[4x4addict]

Originally Posted by 007 Bond

Next project on Gurkha is Gurkha with ABS, will 2.2 engine go is still doubt because its add to the cost an extra 1 to 1.5 lakh.

I don't think they need to put the 2.2. The 2.6 is capable of atleast 90 bhp. If they can bump the 2.6 to 90 bhp and about 25 kgm Torque it should suffice. But the ABS version is a real boon.

Gurkha can really take the fight to the Thar CRDe. If I can get a Gurkha that offers about 100 bhp with ABS, I will sell my Thar immediately and pick this one up.

Originally Posted by tsk1979

Its 2013. People expect a powerful engine in a Gurkha class of vehicle. Launching a vehicle with a low powered engine, in BS3 only trim will not get Gurkha sales. If it had a competent 120bhp engine and BS4, then it would have been a much better vehicle.
Launching gurkha with the 2.6 engine is a mistake IMHO.

Amen bro. 80 bhp is too low in this age for a lifestyle vehicle. 2.6 would have been sufficient if they had bumped up the power to atleast 100 bhp.

Originally Posted by Mpower

What about the OM616, ZF 5 spd and the rear axle? Doesn't your first statement contradict your second?

OM616 is a 90 bhp TCIC IDI engine. The 2.6 has very little common with the OM616. If I take the OM616 engine and ZF 5 Speed and fit it in my ambassador, will it become a G-wagen clone?

G-Wagen has solid axles with coil spring front and back. The original Trax had it's origins in the G-wagen, but Force has slowly chipped away at it's roots.

[Mpower]

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

OM616 is a 90 bhp TCIC IDI engine. The 2.6 has very little common with the OM616. If I take the OM616 engine and ZF 5 Speed and fit it in my ambassador, will it become a G-wagen clone?
but Force has slowly chipped away at it's roots.

OK 'very little common' is not the same as 'zero zilch nada'. Fact is, it has the same bottom end with a DI head.

Times are different. Its 2013 now and emission regulations and customer expectations of torque/power are not the same as 1989. They had to modify it to keep up with the times. Secondly the G460 was designed for German farmers so there is no point in trying to keeping it faithful to its roots.

Have they done a good job? HELL NO ! At least engine wise, their efforts and the results pale in comparison with how fantastically Mahindra has upgraded its old Peugeot design engines with AVL's assistance.

Originally Posted by 4x4addict

If I take the OM616 engine and ZF 5 Speed and fit it in my ambassador, will it become a G-wagen clone?

G-Wagen has solid axles with coil spring front and back

Sir, in what way does a Gurkha look like an Ambassador with OM616?

To answer you question: No, but if you design an ladder frame SUV with similar wheelbase, GC, approach, departure, ramp, articulation, wheel travel, tire-size, locking diffs... then it becomes a clone. I have already mentioned in my previous post about the Hanomag IFS.

At the end of the day, the results speak for themselves. If you know what you're doing, then you don't have to copy every nut and bolt to obtain a similar result.

Some say the Honda NSX was a clone of the Ferrari 328 & rue over it, but the fact is that its also a superb product by itself.

[Parm]

I can see the thread going the Thar way, when it was launched.

I dont see people appriciating the effort in launching the Gurkha with the things missing in Thar.

Now what purpose ABS has in offroading?

This is an offroad vehicle mean for offroading and not going to kitty parties or for a movie in the mall!

Please stop looking for comfort or options, look at the basic things provided for taking this vehicle offroad or else buy a Fortuner/SFX/Pajero Sport/Endy/Rexton/X1/Q7,5,3 etc.....

This is Thar, Gurkha and Gypsy territory.

[wild child]

MODERATOR NOTE:

Post Deleted! Use PM feature for 1-1 communication with other members

[powertrain]

I can see the thread going the Thar way, when it was launched.

Well said. I see it going the same way!!

I dont see people appriciating the effort in launching the Gurkha with the things missing in Thar.

I on the other hand, fully appreciate the effort FM took. What I don't appreciate is the price. Not that the Thar @ 8L is VFM. I think both Thar & Gurkha are overpriced.

Now what purpose ABS has in offroading?

I beg to differ over here. The 2013 Wrangler has ABS. Does that make it a less of an offroader. I admit that the price points between Gurkha/Thar & Wrangler are poles apart, but ABS technology is not pricey these days. The price difference between non ABS & ABS equipped car is not more than 50K's.
Since the development costs of Gurkha/Thar is not huge,I feel ABS could have been incorporated in the current prices, at least as optional extras.
All I'm saying is - Fun should not come at the price of Safety

Link to the Wrangler webpage - http://www.jeep.com/en/2013/wrangler...ent_avoidance/

This is an offroad vehicle mean for offroading and not going to kitty parties or for a movie in the mall!

I again,would beg to differ over here.Let's ask ourselves - How many of us have the liberty of owning
- A City hatch
- A fast highway sedan.
- A tough SUV/ offroader.
The Ans. - Not many!!Many of us Indians are a "One Car Family".
Now, why can't I have an offroader that's comfortable to go to the movies with family & that my wife can drive too. I suggest we look at Gurkha/Thar not just from offroading point of view.

A "comfortable compromise" is what I'm looking for. I hope I'm not asking for more.

Imagine the no.of times we can save ourselves from sticky situations, with an ABS equipped vehicle.
[/quote]

Regards,

Varun

[roy_libran]

Originally Posted by powertrain

I again,would beg to differ over here.Let's ask ourselves - How many of us have the liberty of owning
- A City hatch
- A fast highway sedan.
- A tough SUV/ offroader.
The Ans. - Not many!!Many of us Indians are a "One Car Family".
Varun

The very reason why all these different segments exist in the industry and the market, is because a "One Size Fits All" approach cannot!

Somehow the general expectation from the Gurkha seems to be that of a hard-core off-roader, a superb highway cruiser, a luxurious family sedan and a nimble city hatch, all rolled into one brilliant sub-8 lac package.
I hardly suppose, that is rational! And, it is immaterial whether a family is One-Car or not.

Still if I were to rank these individual components for the Gurkha, these would be my scores:

Hard-Core Off-Roader - 8/10. [Any more score on this scale, would require a customized build and extensive modifications, at the cost of a lot else]

Highway Cruiser - 5/10. [Just about (barely) acceptable speed and NVH levels, with adequate Braking for that speed capability. I'll be mad, in any case, to fly a Ladder chassis SUV @ 150 kmph anywhere, with or without ABS.]

Family Sedan - 5/10. [Basic comfort and ride quality is good and can seat 5 in comfort, with good boot space for luggage. My 16 month old loves riding this more than the family sedan! No luxuries though!]

Nimble Hatch - 7/10. [Relatively short overall length, and wheelbase with low turning radius, makes it easy to drive in the by-lanes of Old Delhi. Plus, you don't give two hoots about whether the rickshaw or auto next to you is going to scratch you. You automatically get space and respect. The only downside here, for which I deduct points is it's overall width.]

Price - 10/10. [For what it gives the 4wd HT is awesome VFM]

When buying the Gurkha, I was looking for exactly this kind of a do-all capability from a vehicle, and the Thar failed my list. Not that I have anything against the Thar though. MH**521 or not, it is still a fantastic vehicle, and one I love to drive off and on, but not care to own (as yet!) The Scorpio LX 4WD is another contender, but it scores lower on the Off-Road scale, and my judgement was heavily biased by that particular measure. Also, it was not available at the time I got my Gurkha, and is pricier now.

Please show me another vehicle, available in India, that can match these scores or better it!

[rk206]

Originally Posted by Harbir

What are you telling me? Thats a copy but WINK WINK we don't talk about that?

I specifically asked what is the relationship and the one response I got was "no relationship". Nobody else bothered sayng anything in response to me or that answer.

What is the relationship? Is it a copy? a good copy? How faithful a copy? Does it have articulation like A G-wagen? Is its spring and damper tuning similar to a G-wagen? is it robust like a G-wagen? does it have the quality control to take abuse like a g-wagen? Do I get g-wagen grade engineering? overall ability? If not, then what DO I get?

Just a good off roader? Thats great, but what if I had hoped for chassis behaviour (not just ability, but behaviour) similar to a g-wagen? I am not supposed to be interested in, or hopeful of that because its a good off roader?

Nobody has to be offended or get defensive. I am not judging or criticizing your enthusiasm or ownership of this vehicle. I was simply sharing what interested me about the Gurkha. If its different from why you love or want this vehicle, you ought not to be offended by my position.

Have you considered what the cost of a G-Wagen is ? and what the cost of a Gurkha is ?

and once you have thought the two numbers in your head, please ask yourself whether its even possible to have shared parts between the two aforementioned vehicles.

I don't know how many parts Gurkha and G-Wagen share and I could not care less. If I want the G-Wagen experience, then I ought to spend the amount and buy the actual thing rather than expecting the same sort of experience from another product.

Its like expecting a MICROMAX to offer me the same experience as an IPhone just because the MICROMAX is a copy of the Iphone (If such a thing did exist)

I don't mean to hurt your feelings or anything, I am just confounded by this viewpoint. I can't get my head around it.

[powertrain]

Originally Posted by roy_libran

The very reason why all these different segments exist in the industry and the market, is because a "One Size Fits All" approach cannot!

Very well put,my friend! But I also believe in the caption that "One Man-Many Roles"
For Eg - Aren't our fathers,excellent husbands & responsible brothers. I guess it's the same with cars. They cant just be "good offroaders".

I say this again - A "comfortable compromise" is what I'm looking for. And I'm just not comfortable knowing that I don't have ABS in my car, especially when I know what kind of id**s that rule the road.

Somehow the general expectation from the Gurkha seems to be that of a hard-core off-roader, a superb highway cruiser, a luxurious family sedan and a nimble city hatch, all rolled into one brilliant sub-8 lac package.

I don't know about others, but I never had the above expectation,my friend. All I'm asking is - "Should safety be optional?" - Be it a 1L Nano or a 10Cr. Benz.
What I'm expecting from FM/MM is a basic level of safety features from what is a 20+ year old design.

Hard-Core Off-Roader - 8/10.
Highway Cruiser - 5/10.
Family Sedan - 5/10.
Nimble Hatch - 7/10.
Price - 10/10.

Thanks brother, that makes things much clearer in my head!!

When buying the Gurkha, I was looking for exactly this kind of a do-all capability from a vehicle, and the Thar failed my list. Not that I have anything against the Thar though.

Same here, I neither for M&M,nor against FM or vice versa

Please show me another vehicle, available in India, that can match these scores or better it!

I cannot,and therein lies the absolute apathy/a massive opportunity for automobile manufacturers.

Regards,
Varun

[Parm]

Looks like we have a thumbs up for the Gurkha when it comes to VFM and a competent offroad vehicle in luxury of hardtop and AC with family in the rear seat!

Thanks for your positive un biased feedback, Roy.

[roy_libran]

A friend of mine booked a Matt Black HT 4X4 today at Rama Road Delhi Force Dealership, for 50k. Delivery promised in two months. Apparently this is their 11th booking at that dealership. Let's see how long they take etc. etc.

[Parm]

Originally Posted by roy_libran

A friend of mine booked a Matt Black HT 4X4 today at Rama Road Delhi Force Dealership, for 50k. Delivery promised in two months. Apparently this is their 11th booking at that dealership. Let's see how long they take etc. etc.

Thanks for the information Roy. i would like to follow as to how FM behaves and deliver a product just re-launched with much fan fare.

Well if its this dealer's 11th booking, then people must have liked the Gurkha!

[mohan]

The posts put forth on this thread made a very interesting reading .
I beg to differ with many friends on this forum on certain issues ;

• I dont think the Gurkha should be compared with any other vehicle ,least of all ,the THAR or GYPSY . The attributes of the Gurkha,positive and negative should be considered on its own standing. How many Thar or Gypsy owners can take their families along ,say from Mumbai, to attend the Palar-Challenge,mid-summer, in Chennai , participate in the event and drive back to Mumbai . I am sure very few hands would be found going up. However I would do all the above in my Gurkha ,and I am sure most Gurkha owners would do it .My very close friend Sunil from Bangalore , did a Himalayan expedition in his soft-top Gurkha along with his family comfortably and that too all by himself.
• We cant have the G Wagen at 8.2 lakhs ,so lets stop comparing it to the G Wagen. The current Gurkha has nothing in common with the G Wagen. The last batch of Gurkhas shared many parts with the G Wagen 460 D.( The front axles of my Gurkha are from the G Wagen 460 D manufactured by MB).

The New Gurkha is disappointing:

1. The Management-dealer disconnect is here to stay .So even after the official launch of the vehicle ,no dealer can tell when the vehicle would be available and the waiting period. No test vehicle is available even at prime dealerships.Recently a friend of mine , a Gurkha owner,approached Force motors for 3 Gurkhas(back-up vehicle) for his tri-nation bike expedition. The top-level response to his request was pathetic. He ended up booking the Isuzu D Max.
2. The ECU has been tweaked with minor changes to give the vehicle an 80 BHP power.This power is sufficent to take on most terrains and the highway but a BSIII is not acceptable . So much for the Mercedes Benz DERIVED engine which cant even keep up with the emission norms.
3. From one of the highlighted photos ,the workmanship of the Gurkha seems dubious .So its upto the new owner to spend quality time ,tying loose ends and making the vehicle fit enough to take on this cruel world.
4. The GC is now 210 mm ( vS 230 of the previous version) and unfortunately we cant put 7.5R 16 tires(taller tire) to increase it because the axle ratio is 4.3:1 which will eat the torque significantly.

At the end of the day , we as Indians do not have an economical option of a "comfortable" AND a real " go -anywhere" vehicle.

At the current price, at what Gurkha is being offered ,it stands the best option as a " Comfortable go -anywhere vehicle".

Thar and Gypsies have their own merits and strengths and I do not feel it appropriate to compare the GURKHA.

I am sure the FML marketing team is always keeping a tab on the public responses regarding its poroducts.

If FML had come up with a truly refined version of the Gurkha ,with a new BSIV engine putting atleast 120 bhp and a 300nm torque at 1500rpm with coil suspension and its usual features of Diff locks,snorkel ,p.t.o AND with its 4.9 :1 axle ratio, I would purchase it even at 12L and many would consider it appropriate too !

[4x4addict]

Doc: You summed it up perfectly. From your earlier post, I was hoping to get some sort of low end CRD engine (like the Bolero CRDe engine) with about 100 bhp at least. I am personally okay with fit and finish etc as my expectations are very low in this regard from Indian manufacturers. However, I don't understand why they don't give a decent power to weight ratio.

[apachelongbow]

If the demand for this Force Gurkha picks up, or even matches Force's projection, they will not hesitate in putting in the Force One CRDI engine (may be detuned) into the Gurkha. I think it would be a matter of just a year more or so...

For all the off roaders here, does it really matter that the Gurkha has 80bhp against an expected 100-120bhp? Is that much power required? I understand it makes a difference in highway cruising ofcourse..

[jeepbug]

i dont understand who advises these fools sitting in the board rooms , had they introduced 4 door version this would had made sense for families,
very true roy

Originally Posted by roy_libran

Regarding Pricing:

The Hard Top 4WD is priced spot on. BS3 or not! It offers more VFM than anything else in this class. It's USP's have been covered elsewhere on this thread, so no point repeating.

The Soft Top 4WD is priced plain lunar mad. Just cannot understand how you can ask for so much money without giving an AC and HT, and lesser interiors. Force Motors, if you are listening, look at this one urgently. Price this below the Thar CRDe, and this will be the one that flies off the shelves. Give AC as an optional fitment as well.

The Hard Top 2WD - Why do you even need to offer this? Who is ever going to consider this against a Scorpio, Safari, Bolero etc.? It does not come with four doors, and the competition offers significantly better interiors and NVH? This is a stupid diversification of your product portfolio and one that takes you away from your core strengths, and you could have spent that incremental money and energy on better things for the 4WD ones!

Just my thoughts...