cars - and had minimized their investments and risks accordingly. Otherwise - both were competent products which just needed the right market positioning.

Originally Posted by GTO

Nope, the most niggle-free car from Tata is the Sumo. I was actually pleasantly surprised with the stellar levels of reliability reported by owners.

True, but I was talking about the modern cars from TATA.

I regularly travel in Sumo (office) cabs and I know how good their reliability qoutient is! But then - TATA has had problems/ niggles with electronics and attention to detail and overall finesse of their products - none of which are required/ present in Sumo. So lets leave out Sumo, shall we?

Originally Posted by GTO

True. But it's easy for Chevy to stuff dealer channels at this point which they clearly aren't doing. Remember, this is also a new engine for them. Once the production stabilises, we'll have a clearer picture.

No doubt the Sail looks far too staid & outdated. But there's no car that is perfect, is it? Except for the design, it's one heck of an all-rounder offering great space, a lovely engine, smooth gearbox, neutral road manners and light controls (making city driving easy).

More than the looks, its Chevrolet's marketing department that can make or break the Sail.

I wouldn't agree to it, but we are debating too early at this point - any more argument would only be wasting server space. Will be back in Feb/March 2013 Sales thread (Unless Mayans were right!) to say - 'I told you so'.

Originally Posted by GTO

If they didn't, VW wouldn't hire a star manager (Arvind Saxena) from Hyundai.

VW from Germany might have decided to slow down investments in India. But that certainly doesn't mean that the VW India team doesn't "care about the market" and is drinking coffee all day. The pressure is indeed on for losing the marketshare points they had just a year back.

You are right, without doubt. The rumours about Polo GTD and TSi models are heartening indeed. Let me also put that a Polo GTD with 1.5/1.6 diesel engine will be the most desirable hatchback in the country IMO. But how much will it help sales?

Vento is struggling despite the recent refresh that made it more VFM. IMO - it still falls short on the VFM qoutient although it might be one of the best cars in the segment. And what would it take to equip Jetta with features on par with the competition? And the word about the dealers being arrogant and the car being expensive to maintain - is spreading fast! Today I had dinner with my team and was surprised to hear the comments when the discussion steered towards VW - almost everyone told its expensive to maintain even though none of them actually owned one! And these are non-enthusiasts who would have heard this through word of mouth channel only.

VW India is having its strategy wrong IMO- something which just does not justify the initial impact they created in the market. May be, they should have taken that coffee all day. Would have helped them from dozing off after a high profile launch of the brand.

Originally Posted by GTO

Comparing the Superb petrol to the Laura petrol is going nowhere. It's simply not apples to apples. For one, the Laura petrol isn't even available with an AT. Second, the Laura TSI always received stepmotherly treatment and didn't even have a feature-laden top variant for much of its life.

Then, as you mentioned, the price difference to the diesel is unusually high!

The comparison with petrol Laura was only in response to the comment that the 1.8 TSi engine is solely responsible for the success of the petrol variant. But the OP has cleared the meaning of the post later on.

[gharika]

Originally Posted by GTO

After what they've suffered with the new Fiesta, Ford will definitely price the EcoSport well.

From what I have read, Ford has priced EcoSport above Duster in Brazil. Will you consider that as a well priced car if they do the same in India? The other point is the length of EcoSport - some say its sub 4 meter, others report it at 4.1+, that will affect the pricing too. And, is a 4x4 on the offer (or in near future)? If priced right, EcoSport can compensate for Fiesta fall.

[anand_hc]

Tata Nano which was launched with so much hype & hoopla, is selling so low numbers. Isn't it time they stopped it ? Is it even viable option for them in long term?

[AutoIndian]

Originally Posted by gharika

From what I have read, Ford has priced EcoSport above Duster in Brazil. Will you consider that as a well priced car if they do the same in India? The other point is the length of EcoSport - some say its sub 4 meter, others report it at 4.1+, that will affect the pricing too. And, is a 4x4 on the offer (or in near future)? If priced right, EcoSport can compensate for Fiesta fall.

It is an altogether different ball game in India. Ecosport's 1.0L Ecoboost engine & under 4m length would make it fall in the lower excise bracket. Moreover Ford is taking time to increase the extent of localization (probably to 80% or even more), hence the delay in launch. All these just to make sure that they price it right at the word GO & don't repeat the new Fiesta pricing mess. For further discussions on this you can refer the Ecosport thread --> http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post2973890

Let's spare this thread to discuss the Nov'12 sales figures

[puchoo]

As engrossing a read as ever , i was surprised at the figures for the Sail UVA jumping up so much , its an excellent sign for GM if it holds out , but like so many have said its simply too early to really be sure of how the model is going to do. ON the flip side of-course , whatever they appear to be making incrementally on the SAIL , they seem to be losing it on the Beat.