[nkishore_007]

Caught this in my mobile cam. I liked the rear of the outgoing model though(but you never know when the "not so appealing" design grows on you).



Sent from my iPhone using Team-BHP

[iamswift]

It seems launch of New Jazz might extend beyond March'2015.
I guess I have to look for other options :(
http://ibnlive.in.com/news/honda-may...50-25-162.html

[shady_lawyer]

The launch being postponed perplexes me. The installed capacity of Honda India currently stands at 2,40,000 [here]. If we take the Team figures for October sales, Honda has sold a grand total of 1,14,908 cars including the CRV. This means that 52% of the capacity is still vacant for the rest of the year, in this scenario till May, 2015.
This is what leads me to the conundrum, is 52% idle capacity not enough to accomodate the Jazz, or is the existing order book already at 1,25,902 cars, leading to the delay in introduction of a new car??
Can experts shed some light in how exactly a production line utilizes installed capacity, and at what point does a company determine that the line is full, even if mathematically the numbers don't add up?

PS: the maths is all mine, which means the distance between the earth and moon as last calculated by me came to -64 kms. Still figuring that one out!

[damager21]

Originally Posted by shady_lawyer

The launch being postponed perplexes me. The installed capacity of Honda India currently stands at 2,40,000 [here]. If we take the Team figures for October sales, Honda has sold a grand total of 1,14,908 cars including the CRV. This means that 52% of the capacity is still vacant for the rest of the year, in this scenario till May, 2015.
This is what leads me to the conundrum, is 52% idle capacity not enough to accomodate the Jazz, or is the existing order book already at 1,25,902 cars, leading to the delay in introduction of a new car??
Can experts shed some light in how exactly a production line utilizes installed capacity, and at what point does a company determine that the line is full, even if mathematically the numbers don't add up?

PS: the maths is all mine, which means the distance between the earth and moon as last calculated by me came to -64 kms. Still figuring that one out!

To be fair to Honda, they never had an annual capacity of 2.4 lacs units. Till January this year, their monthly capacity was 10,000 units. In mid February, Tapukara plant became operational and they started with only one shift. This meant that from March till last month, Honda had a monthly capacity of 15,000 units.

Starting this month, Honda is starting second shift at Tapukara plant thereby increasing its capacity to 20,000 units. If you look at the sales figures from January to October, Honda has been averaging about 15,000 units per month and hence operating at 100% capacity.

Its quite likely that the additional capacity will help Honda cut down the waiting period for Honda City and Mobilio which is about 2 months.

What is surprising to me is that Honda believes that it will take them 3 months (Dec'14 to Feb'14) to bring down the current waiting period. Only if there is a backlog of over 20,000 units would it make sense for Honda to push launch date of Jazz.

I hope they launch Jazz in April or May and not push it to end of 2015.

[sgiitk]

I also look forward to the Jazz/Fit. By all accounts it should be a best seller.

[iamswift]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

I also look forward to the Jazz/Fit. By all accounts it should be a best seller.

I was of the same opinion too but recent News bits about City, Amaze and Mobilio are not too good. Now, to me its Wait and Watch after the release of Jazz.
Suddenly Elite i20 looks more attractive.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

By all accounts it should be a best seller.

I beg to differ. My view point:

Considering the new Jazz is priced a lakh less than the City and that the top variant of the Jazz is equivalent to the SV variant of the city- it should be priced within 6.19L for the petrol E MT to 8.54L for the SV MT diesel, all prices ex-showroom Delhi. The closest competitor- the Elite i20 range starts from 4.99L for the petrol Era to 7.66L for the diesel Asta, again ex-showroom Delhi.

That leaves the Jazz with a huge price disadvantage. Infact, Hyundai will still have a price advantage even if Jazz is priced a cool 2 lakhs lesser than the equivalent City variant.

Not to mention- the interiors of the Elite i20 feels much better in quality compared to the City and comes fully loaded, the diesel extremely refined. I don't think Jazz will get a V or a VX equivalent simply because it will be priced way too north for a hatchback, and Honda will have to make compromises to price it as low as possible this time around. Not to mention- i20 is an established brand name now while the Jazz is known as a flop model and has a lot of lost ground to regain.

Unlike the Verna which bowed away when the new City entered the segment- I think the Elite i20 will make a very strong case for itself once the Jazz is launched. Repeat of history perhaps?

[harry10]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

I also look forward to the Jazz/Fit. By all accounts it should be a best seller.

I agree with you Sir.
Not cos it's gonna be an awesome car but I feel Honda though deteriorating in quality is now able to lure the common man which is evident with the success of City and Amaze. Even Mobilio which is overpriced with sub par interiors is selling in decent numbers.

My guess is variant wise it will be around 20k-30k expensive than its main competitor Elite i20. I was looking forward to its launch so delay is a disappointment.

[damager21]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

I beg to differ. My view point-

Considering the new Jazz is priced a lakh less than the City and that the top variant of the Jazz is equivalent to the SV variant of the city- it should be priced within 6.19L for the petrol E MT to 8.54L for the SV MT diesel, all prices ex-showroom Delhi. The closest competitor- the Elite i20 range starts from 4.99L for the petrol Era to 7.66L for the diesel Asta, again ex-showroom Delhi.

That leaves the Jazz with a huge price disadvantage. Infact, Hyundai will still have a price advantage even if Jazz is priced a cool 2 lakhs lesser than the equivalent City variant.

I expect the base variant of Jazz to be priced around 5.5 lacs with a 1.2L petrol engine. If this was to be true, I would any day prefer Jazz over i20. I will be comfortable going for Honda at a premium of upto 50k over Hyundai. But if the launch price of Jazz was to be around 6 lacs, its a complete No go for me.

In my opinion, Honda will price Jazz aggressively as they would not want a repeat of what happened with their previous attempt. Over 6 lacs pricing is possible only if they were to launch Jazz with a 1.5L petrol engine but then, perception about being priced too high would definitely kill the product again.

I dont see Honda repeating their mistakes again.

[StarScream]

I hope there is an AT this time. I'd consider it to replace my aging Santro AT.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Anyways, lets substantiate anticipations with some facts and figures as well?

Originally Posted by harry10

My guess is variant wise it will be around 20k-30k expensive than its main competitor Elite i20.

Originally Posted by damager21

I expect the base variant of Jazz to be priced around 5.5 lacs with a 1.2L petrol engine.

Over 6 lacs pricing is possible only if they were to launch Jazz with a 1.5L petrol engine but then, perception about being priced too high would definitely kill the product again.

Starting price of 5.5L?

Honda City E variant costs 7.19L. First of all - are you guys suggesting that the same car will cost 5.5 lakhs without a boot? Remember we are almost talking about the same car here, except the boot! As Honda has stated earlier, it doesn't have much savings when building a hatch instead of a sedan. But yes, using the 1.2L engine should enable them to save some money.

Features!

Now, assuming you guys are correct and it is priced at 5.5L, it goes directly against the Magna variant of Elite i20-

It offers the following features over the E variant (Considering its equivalent to City E)

Body coloured door handles and mirrors.
2 DIN audio system with 4+2 speakers.
Bluetooth telephony
Steering mounted controls.
Central locking and foldable keyfob.
Day & Night mirror.
Vanity Mirror.
Cooled glovebox.
Rear a/c vent.
Front arm rest.

Jazz E would offer the below advantages

ABS + Airbags.
Fuel consumption display.

Even if they match the price tag 'anticipated', I think it would be very difficult to match the value proposition, at least in the minds of the common man. Similarly when it goes up the range as well. Not to mention the quality feel in the i20 compared to even the City.

I wish the Jazz succeeds as well, but chances are too slim! Might be they realize this and are pushing for heavier localization before launch.

[The Observer]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

I beg to differ. My view point-

Not to mention- the interiors of the Elite i20 feels much better in quality compared to the City and comes fully loaded, the diesel extremely refined. I don't think Jazz will get a V or a VX equivalent simply because it will be priced way too north for a hatchback, and Honda will have to make compromises to price it as low as possible this time around. Not to mention- i20 is an established brand name now while the Jazz is known as a flop model and has a lot of lost ground to regain.

Nicely put, but i too beg to differ, i am a "JAZZ" fan even though i don't own one and think that it is an "admired" car by many here in our forum - its a superbly designed and equipped hatchback in my opinion , alas the pricing was bang on the wrong side in India.

I would never call the Jazz a "flop" either - the only and "only" reason it did not sell was its pricing, i know of at least 2 people in my friends circle who while considering other cars immediately went for the Jazz when Honda corrected its price ( this was back in 2010 if i remember correctly)

I am with you when you say elite i20 will offer some competition, and you're spot on that Honda will have to make compromises to price it sensibly in India, but the key word here is "compromise" - car on car ( if not for the price) Jazz is a clear winner over the elite i20.

Never thought Mobilio ( no offense to the car) will contribute to the reason why Jazz will be delayed, saw two brand new Mobilio idtecs day before yesterday - on next door being washed and one in my office - On both occasions i was pleasantly surprised.

[swiftnfurious]

I seriously hope they keep the Jazz indeed premium with respect to the features / interior quality and do NOT go for the BEST FE award + the budget interiors of Amaze / Brio / Mobilio!! With the external looks to match, this car could win many hearts if they play it fair.

[nkishore_007]

What exactly are our expectations from a "premium" hatch as we normally refer to some models. I would leave out the really pricey hatches from this as of now.
Good quality, features better or comparable to any other vehicles of the same class, safety, looks, better feedback from the machine, etc.

Personally, I tend not to get impressed at models which get sold like hot pan cakes (every third person has them kinds) regardless of how awesome or VFM that model is.

Now what does Honda want from Jazz? Get sold like Swift or i20 ? They need to be sure on what they expect. The pricing models can be really made simple if they can answer that to themselves. Quantity and quality do not always go hand in hand (rather do not go hand in hand at all).
Will they bring in a bigger capacity heart? If yes, then that model would be pricey. It is not correct to expect a $150 dollar value in $100 product. It is simply wrong from every single angle. For Honda and consumers, you guys define what you need. Last time, it was bad pricing (as everyone calls it), and then came the sudden surge of introspection and the prices reduced by a significant margin.

If I get to sit (and decide) in Honda's board of Product Managers, I will choose the following:

1) Minimum number of variants (maybe stick to two; three is also fine)
2) All variants carry at least ABS+EBD, Front airbags
3) Top end can have ESP/traction control
4) Good ICE (if not the best)
5) Understand the target audience's needs (first define who is going to be the target audience)
6) Sustainability & A.S.S.

Easier said than done, but if I can define these in black and white, I guess, we will have a winner. And, as part of the evolving consumer mindset, lets change the way we think of a model by looking at the sheer numbers they get sold at as it does not reflect that model per se.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by The Observer

Nicely put, but i too beg to differ, i am a "JAZZ" fan even though i don't own one and think that it is an "admired" car by many here in our forum - its a superbly designed and equipped hatchback in my opinion , alas the pricing was bang on the wrong side in India.

I would never call the Jazz a "flop" either - the only and "only" reason it did not sell was its pricing, i know of at least 2 people in my friends circle who while considering other cars immediately went for the Jazz when Honda corrected its price ( this was back in 2010 if i remember correctly)

Agree with the 'superbly' designed part completely. Jazz epitomizes Honda philosophy of 'man maximum, machine minimum'. Brilliant packaging! I would prefer the old Jazz to the current trend of sub-4m sedans any given day. Infact, we waited for Jazz launch for sometime (as a WagonR replacement for parents) but had to give up and get an Xcent SX(o) AT thanks to the endless wait.

However - there is no denying that it was a flop in terms of sales, thanks to the ridiculously high price tag it came with initially - 6.98L ex-Delhi. It was corrected in August 2011, but that never did any good to the sales of the car. Please find the sales for an year after the price correction.

Originally Posted by The Observer

I am with you when you say elite i20 will offer some competition, and you're spot on that Honda will have to make compromises to price it sensibly in India, but the key word here is "compromise" - car on car ( if not for the price) Jazz is a clear winner over the elite i20.

Never thought Mobilio ( no offense to the car) will contribute to the reason why Jazz will be delayed, saw two brand new Mobilio idtecs day before yesterday - on next door being washed and one in my office - On both occasions i was pleasantly surprised.

We are expecting the upgraded generation of a car which was launched only a couple of thousands less than the 7L mark last time around, to go on sale close to the 5.5L mark - with Honda themselves mentioning better pricing this time around. Key word is 'compromise'.

Mobilio is a big cash cow for Honda India. It shares the platform, interiors etc with the Brio priced in the 4.05L - 6.12L price bracket, but is priced at 6.49L to 11.54L bracket. The profit margins would be really thick for Honda, as compared to the something like the Jazz where they are officially trying to reduce prices as much as possible. It is no wonder that Mobilio takes priority for them.

Originally Posted by nkishore_007

Personally, I tend not to get impressed at models which get sold like hot pan cakes (every third person has them kinds) regardless of how awesome or VFM that model is.

Now what does Honda want from Jazz? Get sold like Swift or i20 ? They need to be sure on what they expect. The pricing models can be really made simple if they can answer that to themselves. Quantity and quality do not always go hand in hand (rather do not go hand in hand at all).

Exactly what Honda should be asking themselves. Their recent attempts have been at mass sellers like the City, Amaze and Mobilio.

The Jazz displayed at the Auto Expo did not have steering mounted controls, automatic climate control (had old school rotary a/c controls actually), and lose out on the famous magic seats of the earlier generation. I just hope they don't lose out of quality as well as quantity going in search of that price tag.