[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by CliffHanger

The same advantages you listed down for Amaze almost holds good for i20 as well. When you bought the Punto, you had the i20 as an option as well, but why did you chose the Punto?

It's nice to thrive to be objective, but not at the cost of self's integrity. It makes the discussion meaningless.

First things first - it would be good to collect facts before going rude.

All the things held good for Swift too, and I had booked Swift. I had asked them to change it to DZire if possible too, before going ahead and completely cancelling the booking. I could have been as happy with Swift/ Dzire as Punto.

And i20 has little more power, but more turbo lag and almost same FE. Compare specs of Amaze and i20. Between i20 and Punto 90, I find Punto better overall, except interiors.

Learn to respect other peoples arguments before outright telling others dont have integrity.

[vb-saan]

I had a smile while reading through your response. This is what a brand like Fiat is capable of – to have an emotional connect with the owners. With these new strategies/plans, I hope they do well enough to make the brand appealing to more buyers, and more people get to experience that sort of connection with their cars.

Originally Posted by CliffHanger

For you, the USP of Fiat may be just the T-Jet engine. For many of us it is a lot more - The solid build, the sheer Ride, the Handling, the sense of safety, the looks that could put cars above many segments to shame, the dynamics, the nifty safety features such as the metal sheet running behind the back seat, etc etc.

You mentioned USP – Unique Selling Proposition or Unique Selling Point. It has to be one unique point which stands out for product. And I felt the T-Jet engine was one such unique strength, and hence mentioned it. What you mentioned are your take on the strengths of Fiat.

Originally Posted by CliffHanger

Nothing against the Amaze, but is just a look enough to understand the depth of engineering?

Unfortunately that’s case for me. When I buy something (car or any other product), I have to go by my own interpretation, experience with the brand, it’s track record, tests and reviews by knowledgeable folks , and other resources available. I personally may not buy an Amaze, but I am of the opinion that Honda products are well-engineered and reliable.

Originally Posted by CliffHanger

One of the reasons for relatively lesser space in the cabin is - The long protruding bonnet which in turn gives a bigger crumple zone.
What do you want? A little more space in the cabin or a cabin that is a little more safer?

Well, you can give it as a reason but I will still say it’s a shortcoming. Just for comparison, the Honda Jazz (which just got discontinued in India) was an epitome of space management with a short bonnet and almost MPV-ish design. It actually has slightly better Euro-NCAP rating than the Punto which is currently sold in India. Or check out the recently launched Fiat 500L MPV with a short bonnet. Its indeed the best rated small MPV in 2012 Euro-NCAP tests.

Originally Posted by CliffHanger

You are looking to buy a flat. Whom would you choose? A builder who is just starting his first construction or a builder who has proven establishments under him?
You may ask did Hyundai do that?

Sorry, but what are you trying to say? Who is the builder here with proven establishments? And did I mention Hyundai anywhere?

I am Fiat Constructions who is not doing well at the market. Now I go to the market saying that I am starting another premium spin-off called Jeep Constructions. Do you think the prospective buyer will have the trust to invest in the spin-off? It’s even a possibility that the spin-off company will do well if they hide their association with the former.

------------
I have mentioned this earlier also. What Fiat need is to enlarge its portfolio, make sure that it brings in refreshed products aligned to its global portfolio rather than tugging along with two old models. Rather than cars with Jeep/Chrysler logo, an influx of Fiat branded cars (Panda, Punto Evo, 500L etc.) is needed to enhance the brand. Bringing in Abarth variants is indeed a step in the right direction. Its time that they show their intend to be a serious player in the market, and I believe they are now awakening to that fact.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by 1100D

Seeing a current generation Fiat car ahead of oneself during peak hour office commute is so frustrating, even if the owner inside might be basking in Build quality, safety and handling perceptions.

Infact, i had to put an RD box just to slot the third gear!

Jokes apart - thats one wild over the top reaction, dont you think?

Punto 75/ Punto 90/ Linea 90 may not set the streets on fire with their performance, but they are not going to block your peak hour commute! And you have included T-Jet in that list too! I haven't driven the NA petrols though, but they would form max 20% of the cars.

I certainly agree that the cars need more pep, but not to this level.

[1100D]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Jokes apart - thats one wild over the top reaction, dont you think?

I certainly agree that the cars need more pep, but not to this level.

Ofcourse I am exaggerating!

But there's this frustration of having a brilliant chassis setup, fantastic driving posture, let down by the lack of pep in the current engines. Even T-jet is no great shakes when you compare the 1.6 that was standard on the first gen Sienna, then the GTX. Even the 1.9D that was regarded as a slowcoach, was difficult to be beaten on the highway between 80-120 by an Ikon 1.6 unless it was downshifted and third gear called for helping out.

Drive a well maintained Palio 1.2 (non NV) and Punto 1.2 back to back, frustrations bound to creep in. The old 1.2 was quite free revving, gearbox was more sure slotting. The soul seems to be just not there in the current set despite the good handling and build.

Then when you hear this talk of not thinking about numbers, one wonders then why do we have to make do with these engines in these states of tune if they did not want to appeal to a wider audience. A 90 bhp Punto diesel is much more fun to drive if the car was sold in Europe. Why can't our Indian ones drive like the ones in UK?

[KarthikK]

Originally Posted by 1100D

But there's this frustration of having a brilliant chassis setup, fantastic driving posture, let down by the lack of pep in the current engines. Even T-jet is no great shakes when you compare the 1.6 that was standard on the first gen Sienna, then the GTX.

Without meaning any offense to your opinion (I see this comparison a lot - GTX v/s T-Jet), you are comparing the Palio 1.6 GTX with a sedan having 200kg of added weight. What would be the case if you compare a Palio 1.6 GTX with a Palio 1.4 T-Jet, if such a thing existed.

The industry is shifting away from bigger displacement NA engines to smaller displacement turbocharged engines which are quicker, have truckloads of torque like diesels, and are still more fuel efficient, case in point being the Ecoboost and T-Jet engines. If a 1400cc detuned T-Jet engine with 200kg extra weight is able to post the same 0-100 time as a 1600cc GTX hatch (both are ~10 secs), albeit with some small amount of turbo lag, it should really be clear which one is the overall winner from a technology perspective. The 120PS T-Jet engine here, by the way is de-tuned for Indian fuel conditions. The natural tune for this engine (sold in other countries) is 155 PS with a 1400cc turbo-petrol.

Then when you hear this talk of not thinking about numbers, one wonders then why do we have to make do with these engines in these states of tune if they did not want to appeal to a wider audience.

+1 on this. They should have brought in the higher power variants to focus on the enthusiasts rather than entering the volumes market, if that was their intention from the beginning.

A 90 bhp Punto diesel is much more fun to drive if the car was sold in Europe. Why can't our Indian ones drive like the ones in UK?

Simply because
- our roads are bad (making them change their suspension setup for India)
- regular car buyers in India are more obsessed about fuel efficiency than anything else
- regular Indian buyers want good ground clearance, issueless servicing and low maintenance. Most of them don't know/care about what handling / dynamics are
- our govt imposes crazy tax structures on cars >4m in length, on engines > 1400cc, and so on.
- fuel quality in the country is bad compared to European standards

If all these things are fixed, we will see the Euro spec vehicles getting launched here without being de-tuned.

[1100D]

Originally Posted by KarthikK

Without meaning any offense to your opinion (I see this comparison a lot - GTX v/s T-Jet), you are comparing the Palio 1.6 GTX with a sedan having 200kg of added weight.

Nope. I was speaking about the 1.6 engine the first gen Siena/Siena Weekend was launched in, they used to call it "torque motor" or something. Those cars could match the Linea on weight and beat it hands down on fun.

I am not undervaluing the T-jet by any means, but just the way its been setup for India. Direct Injection Turbo petrol of 1.4 liters displacement should do much better than just keeping up with a 200cc additional displacement NA engine, which it manages to do in Europe. Its just that their India plans are funny.

[rohanjf]

Guys, things have changed since Siena days. Back then, pollution norms were much relaxed. Why else do you think most petrol engines lack bottom-end torque? During tests, engines are tested at lower RPMs (generally covered during day-to-day driving, in normal conditions).

I guess we've got a thread in technical section to discuss this.

As far as 1.4 Tjet is concerned, the 155 PS tune is with Multiair, right? As far as I know, 114 PS in Linea had DOHC. We are unlikely to see Multiair technology in Linea, as it has to have a very competetive price.

And I also hope to see an automatic option, as Fiat is the only foreign manufacturer that offers no automatic in India with their products.

[KarthikK]

Originally Posted by rohanjf

As far as 1.4 Tjet is concerned, the 155 PS tune is with Multiair, right? As far as I know, 114 PS in Linea had DOHC. We are unlikely to see Multiair technology in Linea, as it has to have a very competetive price.

Nope. The 155PS tune was present on the very first generation of T-Jet engines, dating back to as early as 2009. That was not a MultiAir version. The Multiair versions develop 165/185HP, which are present on the Abarth Punto and SuperSport. The performance gain with Multiair is just around 10% (155 v/s 165), if you discount the fact that the 185HP version is running at a higher state of tune.

The 114BHP version is only offered in India due to the de-tuning done to suit fuel quality and efficiency requirements here. Other places like Brazil and Turkey got the Linea T-Jet in the 155PS tune, with the same turbocharged 1.4 Fire engine (non-multiair). Now, I believe even they have moved on to Multiair versions.

And I also hope to see an automatic option, as Fiat is the only foreign manufacturer that offers no automatic in India with their products.

Definite area for improvement this. They ought to get more automatics into the lineup. Probably they are hesitating to launch the dualogic fearing high costs (and flops like what happened to the new Fiesta), but as an urban buyer I would like choices of automatics when I visit Fiat showrooms.

Honda is probably the only manufacturer to offer choice of automatics in literally every model that they have on sale - Brio, Amaze, City, Civic and Accord.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by KarthikK

Simply because
- our roads are bad (making them change their suspension setup for India)
- regular car buyers in India are more obsessed about fuel efficiency than anything else
- regular Indian buyers want good ground clearance, issueless servicing and low maintenance. Most of them don't know/care about what handling / dynamics are
- our govt imposes crazy tax structures on cars >4m in length, on engines > 1400cc, and so on.
- fuel quality in the country is bad compared to European standards

You missed the most important thing- pathetic choice of gear ratio. I just don't get it why they choose such short gearing. It needs 4th gear to hit hundred, unless you absolutely redline in 3rd (which again is pointless for an oil burner). At 120, it already has crossed the comfort zone of 3000 rpm.

Wish they had the same gearbox in India as in the European model.

[Vik0728]

OK Guys, here are the pics my cousin got from the Stockyard of the first batch "Re-worked Punto" !!




I am unable to make out any changes personally, but may be the SE was quite right.

Experts, please confirm.

Originally Posted by nkrishnap

Good insights there Vik0728. Which dealer is this by the way?

The updated/facelifts are supposed to launch on the 10th April (the dates that are floating around) on the internet.

The current Bossa Nova White is very mod friendly, they should retain this option while introducing the pearl white color (Vocal white in Fiat Terms). The Vocal white had some issues of paint peel off when it was initially launched sometime in 2009.

Do keep us updated with any insights you get.

Thanks bro, yes I am not sure if this is the F/L or a small iteration of the big things to come. This was from the dealer at Mekhri Circle, not sure about the name.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Interiors upgrade was discussed earlier - Punto was rumoured to get interiors shared with Linea from April. Afterall - in hatchback market - beige is considered premium.

I wish your words are true CrAzY dRiVeR but from the pics I have attached, I am not quite sure if that is happening on these ones.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by Vik0728

OK Guys, here are the pics my cousin got from the Stockyard of the first batch "Re-worked Punto" !! clap

I am unable to make out any changes personally, but may be the SE was quite right.

Experts, please confirm.

Thanks bro, yes I am not sure if this is the F/L or a small iteration of the big things to come. This was from the dealer at Mekhri Circle, not sure about the name.

wish your words are true CrAzY dRiVeR but from the pics I have attached, I am not quite sure if that is happening on these ones.

Reworked! Whats different here, other than alloys that look like its already collected lots of brakedust. This is certainly not what i heard from another dealer earlier!

[hemanth.anand]

Originally Posted by Vik0728

"Re-worked Punto" !!

If it was an accident vehicle or a transit-damaged vehicle, then this is a nice "re-work"

My eyes plus my spectacles are not able to find any difference between the current vehicle

but may be the SE was quite right.

What was he right about?
excuse me if you have already posted something and I've missed it.

[Vik0728]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Reworked! Whats different here, other than alloys that look like its already collected lots of brakedust. This is certainly not what i heard from another dealer earlier!

Well CrAzY dRiVeR as I posted earlier, its not an 'Actual Re-worked' Punto. Its just a Term I used since I could not think of any other!!

I swear I felt the same way when I actually looked at those alloys.

Originally Posted by hemanth.anand

If it was an accident vehicle or a transit-damaged vehicle, then this is a nice "re-work"

My eyes plus my spectacles are not able to find any difference between the current vehicle


What was he right about?
excuse me if you have already posted something and I've missed it.

Actually Hemanth my cousin said that the actual color looks better in flesh. This is supposed to be a little different white color.

Have no clue what's the "Difference" b/w this and your Abarth color.

[sandeepmohan]

Originally Posted by 1100D

Even T-jet is no great shakes when you compare the 1.6 that was standard on the first gen Sienna, then the GTX.

Not sure why you say this. The T Jet is one heck of an engine. It is just that we have not experienced a more powerful version for it. We get the lowest brake horse power version of the T Jet. I agree that from the days of the Siena/Punto, cars that had 100Bhp on tap over 10 years ago, the T Jet engine is nothing in terms of a power bump. On torque output, the T Jet sits at another level.

Then again, I can ask, which 1.6l engine today can beat the pep of the old Ikon 1.6l. This was not a high revving motor but boy did this car fly. Its another thing altogether that the Ikon did not have the brakes for the given power. Even in terms of efficiency, the Ford Rocam 1.6l is more efficient than my T Jet and is on par with 1.6l block from VW stable cars sold in India.

Originally Posted by 1100D

Even the 1.9D that was regarded as a slowcoach, was difficult to be beaten on the highway between 80-120 by an Ikon 1.6 unless it was downshifted and third gear called for helping out.

This I did not know as I have never driven a 1.9D.

Originally Posted by 1100D

Drive a well maintained Palio 1.2 (non NV) and Punto 1.2 back to back, frustrations bound to creep in. The old 1.2 was quite free revving, gearbox was more sure slotting

You are absolutely right. The Punto 1.2 is a dud beside the Palio 1.2. Here's an observation with the Punto 1.2 I have driven extensively. When the car was brand new, I was wondering if the car had even 30 bhp on tap. After 30000 km, this same car feels completely different. The engine has stayed butter smooth, is free revving which it just was not at the beginning (going past 3000rpm in gear was an achievement with the Punto 1.2l) and the power delivery is superb. It feels as if the engine is improving as the miles are added.

[1100D]

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

Not sure why you say this. The T Jet is one heck of an engine. .

Never questioned the Engine, its just that their India strategy is a bit strange. Even with the 1.3 multijet, its surprising that Fiat cars are slowest of the corresponding cars by other manufacturers using the same engine. Now before someone points at weight differentials, will like to say, not substantial enough to justify the performance difference.

With the Vista D90, the gear ratio's are also same, vehicle heavier, its simply engine mapping that keeps the Punto 90 substantially behind on a traffic light race.

Its likely that their engines do open up post running in, but what about their own engines in others cars, they seem to be quite responsive off the showroom floor.

So it all boils down to the thinktank of their Indian operations.