[agambhandari]

Originally Posted by vb-san

For me, when it comes to cars, safety, driving dynamics, reliability etc. gets priority over patriotism.

Some questions on patriotism in car buying decisions:
1) How many of us will go for a HM Ambassador based on this sentiment?

I dont think of the HM ambassador as a homegrown vehicle. It is an old british morris model which is still like the remanant of the British Raj.

[bobbafett]

I would absolutely want to have patriotism play a part in my car making decision. If Indians themselves dont buy Indian products, then nobody else will. Pride (though not false pride) is very important!

That said, I have recently booked a Skoda Yeti after agonizing over the XUV500 for months (and waiting for the Storme in the meanwhile).

So what happened to my patriotism since I eventually ended up booking a Yeti - I guess the only reason I picked the Yeti over XUV or the Storme was percieved safety of the vehicle - Yeti has 5 star NCAP ratings and was also more suitable for me and my wife sizewise.

But for my next car, a Thar is still totally on the cards!

[drsingh]

Originally Posted by vb-san

And one interesting fact - In Czech Republic the President’s official car is a Skoda Superb, Italian PM uses a Maserati, British PM’s official car is a a Jaquar etc. Even though these brands’ ownership lies elsewhere it’s still manufactured / assembled in their home country. Very much considered home grown. For comparison, the official car for the President of India is a Mercedes S Class. And I believe for the PM it’s a BMW 7-series.

I have always wondered why the Indian government doesn't use Indian branded specialty vehicles for the top brass and foreign dignitaries. Something like made to order defence vehicles of appropriate specs.

The Russians had their ladas....

The tatas and mahindras can definitely turn out a world class specialty product...

Made exclusively for the government..

[directinjection]

Cyrus Mistry comes to office in a Tata Manza!

[anu21v]

Originally Posted by MHG

Not necessarily. As per my limited understanding, the companies from abroad who set up shop here manufacture/assemble vehicles under the name of a company registered IN INDIA and hence pay taxes IN INDIA for profits earned by their INDIAN HOLDINGS.

Its funny how people simply forget the basic Economics. you see on every international Car sold in India a chunk of its revenues go out of country in the name of Royalty (for sure) and Profits (if at all).

Taxes are fine but if the portion of money goes out of economy, we lose the future benefits of that lost money due to loss in money rotation. Which is why Patriotism still makes overall sense

Note from Support - Please avoid quoting an entire lengthy post as it inconveniences our mobile and small screen users.

[Dr.Suraj]

Originally Posted by drsingh

I have always wondered why the Indian government doesn't use Indian branded specialty vehicles for the top brass and foreign dignitaries. Something like made to order defence vehicles of appropriate specs.

The Russians had their ladas....

The tatas and mahindras can definitely turn out a world class speciality product...

Made exclusively for the government..

Surely!

The Babus also now choose Honda City or Toyota Corolla over their old Ambassadors...
but - you still see a SIGNIFICANT number of Manzas, Indicas & Safaris as government vehicles.
Even Sumo and Bolero.

And the Mahindra Marksman is a lovely example of what CAN be done for the government and that our companies are capable too!

Originally Posted by directinjection

Cyrus Mistry comes to office in a Tata Manza!

I was about to type the same thing!

He could have come in a Jaguar XJ-L - still his own company ... but he comes in a Black Manza !

Originally Posted by anu21v

Its funny how people simply forget the basic Economics. you see on every international Car sold in India a chunk of its revenues go out of country in the name of Royalty (for sure) and Profits (if at all).

Taxes are fine but if the portion of money goes out of economy, we lose the future benefits of that lost money due to loss in money rotation. Which is why Patriotism still makes overall sense

I totally agree - a LARGE chunk goes out.
And we keep paying for quite a few years for these 'international marquees' in terms of service etc. where too significant sums of 'economics' find themselves with the parent ventures - OUT of India.

[Jeroen]

In general I'm not that big on Patriotism, but if I would I would have to look at different cars as I'm from the Netherlands!

So let's recall what (current) Dutch car manufacturer there are:

- Spijker ( see http://www.spykercars.com/ )
- Donkervoort ( see http://www.donkervoort.com/en/)

So with or without patrionism, going for a Dutch car should be fun.

Remember to bring your Amex platenium card though!

Jeroen

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by anu21v

Its funny how people simply forget the basic Economics. you see on every international Car sold in India a chunk of its revenues go out of country in the name of Royalty (for sure) and Profits (if at all). Taxes are fine but if the portion of money goes out of economy, we lose the future benefits of that lost money due to loss in money rotation. Which is why Patriotism still makes overall sense

Originally Posted by Dr.Suraj

Surely!I totally agree - a LARGE chunk goes out.
And we keep paying for quite a few years for these 'international marquees' in terms of service etc. where too significant sums of 'economics' find themselves with the parent ventures - OUT of India.

In the 1990s, Indian govt. followed a policy of "Dividend Balancing" which meant that an MNC operating in India had to export out of India goods/services worth an amount equal to or more than the amount that was repatriated to the parent company as dividend. This policy, which was in national interest, was abandoned after 2000, under pressure from MNCs.

In 2009, under MNC pressure, Indian Govt. also removed restrictions on the amount of money that could be repatriated as royalty and trademark fees to foreign parents by MNCs operating in India, resulting in a huge jump in such payments. Read an insightful account of how MNCs are fleecing India here:

http://indiacorplaw.blogspot.in/2012...corporate.html

Maruti-Suzuki exports merely 10% of its production out of India although it can export a lot more. The reason? Doing so would mean Maruti competing with its Japanese parent, jeopardising jobs in Japan!

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by agambhandari

I dont think of the HM ambassador as a homegrown vehicle. It is an old british morris model which is still like the remanant of the British Raj.

Agreed, but I don’t think we have a successful brand / mass manufacturer who have started all by itself from Indian roots. The other manufacturers being discussed here, Tata Motors and M&M – Tata motors started its commercial vehicle business in collaboration with Daimler-Benz, and its first mass market passenger car was designed by an Italian design house (IDEA or something). And M&M started off by assembling Willys Jeep.

For me, all the 3 brands discussed above (and the likes of PAL) are essentially Indian, irrespective of how they started

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by vb-san

Agreed, but I don’t think we have a successful brand / mass manufacturer who have started all by itself from Indian roots. The other manufacturers being discussed here, Tata Motors and M&M – Tata motors started its commercial vehicle business in collaboration with Daimler-Benz, and its first mass market passenger car was designed by an Italian design house (IDEA or something). And M&M started off by assembling Willys Jeep. For me, all the 3 brands discussed above (and the likes of PAL) are essentially Indian, irrespective of how they started

IDEA was responsible for "styling" the Indica. The basic design was done in-house by the ERC team. Incidentally, IDEA was also responsible for styling/designing the Palio in spite of Fiat being an auto company with 100 year experience.

There's a huge difference between the way Tata came out with the Indica and the manner in which HM and PAL introduced Ambassador and Fiat.

HM and PAL introduced in India products that had already been phased out in their countries of origin. These companies simply imported the collaborator's discarded plant & machinery to commence local manufacture of a foreign, unaltered product.

Indica on the other hand underwent the entire product conceptualisation, planning and development exercise that a new car made by any international manufacturer would undergo.

Putting Indica in the same bracket as Ambassador and Premier Padmini amounts to insulting the Indian auto engineers.

[MHG]

Originally Posted by masin4

Came across this article today:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/18108924.cms,

I guess the correct term to be used is "royalty" as mentioned in the report Maruti is the top payer to Suzuki of around Rs.1800 Crores .So a part of the money we spend on buying Swifts and Altos; according to the report 5% of the net sale amount goes to the parent company in Maruti's case at least.

Originally Posted by anu21v

Its funny how people simply forget the basic Economics. you see on every international Car sold in India a chunk of its revenues go out of country in the name of Royalty (for sure) and Profits (if at all).

Taxes are fine but if the portion of money goes out of economy, we lose the future benefits of that lost money due to loss in money rotation. Which is why Patriotism still makes overall sense

Do you know that even for "Indian" cars, the fuel injection systems are sourced from Bosch or Delphi ? A lot of other parts are sourced from companies based outside India. Here too royalties exist. By that sense there are no true "Indian" cars, and this includes Tatas and Mahindras.

And the concept of money in rotation may sound nice, but as far as an industrialist is concerned, he'd use that money only for furthering his industrial growth. Whether this growth happens in India itself (which even a foreign company can help happen) or outside (Tatas had been pumping money into JLR to bring it back to profitability) we have no control of.

[diffsoft]

Originally Posted by anu21v

Its funny how people simply forget the basic Economics. you see on every international Car sold in India a chunk of its revenues go out of country in the name of Royalty (for sure) and Profits (if at all).

Taxes are fine but if the portion of money goes out of economy, we lose the future benefits of that lost money due to loss in money rotation. Which is why Patriotism still makes overall sense

Patriotism is confusing and is often mistaken with blind pride. That comes in the way of economic benefits for people.

To your point on:

you see on every international Car sold in India a chunk of its revenues go out of country in the name of Royalty (for sure) and Profits (if at all).

Funds do go out as royalty, but they are generally deployed back into the parent's business, from which again customers, including Indians benefit. So Indians get the kind of car they want, like Etios / Liva / Ertiga and so on, including India's national diesel engine the Fiat MJD. So if I hold back royalty I am indirectly holding back benefits that Indians desire.

A chunk of revenues may go out as profit but the parent plows part of it back into the business benefiting customers. Now if the profits are given out as dividends, share holders benefits. And shareholders can be Indians holding shares of the foreign entity, be it VW, Diamler and so on and may benefit via dividends and capital appreciation. Anyone with a PAN can invest in an SIP that will invest in international funds investing in car makers, so Indians will lose an opportunity here.

To your point on:

Taxes are fine but if the portion of money goes out of economy, we lose the future benefits of that lost money due to loss in money rotation.

So the company takes money out of the Indian "economy" as you say and benefits rest of the world and "we" lose "future benefits.....rotation" - by this I presume you imply money working productively for you. But that's only part of the picture, and one that only shows the downside. The company that has taken this money out will be developing / making better cars for the world. This will lead to placing orders with Indian auto-suppliers, investing in R&D with Indian firms and their own centers here, and launch cars here. All this will get halted if we give place to "Patriotism".

Cheers,

[anu21v]

Originally Posted by diffsoft

Patriotism is confusing and is often mistaken with blind pride. That comes in the way of economic benefits for people.

To your point on:

Funds do go out as royalty, but they are generally deployed back into the parent's business, from which again customers, including Indians benefit. So Indians get the kind of car they want, like Etios / Liva / Ertiga and so on, including India's national diesel engine the Fiat MJD. So if I hold back royalty I am indirectly holding back benefits that Indians desire

So the company takes money out of the Indian "economy" as you say and benefits rest of the world and "we" lose "future benefits.....rotation" - by this I presume you imply money working productively for you. But that's only part of the picture, and one that only shows the downside. The company that has taken this money out will be developing / making better cars for the world. This will lead to placing orders with Indian auto-suppliers, investing in R&D with Indian firms and their own centers here, and launch cars here. All this will get halted if we give place to "Patriotism".

Cheers,

Ok Ok i got you, you all need to see the over riding theme of International Economics, This article should help you clear American Erudites' view.

http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/charlie-w..._orig=politics

unfortunate that i can't read/write Japanese/Chinese/Korean/German or I would have posted some of the articles from those countries as well, but rest assured you will find the same type of articles there as well.

[Dr.Suraj]

Originally Posted by directinjection

IDEA was responsible for "styling" the Indica. The basic design was done in-house by the ERC team. Incidentally, IDEA was also responsible for styling/designing the Palio in spite of Fiat being an auto company with 100 year experience.

There's a huge difference between the way Tata came out with the Indica and the manner in which HM and PAL introduced Ambassador and Fiat.

HM and PAL introduced in India products that had already been phased out in their countries of origin. These companies simply imported the collaborator's discarded plant & machinery to commence local manufacture of a foreign, unaltered product.

Indica on the other hand underwent the entire product conceptualisation, planning and development exercise that a new car made by any international manufacturer would undergo.

Putting Indica in the same bracket as Ambassador and Premier Padmini amounts to insulting the Indian auto engineers.

Absolutely agree to this 1.

Irrespective of the debate going on here
and the combination of foreign / Indian parts INSIDE the vehicle.

Definitely one cannot take away credit to the feat (impressive or not) and effort of the Indica, the Nano and the XUV 500.

[diffsoft]

Originally Posted by Dr.Suraj

Definitely one cannot take away credit to the feat (impressive or not) and effort of the Indica, the Nano and the XUV 500.

Without doubt it is an incredible feat esp the Nano, in face of all odds. It shows that Indian engineering, innovation and entrepreneurship is among the best in the world.