[khoj]

With the end of Q2 all dealers across brands will be billed extras in order to achieve set targets. Discount season is around the corner.

Originally Posted by Leoshashi

Additionally, I noticed about 12 Trailers full of Maruti Cars(Mostly Wagon R and Alto, no Swift siblings) waiting to be unloaded. This is unusual as maximum 3-4 trailers come to the yard daily. Showroom manager told me Maruti is billing extra cars to them and are asking them to maintain a surplus of every model for the festive season.

[eyesice]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

The wheelbase of 2650mm is so close to what D-segmenters like the Civic (2700mm) offered not so long ago! C segmenters are really matching the old D's in terms of size. Only engine sizes are going south!

Exactly my thoughts! I guess value for money for Indians means you get things which are bigger in size for less money and Maruti is exploiting this norm way too much.

I can only imagine a Ciaz which oozes luxury inside, trying hard to overtake a lorry on the highway while a Polo GT TDI just zips past it

[rajshenoy]

Originally Posted by eyesice

Exactly my thoughts! I guess value for money for Indians means you get things which are bigger in size for less money and Maruti is exploiting this norm way too much.

I can only imagine a Ciaz which oozes luxury inside, trying hard to overtake a lorry on the highway while a Polo GT TDI just zips past it

Not everyone wants to zip past a lorry anyways
Target consumer for Maruti has been always those who are upgrading from hatchbacks and those in smaller cities.
There are many who keep a driver and Ciaz will be perfect for those !! Instead of buying a Polo GT TDI, the driver will do the needful

[aseem]

Originally Posted by saket77

In recent past, they have given the Indian market its first AMT (though debatable, but still Maruti took it to masses in a very simple way) and just read on the forum a few days back that they are in the advanced stages of developing the first mass hybrid car. Bringing these technologies to general masses is something only Maruti can do because of its wider acceptability and higher sales to spread the costs over large numbers. And I believe they are now doing so. AMT is all set to make its way into the entry level cars of Maruti. Should we get the hybrids, it will be perfect for our households
Saket

Well forget hybrid and other fancy technologies. Why cant they offer the 6 speed CVT offered in China for Ciaz, or the better head unit or sunroof. I can expect VW to focus on China and offer more premium offerings there as they don't have economies of scale in India.

But come why cant Suzuki offer the same product that they offer in China to India? Charge 20k more, but offer it!

Originally Posted by eyesice

Exactly my thoughts! I guess value for money for Indians means you get things which are bigger in size for less money and Maruti is exploiting this norm way too much.

I can only imagine a Ciaz which oozes luxury inside, trying hard to overtake a lorry on the highway while a Polo GT TDI just zips past it

Well that's quite a wishful thinking & stretching it quite a bit. The Polo GT Tdi is a hot hatch by Indian standards, but end of the day it does 0-100 in 10.51sec vs Ciaz that does it in 11.3 sec which is same as Vento.

So unless someone is flooring the throttle and holding a stopwatch, I don't know what the GT Tdi guy would gain.

What about non GT Polo or the earlier MPi (1.6) Vento, they would be beaten by an Alto K10 does it make their car better?

There is more to a car then performance. As an engine gearbox VW cars (Polo, Vento etc. etc.) win but when it comes to overall package which includes space, features, 16" tires, and reliability (including aftersales service) Ciaz truly "Smokes" VW away....

[eyesice]

Originally Posted by rajshenoy

There are many who keep a driver and Ciaz will be perfect for those !! Instead of buying a Polo GT TDI, the driver will do the needful

Point taken. I think the Ciaz is a great car to compete against the Sunny and Scala all of which are big ( and mostly chauffuer driven ) with mediocre engines.

Originally Posted by aseem

There is more to a car then performance. As an engine gearbox VW cars (Polo, Vento etc. etc.) win but when it comes to overall package which includes space, features, 16" tires, and reliability (including aftersales service) Ciaz truly "Smokes" VW away....

Again point taken. The Maruti is great on reliability. However I cannot digest the fact that they are using the same engine on 3 different segments.

[aseem]

Originally Posted by eyesice

Again point taken. The Maruti is great on reliability. However I cannot digest the fact that they are using the same engine on 3 different segments.

Isnt VW doing the same?

They are using the 1.2 TSi on the Vento, Rapid, Polo in same state of tune.

They are using the 1.5 ltr diesel in Polo GT, Vento, Rapid in same state of tune.

Isn't Fiat doing the same?

Isn't Honda doing the same?

Why single out MUL?

At least MUL is using different state of tunes in Swift & Ciaz. Plus you cant really blame MUL as VW is doing the same.

The segment benchmark is as follows:

90-110 bhp in diesel (Verna being outliar)
200+ nm of torque

Given that Ciaz is lighter then a the Polo, it has quite "respectable" real world performance and doesn't give any false sense of power with a GT badge on a car with 100 horses!

[RavenAvi]

Maruti-Suzuki would be wise - they know that on technical specifications alone, their Ciaz is no-match for the Ventos/Rapids/Vernas, and on brand image, they can't beat the Honda City.

What they will be targetting, is the consumer base for the Fiesta/Linea/Sunny/Scala, and a few from the Vento/Rapid/Verna/City group, simply by highlighting three crucial points:

1) The famed MSIL ease-of-maintenance-and-service,
2) The strength of their "ARAI" FE numbers, and
3) Product-on-offer vis-a-vis dynamite pricing.

Have a look at these charts, and my projection at where the Ciaz variants should be priced at:

Any higher, and they will be shooting themselves in the foot.

They KNOW that the Ciaz won't sell if it comes at 10 lac, ex-showroom. Pretty much assured that the pricing will be on the Fiesta/Linea/Sunny lines, undercutting the City/Verna/Vento by a fair margin.

MSIL will surprise us, no doubt. And that should help them find takers for the Ciaz.

[aseem]

Originally Posted by RavenAvi

They KNOW that the Ciaz won't sell if it comes at 10 lac, ex-showroom. Pretty much assured that the pricing will be on the Fiesta/Linea/Sunny lines, undercutting the City/Verna/Vento by a fair margin.

MSIL will surprise us, no doubt. And that should help them find takers for the Ciaz.
[/left]
[/center]

Well let MUL price it same as City. I can assure you even if Dezire is priced same as Amaze & Swift higher then Brio, they will have takers. Yes the middle class is attracted to Honda badge as their first "big" car, but there are many who have grown over it and focus on the product and not just the brand.

Having said that the MUL brand is not necessarily a bad thing. I regret buying Polo for my wife and not the Swift. Actually Swift had no discounts and was coming 50k more expensive for the Zdi that's why I went for comfort line Polo Tdi.

As far as specs are concerned, the Ciaz is faster to a ton compared to the City diesel by almost 3 seconds. Its larger then the City, has more mileage and better features. Add to that it "may" come at a lower price.... then apart form the "H" badge, what would stand out for the diesel City?

Ciaz is a competition to City and only City. No other cars will come close to its sales figures and perhaps City, Ciaz and Verna would fight for the top spots. The Vento's, Rapid's & Fiesta's wouldn't even come close, period!

[eyesice]

Originally Posted by aseem

Isnt VW doing the same?

They are using the 1.2 TSi on the Vento, Rapid, Polo in same state of tune.

Just read GTO's thread this morning - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ions-goes.html

The 1.2 TSI has 104 BHP & 175 Nm torque (Polo, Vento). They are not selling the 1.2L TDI Diesel with 74 BHP & 180 Nm torque (Polo) on all cars.

Originally Posted by aseem

They are using the 1.5 ltr diesel in Polo GT, Vento, Rapid in same state of tune.

There is a 1.5L TDI Diesel with 89 BHP & 230 Nm torque (Polo only). There are also 2 more options - 1.5L TDI Diesel with 104 BHP & 250 Nm torque (Polo GT TDI, Vento, Rapid) & 1.6L TDI Diesel with 104 BHP & 250 Nm torque (Polo GT TDI, Vento, Rapid).

Originally Posted by aseem

Isn't Fiat doing the same?

Wholeheartedly agree with you.

Originally Posted by aseem

Isn't Honda doing the same?

The diesel engine shared among the Amaze and the City are pretty competent. I highly doubt that they will plonk the 1.5L 100 BHP unit on a Brio ( if ever, they do that ).

Originally Posted by aseem

90-110 bhp in diesel (Verna being outliar)
200+ nm of torque

Given that Ciaz is lighter then a the Polo, it has quite "respectable" real world performance and doesn't give any false sense of power with a GT badge on a car with 100 horses!

I maybe wrong but I highly doubt whether the Ciaz will be built as solidly as a Vento / Polo. For a premium sedan, I would expect it to be solidly built (with good body weight) while still providing a decent P/W ratio for the money that I throw in.

Quoting another thread regarding structural build quality and safety of Indian cars - http://www.team-bhp.com/news/popular...ly-crash-tests

The Ford Figo and Volkswagen Polo managed put up a better performance when it came to structural integrity. Fitting airbags would improve their score substantially. A Polo fitted with airbags was crash tested as well. It managed to score four stars for adult occupant safety. Coming to the results, all cars except the Figo and the airbag-equipped Polo failed.

[RavenAvi]

Originally Posted by aseem

Well let MUL price it same as City. I can assure you even if Dezire is priced same as Amaze & Swift higher then Brio, they will have takers. Yes the middle class is attracted to Honda badge as their first "big" car, but there are many who have grown over it and focus on the product and not just the brand.

Well, the general public is still running after the City, even after reports of shoddy fit-and-finish, engine noises, atrocious NVH levels of the diesel, niggles, persistent problems, inferior quality, etc. Month after month of sales numbers show that. A fantastic driver's car such as the Fiesta finds few takers, even when priced an entire kidney below the City. Doesn't that say a lot about the car-buying public in this bracket?

Let's be sensible here, and see how MSIL can pull out at least 2500-3000 cars in monthly sales at least. Over-ambitions can only lead to the grave.

Originally Posted by aseem

Having said that the MUL brand is not necessarily a bad thing. I regret buying Polo for my wife and not the Swift. Actually Swift had no discounts and was coming 50k more expensive for the Zdi that's why I went for comfort line Polo Tdi.

And if you checked my latest thread about buying my 68-year-old father a birthday gift, keeping his ardent-petrolhead mentality in mind, it was the Swift ZXI, and not the facelifted Polo or the Elite i20. That too by availing company loan, when I had no cash in hand.

Why do you think I went for the Maruti? Read my thread and you will know.

Originally Posted by aseem

As far as specs are concerned, the Ciaz is faster to a ton compared to the City diesel by almost 3 seconds. Its larger then the City, has more mileage and better features. Add to that it "may" come at a lower price.... then apart form the "H" badge, what would stand out for the diesel City?

Is the normal car-buying public interested in 0-100 numbers? And, if only features sold in this segment, Verna would still be the leader.

The Honda City brand is hard to beat. Even in it's petrol-only avatar, the City consistently sold 3000-odd numbers, and now with the diesel in tow, with spec-numbers far below the Vento, Rapid & Verna, it's the segment bestseller. Even when it's beaten comprehensively in the feature-list by the Verna.

Originally Posted by aseem

Ciaz is a competition to City and only City. No other cars will come close to its sales figures and perhaps City, Ciaz and Verna would fight for the top spots. The Vento's, Rapid's & Fiesta's wouldn't even come close, period!

I really hope, for MSIL's sake, that the Ciaz sells well. It is a honest attempt by them to crack the C2-segment, where they have failed before. But let's face it - the fight to the City & the Verna would be tough for them. They will do the right thing by keeping the pricing reasonable, because the Fiesta's pricing has opened the segment wide open. Now even the Amaze and the XCent feel overpriced!

MSIL should know and realise this. If not, the Ciaz will end up going the SX4 route.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Are we still discussing Honda City v/s Ciaz pricing? I thought this discussion ended 2 weeks back when the media drives got over, and everyone wanted to discuss pricing.

Anyways, Autocar India magazine for October is already out on the stands with a comparo of the City v/s the Ciaz. Anyone had a chance to read through it?

[saket77]

Originally Posted by aseem

But come why cant Suzuki offer the same product that they offer in China to India? Charge 20k more, but offer it!

Dear Aseem,

In my opinion, it is very important for the Ciaz to undercut the segment prices. For eg. the Honda City. Maruti knows that Honda is perceived more as a premium brand than Maruti, hence if they price the Ciaz over the City, there would be not many takers. Hence, in this segment they would be cashing on their own strengths. Challenging their limitations at this point may not be a wise game.

Regards,
Saket

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by RavenAvi

Just because I own a City, doesn't mean I am a blind fan of the City or all things Honda. If you had bothered to read my City ownership reports, you would realise how vocally critical I have been of Honda's steady-decline in standards in the past few years, much so with the 2014 City.

I don't take sides, and call a spade a spade. There are bigger things in life to worry about, than siding blindly about cars and arguing over them.

If you had read ALL my previous posts in this thread AND had been a friend/follower of my Facebook profile, you would know/realise how much I have been backing the Ciaz, right from the day MSIL started the media drives. So much so, that my friends have started asking me if I would be selling my 6-month old 2014 City and buying the Ciaz?!






And if you checked my latest thread about buying my 68-year-old father a birthday gift, keeping his ardent-petrolhead mentality in mind, it was the Swift ZXI, and not the facelifted Polo or the Elite i20. That too by availing company loan, when I had no cash in hand.

Why do you think I went for the Maruti? Read my thread and you will know.



Is the normal car-buying public interested in 0-100 numbers? And, if only features sold in this segment, Verna would still be the leader.

The Honda City brand is hard to beat. Even in it's petrol-only avatar, the City consistently sold 3000-odd numbers, and now with the diesel in tow, with spec-numbers far below the Vento, Rapid & Verna, it's the segment bestseller. Even when it's beaten comprehensively in the feature-list by the Verna.

.

Totally agree man. Even I was going to ask if you were selling your City and buying the Ciaz Anyways as you said, its calling a spade a spade. Though a few months from now I may buy the Cuaz, its after knowing both the ups and downs, and prioritising what is our necessity and what isn't.

Comparing the Ciaz to a Vento diesel will be good to go on paper with the acceleration figures favouring the Ciaz. But when it comes to a practical situation, the overall power torque spread of the Vento would be better which would mean good response to any kind of driver, be it sedate or aggressive. Hence, lets put aside that comparison. End of the day, CC is CC no matter what the power or torque figures are.

Regarding pricing, IMO Ciaz should undercut city NOT because its an inferior product by any sort. It is because that's one way how a prospective city owner can be made to divert towards the Ciaz. When they compare the two cars side by side, a person buying the city will realise he will be paying extra money just for the H badge. That's when some people rethink their decisions. And that's what happened when the SX4 was launched. When the pricing undercuts competition, there will be very little left for people to go in favour of a more expensive vehicle. Hence I don't think MSIL is dumb enough to price it along the city or Verna or sorts. That will make people think why they should pay a premium for a Hyundai, or a Honda when they get so much in the Ciaz.

[Kratos453]

Originally Posted by audioholic

Comparing the Ciaz to a Vento diesel will be good to go on paper with the acceleration figures favouring the Ciaz. But when it comes to a practical situation, the overall power torque spread of the Vento would be better which would mean good response to any kind of driver, be it sedate or aggressive. Hence, lets put aside that comparison. End of the day, CC is CC no matter what the power or torque figures are.

Sir, I agree CC is CC but please don't be blinded by that. A Ford ecoboost engine is just a 1.0L engine but with a 125 ps power output.

ENGINE. 999 Displacement(cc); 10:1 Compression Ratio; Max Power output in PS(KW) / RPM : 125(92)@6000 RPM

It is the power output and weight to power ratio what really matters.

If Ciaz is capable of producing figures that are equivalent to Vento with a 1.3L engine then I believe it is a great achievement by Maruti. I know it's a bitter pill to swallow for most enthusiasts but come on; appreciate what Maruti is trying to do.

[aseem]

Originally Posted by RavenAvi

Just because I own a City, doesn't mean I am a blind fan of the City or all things Honda. If you had bothered to read my City ownership reports, you would realise how vocally critical I have been of Honda's steady-decline in standards in the past few years, much so with the 2014 City..

I don't follow or read all your threads. But I agree Honda has corrected its pricing at the expense of reducing quality and part sharing between Brio, Amaze, City and Mobilio. Which maybe a good thing for Brio but not a good thing for City.

Originally Posted by RavenAvi

I don't take sides, and call a spade a spade. There are bigger things in life to worry about, than siding blindly about cars and arguing over them..

Well we call a spade a spade because someone taught us what spade is. One man's hero is another man's zero. If you read George Berkeley views on objectivity you would realize that there is no objectivity without subjectivity. In other words we cant measure anything without changing it. That's why two people reading the same news article derive different conclusions.

That's the beauty of having a "perspective" and having an opinion. I am very "opinionated" and I don't claim to be objective. At least I am not lieing to myself by claiming to be "objective".

Originally Posted by RavenAvi

Well, the general public is still running after the City, even after reports of shoddy fit-and-finish, engine noises, atrocious NVH levels of the diesel, niggles, persistent problems, inferior quality, etc. Month after month of sales numbers show that. A fantastic driver's car such as the Fiesta finds few takers, even when priced an entire kidney below the City. Doesn't that say a lot about the car-buying public in this bracket?.

I am not so sure about that. A certain section of the upper middle class may flock for Honda. But MUL & Ciaz is not Fiesta (ask me I sold Honda City 2010 to buy the 2012 Fiesta). Just like Dzire held its own against Amaze, Swift blew away the Brio, if the product is good (which I don't know yet) then Ciaz can knock City off the buying charts. The public moved away from Civic and the Accords, they also moved away from the City when it didn't have the diesel. So don't underestimate the power of a common man

Originally Posted by RavenAvi

Let's be sensible here, and see how MSIL can pull out at least 2500-3000 cars in monthly sales at least. Over-ambitions can only lead to the grave..

So you changed your original argument that Ciaz is competing with Sunny's and Fiesta's to doing 3000 units a month (which I am sure Sunny, Fiesta, Rapid combined don't do).

Well lets be practical you think Suzuki is truly launching the car to compete with Fiesta's and the Sunny's. That's a pipe dream. Maruti has all intention of being a volume player in this segment and take the bull by the horn. They are targeting City and nothing else.

Originally Posted by RavenAvi

Is the normal car-buying public interested in 0-100 numbers? And, if only features sold in this segment, Verna would still be the leader..

Well don't change argument. You had stated/implied City has better performance then Ciaz therefore it should be priced lower. I merely pointed out that City having better performance is factually incorrect. In addition I never stated that performance is the only criteria for success in this segment. So don't put words in my mouth and then make a point against something I never said or implied.

Its the overall package that works in this segment for people who want both value, space, features, performance, aftersales and image. Every car would have a different USP. If Verna had more space and didn't handle like a boat, it would have been a hit (still is to an extent). If Fiesta had more space it would have been a runaway success (like EcoSport) is. City ticked most boxes till now. But Ciaz almost equals or betters it in most parameters. So City has a tough job in its hand. I am not stating Ciaz would win, I still have to evaluate it in person, but it makes a pretty good case for itself. The fact is Honda acknowledges it, I know it caz I got a call from Honda dealer as soon as Ciaz launch was announced.

Originally Posted by RavenAvi

The Honda City brand is hard to beat. Even in it's petrol-only avatar, the City consistently sold 3000-odd numbers, and now with the diesel in tow, with spec-numbers far below the Vento, Rapid & Verna, it's the segment bestseller. Even when it's beaten comprehensively in the feature-list by the Verna.

Honda City petrol (old generation) nearly became a sales dud when market went the diesel way and Honda was forced to give discounts and revise its price. I lost a lot of money selling my petrol City in 2012 (this is the height of petrol crisis). The petrol City also in my opinion the most overrated petrol engine, its noisy and not refined. I find 1.2 TSI in Polo to be miles ahead in terms of refinement and low down torque as opposed to the i-vtec.

The Vento/Rapid are aging and have nothing to offer in terms of size or features. The Verna is a size smaller and handles like a boat. The Sunny's should not be considered in this segment. The Fiesta is cramped at rear.

So City has had it easy in this segment. In comes Ciaz which is comparable and bigger when it comes to size, is powerful enough in diesel avatar to keep City behind, has more mileage, has enough gizmos to match or exceed City and has comparable A.S.S if not better in terms of coverage. So what is Honda left with? The badge?

Well I know friends who bought a Brio over Swift because they believe its a Honda. But do you think people are not smart enough to realize that Swift is 5-8 lakhs on road compared to Brio that's 4-6. So they bought Brio caz of its cheaper price.

Originally Posted by RavenAvi

I really hope, for MSIL's sake, that the Ciaz sells well. It is a honest attempt by them to crack the C2-segment, where they have failed before. But let's face it - the fight to the City & the Verna would be tough for them. They will do the right thing by keeping the pricing reasonable, because the Fiesta's pricing has opened the segment wide open. Now even the Amaze and the XCent feel overpriced!

MSIL should know and realise this. If not, the Ciaz will end up going the SX4 route.

Well we can come back and look at the sales figures of Ciaz, City and Verna in November and put this argument to rest. As per you the figures should be comparable to Sunny. As per me its destined to be segment number 2, displacing Verna and taking a lot of buyers away from City.