[ahmad.007]

Originally Posted by sadsack

This whole thread with the posts in it proves one well known aphorism right and that is that everybody loves to beat someone when they are down. I do not like to use very strong language (not due to the fear of moderators, but because I do not like to be offensive to others) but this thread and the posts show the follow the herd mentality of human beings.

One of my biggest problems with automobile forums is that they have gradually degenerated into forums for the display of various peoples' juvenile tendencies. Most posts have no meaning and no sense and one person had to say something about Chinese looking design and there are three or four others falling over each other to say the same thing.

Stupid motor journalists in India who do not even know what the four in a four stroke engine means have for aeons now been pushing awfully pedestrian ideas about design tastes of cultures by commenting adversely on Korean, Chinese and even Japanese aesthetics. And this coming from the people of country that has no identifiable design patterns in any products. The colonial mindset of raising European designs to positions that are lofty and running down other countries' designs into the ground is also an acquired European taste that our country people have lapped up happily and have been for years creating racial slurs.

But to come back to my original point Tata is down and so everybody who is actually a nobody actually feels the necessity to run the company down. People who have never sat in a Nano talk rubbish about the car. People say that Tata will not regain lost ground until it drops the Indica and Indigo names. Gems of wisdom. Having said all this, Tata has been doing too little to make an significant impact with these piecemeal and not to well conceived ideas of facelifts. But I will definitely take into consideration the point that Tata is using these as stop gap measures too keep some numbers moving while it is working on newer products.

Indian companies that have decided to go solo will have to work harder and longer in order to reach acceptable standards of quality and durability and that has to be seen as a given. In this light it appear that Tata "maybe" working on newer models. If they are not then as a company they deserve to go down. But that is no reason for other people to make meaningless remarks all in the name of humour which is so sad that it makes me want to cry.

P.S: I am quite sure that this post will not make it past the moderators but I stand by what I have said and I have not been offensive in what I am saying.

Calm down.
As a matter of fact, I think it is we, the people who buy cars from these manufacturers, and I think we are qualified enough to make out the difference between the good, the bad and the ugly. And this one does seem ugly, not because it is a TATA, but because it is plain ugly. The shape of tail lamps, the extra bulk which seems out of proportions, etc, etc. Coming back to TATA, it is trying real hard to gain momentum, but it just does not seem to fall together.

[Sanjunair5]

Originally Posted by Steeroid

Its an upgrade/refresh, probably meant to make the existing vehicle look slightly more appealing - which shouldn't be difficult considering how shapeless it looked.

The title says "Refresh" - when was the last time a 'Refresh' by any manufacturer included changes to body panels? It usually means headlamps/tail lamps/grille/bumper & stickers. Sometimes fake bonnet scoops, if the manufacturer and its buyers are inclined towards such meaningless bits.

Save brickbats for new models that may look as ugly.

Steeroid, I don't think I said there should be body panel changes. But a factory refresh should be different from sticker job and after market accessories. We can agree to disagree on individual expectations. This 'refresh' is not going to create converts and make followers happier. (please don't pick on this point !)

[sadsack]

Originally Posted by mallumowgli

Not sure what this rant was about - but you have not said whether you liked this refresh or not. Do you?

No Sir, I do not particularly like the refresh and I had implied that in one of the paragraphs.

Originally Posted by Steeroid

You have a very valid point, but its pretty useless trying to push it. You're probably better off trying to piss against the wind.

Thank you Sir, I have realised that what you have said and the quotation below is proof of it.

Originally Posted by AyAn!

I would say that this is ignorant journalist bashing on your part as well... ... These "stop gap" measures deserve to be bashed on forums and by the market as well". Sticker jobs like these are nothing short of some stupid joke, and the Grande's not even a strong seller that they'll get away with it. They shouldn't have even bothered to do something like this in the first place, and concentrated more on implementing some superior engineering improvements to the car.

You are entitled to your opinions and so I will only say to things. Up to you to take it or leave it. You don't study engineering to appreciate aesthetics. In fact, aesthetics are distinctly shaped by cultures so I was not making a connection between the two as suggested by you. The second thing is no manufacturer can force a product onto anyone. My logic is that you don't like the product don't buy it. And if no one buys their products companies have to look into themselves and find the reasons why. One can express an opinion on something, for sure, but that cannot degenerate into company bashing. Its like saying my neighbors have a not so good looking child so we all have the freedom to harp on the child's ugliness. Please remember that what I have used is an analogy and analogies have their limitations and so are not very precise. So please don't go into bashing that analogy. Having said that I respect the fact that you have your own opinions to which you are entitled and even though I do not agree with it, I do not want to start an argument. I do not think a forum is to demonstrate one upmanship. Thank you.

[teamveevee]

Originally Posted by Sanjunair5

Steeroid, I don't think I said there should be body panel changes. But a factory refresh should be different from sticker job and after market accessories.

A recent case study...Honda introduced a totally redesigned Civic in US in 2012. All loyal Honda fans hated it, Consumer Reports magazine blacklisted it. Sales plunged. With in an year Honda introduced a refresh, with lot of changes, which is never heard of, taking into consideration all the criticisms. Rest is history. Y-O-Y sales for the month of August increased by 50%. If done rightly, refreshes can do wonders. Hope Tata will do a similar thing with Aria.
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...ys-almost.html

[mallumowgli]

Originally Posted by sadsack

The second thing is no manufacturer can force a product onto anyone. My logic is that you don't like the product don't buy it. And if no one buys their products companies have to look into themselves and find the reasons why. One can express an opinion on something, for sure, but that cannot degenerate into company bashing. Its like saying my neighbors have a not so good looking child so we all have the freedom to harp on the child's ugliness. Please remember that what I have used is an analogy and analogies have their limitations and so are not very precise. So please don't go into bashing that analogy

That analogy is a bit hitting below the belt isnt it?

When we see any product (or even experience a service) it is possible for us to understand whether any serious effort has gone into the making of the same. Also this being an automobile forum,I think we should have the freedom to bash any manufacturer. And passionately at that!! All because of the love we have for the manufacturer

This attempt by Tata has been seen by many as half baked and I don't think we have to restrain ourselves in voicing our opinion on that specific count. But I do hope that the final refresh in flesh looks better than in the pics

[amit_purohit20]

Although I do support TATA but surely for this half cooked-half baked and half-burnt vehicle. I too would want to bash them!

Common TATA you have really stupid Industrial Design engineers.

Learn from Mahindra. Logan was not to the taste of common people. Some said its upright ugly. But personally I feel they did a great job in uplifting that vehicle.

In my view Verito simply looks great enough for being called a decent looking car!

I am sure in less cost there are many things that can be done to Sumo Grande to make it just acceptable till your new age models are launched.

[MaxTorque]

This facelift is like a money wasting exercise. Looks like Tata is buying some time before launching their new products. IMO Tata should scrap the current generation Grande and bring a completely new model.

[MHG]

I'd like to look at this facelift objectively. Lets list what is present and not present in the current Grande (positives and negatives) - with a disclaimer that my experience in the Grande is limited to random shuttle taxis I used to take on the Outer Ring Road, Bangalore.

+ Space - lots of it - three rows of seats all of which can seat adults comfortably
+ Proven 2.2L Dicor engine from the Safari/Strome/Aria
+ Cheaper than competition (Xylo, Innova and Evalia)

- Tata's trademark niggles (rattles, creeks and the like)
- Boat-like suspension
- No safety features like ABS+EBD, Airbags, etc
- Bulky looks and boring interiors

A refresh should address the negatives while retaining the positives. What are the things that can be immediately resolved ?

-> Ride Quality / Suspension setup
Get some Land Rover engineers to help with this, like was done for the Aria. This should be the primary fix on the refresh since the car sways a lot even on light turns

-> Tata's trademark niggles
Cyrus Mistry's surprise audits at factories, Karl Slym's HorizonNext strategy, etc should help address this issue to some extent across all models.

-> No safety features (ABS, EBD, Airbags)
If the Grande was indeed built on the same platform as the Xenon, whose XT version has these features, I see no reason why these couldn't be added

-> Bulky looks, boring interiors
Offer all-black (or deep purple or dark brown) interiors with imitation leather seat covers on the top-end model. Offer some attractive dark exterior colors to hide the bulky curves a bit. Since no panel changes can be made, the exterior is pretty much stuck looking the way it does, but some minor nips and tucks here and there would do lots of good. Take inspiration from the Xenon Tuff Truck concept which shares the same platform as the Grande.

The scoop only tells us how the Grande Refresh looks on the outside. Perhaps they did not perform sufficient due diligence to address the exterior. But we don't know yet what they have done to the interior, suspension and safety features. Let us hope for Tata's own good that some changes have happened there.

One last point though - with all due respect to the gentleman after whom the Sumo was named, this name is killing the Grande. Tata would do a lot of good to itself by renaming the Sumo Grande as the Xenon Grande and using the Xenon XT, Xenon Crew Cab and Xenon Single Cab Pickup to highlight the connection with its better looking siblings. I remember having mentioned this elsewhere as well, but if Tata management is reading this, the renaming shouldn't cost you any extra money. But it will do lots of good for the business.

[CarCynic]

Not sure if it has been discussed on TBHP before but I think this simple cladding makes a world of difference.

[TheARUN]

Tata should have done to the Grande what Mahindra did to the Xylo, made a Quanto out of it. This is one good looking vehicle which somehow failed to click, the only reason I can think of was price, if this was priced on par with the Sumo then it would have been a huge hit

What Tata needs to do is show confidence in the product, they first introduced it at the Auto Expo as the new Sumo, they should have gone the Toyota way and pulled out the old Sumo and replaced it with this one, but positioning them both like the Hero Spendor and Passion, they have not done justice to both the vehicles

The Grande has very good street presence, what it needs is a bit of width, wonder if that can be done, the first thing that came to my mind when I saw it was 'thin and tall', engineering that should not be too much of a problem, they just have to stretch the panels

[sebastianjoseph]

Originally Posted by CarCynic

Not sure if it has been discussed on TBHP before but I think this simple cladding makes a world of difference.

Is this a photoshop job or is it a grande with actual cladings ? Those safari alloys look super.

[ad3952n]

Dear Team, Going by the pics i find this car with the most sub-standard and the most low-profile facelift ever. It can never impress the buyer. Who in this country can ever term it as a refreshed car when the looks are so dated and stale. Given the "facelift" these exterior features can be achieved buy spending 2000 bucks at any local market. Seriously The Tata guys need a brain-storming session before they venture in the market with this silly looking call centre styled car. On the face of it; nothing surprising and all the more boring. Stands nowhere to the present and future competitors.

AD

[ad3952n]

Originally Posted by sadsack

I do not like to use very strong language (not due to the fear of moderators, but because I do not like to be offensive to others) but this thread and the posts show the follow the herd mentality of human beings.

One of my biggest problems with automobile forums is that they have gradually degenerated into forums for the display of various peoples' juvenile tendencies. Most posts have no meaning and no sense and one person had to say something about Chinese looking design and there are three or four others falling over each other to say the same thing.

Stupid motor journalists in India who do not even know what the four in a four stroke engine means have for aeons now been pushing awfully pedestrian ideas about design tastes of cultures by commenting adversely on Korean, Chinese and even Japanese aesthetics. And this coming from the people of country that has no identifiable design patterns in any products. The colonial mindset of raising European designs to positions that are lofty and running down other countries' designs into the ground is also an acquired European taste that our country people have lapped up happily and have been for years creating racial slurs.

But to come back to my original point Tata is down and so everybody who is actually a nobody actually feels the necessity to run the company down. People who have never sat in a Nano talk rubbish about the car. People say that Tata will not regain lost ground until it drops the Indica and Indigo names. Gems of wisdom. Having said all this, Tata has been doing too little to make an significant impact with these piecemeal and not to well conceived ideas of facelifts. But I will definitely take into consideration the point that Tata is using these as stop gap measures too keep some numbers moving while it is working on newer products.

Indian companies that have decided to go solo will have to work harder and longer in order to reach acceptable standards of quality and durability and that has to be seen as a given. In this light it appear that Tata "maybe" working on newer models. If they are not then as a company they deserve to go down. But that is no reason for other people to make meaningless remarks all in the name of humour which is so sad that it makes me want to cry.

P.S: I am quite sure that this post will not make it past the moderators but I stand by what I have said and I have not been offensive in what I am saying.

Dear Mate, You are as much a member of this close knit forum as we all are; under any circumstance using uncalled-for words and statements (see bold) shall digrace the authenticity of views of member and that of the forum too. I am in no way sub-moderating your views. Being relevant to the topic is appreciated. You have all the rights to provide your ideas pertaining to Sumo's facelift like all of us. This forum is a platform for giving insights of consumer's need and taste of vehicle to the automotive industry. The views of the members expressed here for a vehicle (sumo Grande) is not to be taken in personal capacity at large by any member.

PS: Do comment over the facelift of the car and not on the views as they are bound to be different.

thanks

AD

[Contrapunto]

Originally Posted by sadsack

This whole thread with the posts in it proves one well known aphorism right and that is that everybody loves to beat someone when they are down. I do not like to use very strong language (not due to the fear of moderators, but because I do not like to be offensive to others) but this thread and the posts show the follow the herd mentality of human beings.

I respect your opinion, but beg to disagree in parts. While I do want TML, as an Indian manufacturer, to do very well on the Indian and global stage, as a customer who has owned and driven TML cars over time and (reasonably) long distances, my cup of sympathy, I'm afraid, has run dry.

The feedback in these forums may sound bitter, but its nothing compared to the negative outcome of customers who are voting with their wallets (by buying other brands). TML can still recover, and I'm sure most folks here are raring, nay itching to see a great product from that stable. Aria was probably one, but got killed by pricing and never recovered. But, cosmetic upgrades for products like Sumo which don't sell anyway, and hoping that will make it succeed does not show a self-critical or introspective attitude, I'm afraid. I wish them well, but developments like these make me worried. Very worried.

It would be interesting to see the sales charts of Sumo over the next six months, for sure.

PS- Auto journos and bloggers alike agree that Nano is a great product but really, was the customer asking for a Bluetooth audio, or was he/she asking for power steering? And if the recent cosmetic upgrade fails, its not because the customer does not appreciate the product, just maybe its the other way round......

[sadsack]

Originally Posted by sadsack

I do not like to use very strong language (not due to the fear of moderators, but because I do not like to be offensive to others)

one person had to say something about Chinese looking design and there are three or four others falling over each other to say the same thing.

Having said all this, Tata has been doing too little to make an significant impact with these piecemeal and not to well conceived ideas of facelifts.

Please see the number of posts that came in talking about Chinese design when one post was made. I am not making that up.

You are entitled to your opinions and so I will only say two things. Up to you to take it or leave it. You don't study engineering to appreciate aesthetics. In fact, aesthetics are distinctly shaped by cultures so I was not making a connection between the two as suggested by you. The second thing is no manufacturer can force a product onto anyone.....Having said that I respect the fact that you have your own opinions to which you are entitled and even though I do not agree with it, I do not want to start an argument. I do not think a forum is to demonstrate one upmanship. Thank you.[/quote]

I would just like to make one last comment on this. Forums can bash car makers. But just as we lay down rules and regulations about conduct amongst ourselves I am saying that the same should be used when directing remarks against manufacturers. I would say this not just about Tata but also about any other manufacturer. They may have got a few things or everything wrong but the assumption we make need not be they are not interested in the customer. If they are not they are out of the market.
[quote=ad3952n;3232716]

PS: Do comment over the facelift of the car and not on the views as they are bound to be different.

I had commented on the facelift. Here it is.

Originally Posted by sadsack

No Sir, I do not particularly like the refresh and I had implied that in one of the paragraphs

AD

I hope that I have established that I am not very pleased with the way the facelift has gone. And the Sumo (let me add) is well past its expiry date, as are most Tata products.

Originally Posted by Contrapunto

I respect your opinion, but beg to disagree in parts. While I do want TML, as an Indian manufacturer, to do very well on the Indian and global stage, as a customer who has owned and driven TML cars over time and (reasonably) long distances, my cup of sympathy, I'm afraid, has run dry.


And if the recent cosmetic upgrade fails, its not because the customer does not appreciate the product, just maybe its the other way round......

Let me respond to some of the criticisms that have been levelled against my post. First of all if there is somebody who thinks I am a Tata sympathiser, I am not. I am a teacher by profession and do not have favourites in the automobile industry. I have owned and continue to own Tata vehicles and sometimes there have enough reason for grief, but by and large my experience is not something that tells me that the company is absolutely no good. I agree with you fully that it is not for the customer to read the company and that the company needs to read the customer's mind. If they can't then too bad for the company since the customer is spoiled for choice these days.

And to those of you who feel that I have been too critical about the nature of posts, please read the first quotation on top of this. And reiterate by saying that it is not my intention for proving one upmanship or to show that I am better, it is only to say that perhaps if we post in such a manner a healthy discussion can ensue it would be much more useful for everybody to join the discussion. Supercilious remarks as posts will make it impossible to have any meaningful discussion and will at best make people ignore the posts or at worst start a war of words, both of which I think are undesirable. My sincere apologies to anyone who thought I was being disruptive, that certainly was not my intention. Thank you.