[civic-sense]

Thanks to the upgrade, the car now feels swifter and adequately powerful but under 2000rpm, there prevails a considerable amount of lag which forces you to work that not so sporty gearshift a little too much. The power delivery is very abrupt and downshifting during higher rpm is rough. If you put the pedal to the metal, you can feel that the car is a little sporty than its regular version since the engine now produces more power but the gearbox and the chassis spoil the fun.

Isn't this the same phenomenon that is often touted by Swift owners as turbo click? And it is supposedly addictive too. It becomes a bane only in Vista?

Originally Posted by sushantr5

Much is said about Tata motors service centers. I would say that it is at par industry quality. I have never experienced a single let down moment in last four years.

The second and third sentences do not compliment each other well. If you haven't experienced a let down moment in the last 4 years, then it has to be damn good, not just par with the industry standard.

[srh]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

I am sorry but it no where near Swift in terms of handling. My cousin owns one from the first batch of Vista's and I was scared to wits taking it over 100 kph on the highway with 5 people on board. The brakes arent up to mark, the suspension is too soft and don't even think about an emergency lane change manoeuvre lets you want to torture the occupant of the car. I am not sure how much has the new car improved but its a very average car on the highway.

Beg to disagree here. I regularly do these same maneuvers at 100 kmph in the first gen Indica without breaking sweat. I havent driven the Vista, but given the general understanding that it is way better than the first gen Indica, I can only laugh away the statement above

[extreme_torque]

Originally Posted by Maverick1977

I am sorry but I definitely beg top differ with you sir. My Vista is also from the 1st batch and I have driven at 155 km/h for a good distance and mind you that too with my family on board. Surprisingly my parents (in the back seat) didn't even realize the speeds. I will never forget my dad's comment that although he didn't feel the speed, he just felt that the scenery was moving too fast.
I have also had a few close calls on the highway (in one case a Tata 407 driver stretched himself to close the left door properly and his vehicle suddenly swayed to the right). I had to change lanes in a split second and although the experience was unnerving, the car not only changed lanes but also maintained its stability. My family was also shaken (who wouldn't be) with the incident, but then it would have happened to any one in any car.

Also what's the harm in giving multiple engine options? Isn't the Indian market supposed to be maturing? Most manufacturers offer multiple engine options in Europe and US, then what's the harm if an Indian manufacturer is trying to do the same here? However Tata's need top ensure that the SA is well trained and is able to talk to the customer, know his needs and address it properly. I know that a tough call since I have seen ill trained SA's in even the European brand showrooms. MSIL is no better, still remember when I had asked the SA at one of the showroom's the difference between BS3 & 4. pat came the reply - BS4 cars are safer than BS3. When asked for more details with respect to the Alto, his reply 'BS4 Alto has better brakes'. What more can I say?

I am only commenting on the handling part. I haven't said anything about any other thhing. Infact, Vista along with Figo is in my shortlist if they have improved the handling because in its 90hp guise it represents great VFM.
I know for sure that they have improved the brakes but I am not so sure of the handling.

Originally Posted by srh

Beg to disagree here. I regularly do these same maneuvers at 100 kmph in the first gen Indica without breaking sweat. I havent driven the Vista, but given the general understanding that it is way better than the first gen Indica, I can only laugh away the statement above

I am sorry but you havent driven the car and you are speaking as a 'know it all'. Even otherwise you may have completely different expectations on handling and something which is acceptable to you may not be acceptable to me. Please agree to disagree.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

otherwise you may have completely different expectations on handling and something which is acceptable to you may not be acceptable to me. Please agree to disagree.

True.

I have done multiple Chennai - Trivandrum drives in my WagonR. While many would tell that it handles like a boat around corners, I was comfortable with maintaining triple digit speeds in the car all day long. Never felt that the handling was a major pain to crib all the time.

However, after the Punto experience, I now realise what I've been missing in a WagonR. The same corners feel a bit unnerving now. Its all perspective, because our brain naturally benchmarks everything with what it feels as normal.

[1100D]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

Isn't this the same phenomenon that is often touted by Swift owners as turbo click? And it is supposedly addictive too. It becomes a bane only in Vista?

The second and third sentences do not compliment each other well. If you haven't experienced a let down moment in the last 4 years, then it has to be damn good, not just par with the industry standard.

The Turbo lag in the Swift is not much of an issue because the gearshift is quite positive in feel. With the same engine in Vista, the gearshifts are irritating due to the notchy feel of it. Hence the same Turbo lag manifests itself differently in the two cars.

Originally Posted by srh

Beg to disagree here. I regularly do these same maneuvers at 100 kmph in the first gen Indica without breaking sweat. I havent driven the Vista, but given the general understanding that it is way better than the first gen Indica, I can only laugh away the statement above

First Gen Indica is way different from the Vista and its characteristics are different too. Infact within the first gen Indica itself, there is difference between models manufactured over the years, some of them actually boasted good handling (despite the awkward steering position). So no use going into a vista discussion with the original Indica in mind.

Originally Posted by extreme_torque

I am only commenting on the handling part. Even otherwise you may have completely different expectations on handling and something which is acceptable to you may not be acceptable to me. Please agree to disagree.

I had a little unpleasant experience with a Vista at speed, mostly due to the fact that its steering did not weigh up with speed. I was clueless as to when and where to regain the grip, with the steering not communicating anything in terms of weight as well as feel. I feel Vista is one of the worst handlers at speed.

[srh]

Originally Posted by 1100D

First Gen Indica is way different from the Vista and its characteristics are different too. Infact within the first gen Indica itself, there is difference between models manufactured over the years, some of them actually boasted good handling (despite the awkward steering position). So no use going into a vista discussion with the original Indica in mind.

I had a little unpleasant experience with a Vista at speed, mostly due to the fact that its steering did not weigh up with speed. I was clueless as to when and where to regain the grip, with the steering not communicating anything in terms of weight as well as feel. I feel Vista is one of the worst handlers at speed.

I was responding more from the perspective of the stated speed - 100 kmph. I have no reason to believe that it is terrifying at that speed when I have often seen it being driven faster without being unsafe

Compared to some other cars, it might not be a great handler, but it is surely a generous overstatement to claim that it can't do 100kmph without raising your hair!

[1100D]

Originally Posted by srh

I was responding more from the perspective of the stated speed - 100 kmph. I have no reason to believe that it is terrifying at that speed when I have often seen it being driven faster without being unsafe

Compared to some other cars, it might not be a great handler, but it is surely a generous overstatement to claim that it can't do 100kmph without raising your hair!

Infact it did not raise a hair, was rather oblivious to what lies underneath. It was the avoidance manouever that caught me unawares of the feelless steering. Many folks can get themselves to adjust to that over a period of time, but the communication that some of the others offer is much more desirable.

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by 1100D

The Turbo lag in the Swift is not much of an issue because the gearshift is quite positive in feel. With the same engine in Vista, the gearshifts are irritating due to the notchy feel of it. Hence the same Turbo lag manifests itself differently in the two cars.

Turbo "kick" happens when you don't down the gear, but keep it in the higher gear allowing the engine to build the rpm slowly, and then suddenly when it reaches around 1800-2000 rpm, there is a sudden gush of power. While for the rest of the world it is annoying, it is often touted by some as something so addictive that they always wait for the turbo kick to happen.

[1100D]

You are right. However separating two different things here.

The Turbo Kick is defined rightly by this statement of yours.

Originally Posted by civic-sense

and then suddenly when it reaches around 1800-2000 rpm, there is a sudden gush of power.

But before this happens, you get this

Originally Posted by civic-sense

when you don't down the gear, but keep it in the higher gear allowing the engine to build the rpm slowly,

This is the turbo lag zone. Now if you do not want to wait for the rpm to build up slowly, especially while overtaking, and want a there and then response, you need to downshift so that the lower gear takes it to or above the turbo spooling zone. This downshift, will require using the gearbox.

Whereas using the gearbox is not unpleasant on the swift, for the vista its irritating. Thats where the turbo lag makes it undesirable on the vista although it has almost the same engine (probably different mapping and gearing).

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by 1100D

You are right. However separating two different things here.

The Turbo Kick is defined rightly by this statement of yours.



But before this happens, you get this



This is the turbo lag zone. Now if you do not want to wait for the rpm to build up slowly, especially while overtaking, and want a there and then response, you need to downshift so that the lower gear takes it to or above the turbo spooling zone. This downshift, will require using the gearbox.

Whereas using the gearbox is not unpleasant on the swift, for the vista its irritating. Thats where the turbo lag makes it undesirable on the vista although it has almost the same engine (probably different mapping and gearing).

Sorry for this, one last off-topic...

I perfectly understand that downshifting the gear gets rid of the lag. Look at the quoted part in my first comment. What I was commenting on was on the much touted turbo-kick. When you shift down, you get no kick, no fun, no addiction.

[1100D]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

Sorry for this, one last off-topic...

I perfectly understand that downshifting the gear gets rid of the lag. Look at the quoted part in my first comment. What I was commenting on was on the much touted turbo-kick. When you shift down, you get no kick, no fun, no addiction.

I am not sure how many people enjoy the Turbo Lag zone in anticipation of an impending kick. Especially when the priority is to quickly gain momentum to overtake a slow moving truck on a non-divided highway that lag is a known irritant, requiring an immediate downshift. In anycase in the zone the turbo works, you will get the kick anyway.

[vnabhi]

Originally Posted by 1100D

I am not sure how many people enjoy the Turbo Lag zone in anticipation of an impending kick. Especially when the priority is to quickly gain momentum to overtake a slow moving truck on a non-divided highway that lag is a known irritant, requiring an immediate downshift. In anycase in the zone the turbo works, you will get the kick anyway.

They might be those who travel frequently in the local trains towards Burdwan. Such trains take of slowly from the station, and all of a sudden they pickup speed!

Coming to the topic, I am glad that the Vista now has a non- central console, apart from a 90 bhp engine. The former was the main reason I dropped it from my shortlist. But I was really amazed by the refinement of the quadrajet even on the exterior.

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by vnabhi

They might be those who travel frequently in the local trains towards Burdwan. Such trains take of slowly from the station, and all of a sudden they pickup speed!

It's all talk, no kick. The average joe still works the modern diesels like their old Santros. By the time, their car achieve 40kmph, they would be in 5th gear. Because the service center guys had told them that the 5th gear gives the best MILEAGE. The turbos sit idle during the most part of its life.

[sushantr5]

If you are comparing turbo kicks in Swift and Vista, both engines are tuned differently and would feel different for each person. Vista generates pick torque at 1750 rpm while swift generates pick torque at 2200 rpm. I have fairly good experience with both cars. Swift is really addictive when turbo kicks but it is real pain as the lag is big. It requires frequent downshifts to keep in motion. But this thing is really addictive if you love aggression.

While vista is for cruising. Its 3rd and fourth gear is real delight. It betters swift in terms of in gear acceleration. It is best in industry (Small Car Buyer Guide Post in TBHP). This given immense ability to overtake and climb ghats swiftly by Vista. And this is agreed by my friend swift owner as well.

Gearshift in vista is not best to competitors as it is long throw gear box. But it is not real cause of worry at all. It is matter of habit.

Handling is not that great but not that bad as presented by some fellow bhpians. The suspension is tuned for comfort and ride quality. It is the Best. Highway handling is not cause of worry. But sudden lane changes should be executed with care. Figo and Swift feels really top notch in case handling. These two cars are really addictive and fun to drive. Vista is not tuned for such acrobatics. But it has different taste.

Steering, I might draw flak for this but as per me, Vista steering gives really good feedback compared to swift steering. EPS steering in swift feels really dumb for me. Feedback feels like simulated one but vista it is really good. One problem is that it does not weigh proportionally with speed but could be made matter of habit. Second while sudden turning it does feel it has some lag which takes away fun.

[1100D]

Originally Posted by sushantr5

But sudden lane changes should be executed with care. Figo and Swift feels really top notch in case handling. These two cars are really addictive and fun to drive.

One problem is that it does not weigh proportionally with speed but could be made matter of habit. Second while sudden turning it does feel it has some lag which takes away fun.

Agree to your post in totality, but would want to highlight the above portions from it which seems to be hiding inside. This is exactly that caught me unawares when I had to make an emergency lane change. In the end it did not turn out nasty, but I have decided not to drive that car again.