[mohitk1993]

Originally Posted by pgsagar

I think Tata should exit automotive sector completely. Because even if they take their cars to Honda level, we Indians will see niggles in them the moment we see a Tata badge.

That is akin to saying that if a student does not get 90% and above, he should simply give up and commit suicide. So what if their sales have gone down?? Everyone in their lives have to undergo ups and downs. Does that mean we just call it a day and quit?? Life is a challenge and TATA must take this troubled time as one.

With due respect to everyone's feelings on this forum, making suggestions such as the one above must not be practiced. TATA is an Indian company and as Indians, it is our duty to support it through thick and thin. Being critical of someone is fine upto a point; however, asking it to give up is utterly blasphemous, IMO. TATA Motors as a whole offers employment to a significant number of Indians, one must be considerate towards those people while making such rash comments.

Originally Posted by pgsagar

And yes, after their exit from automotive sector, I think we will train our guns on Mahindra.

I do not think we would, as you call it, train our guns on Mahindra. TATA has earned the wrath of BHPians just because it made cars that lacked quality. As long as Mahindra continues to make cars that work as intended, I do not think it will ever find its place on such threads.

Originally Posted by pgsagar

But we will keep quiet about 1 crore German cars breaking down and giving all kinds of troubles. I think they are allowed to.

Sir, you sadly seem to be mistaken. We as ordinary Indians citizens have only come to know about their problematic nature just because everyday users of the so-called 1 crore Germans are vocal about their cars. As an example, we have a dedicated thread highlighting the number of sightings of German cars on flatbeds. GTO, a pioneering member of the forum, recounted a harrowing experience with his C180 and how its replacement, a C220 CDI continued to be somewhat unreliable. We have had entire threads on Skoda horror stories (its German, anyway) and when Skoda tried to instigate us against Harish, the entire forum teamed up against it. What else do you need? Regarding the sales figures, Volkswagen is already facing the heat. Skoda? Once counted among the most prestigious brands, it now comes last but 2nd. Regarding the Big 3, the only reason why people continue to flock to their showrooms is because they are quite aspirational brands and in their own right and have no competition as of now. The true picture will only be seen when Lexus arrives.

Coming back to TATA, I feel now that it has tasted its own medicine, with the passage of time, the company will rise to be a really strong contender and would really be something the competition would watch out for.

Just my 2 cents.

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by pgsagar

I think Tata should exit automotive sector completely. Because even if they take their cars to Honda level, we Indians will see niggles in them the moment we see a Tata badge. And yes, after their exit from automotive sector, I think we will train our guns on Mahindra. But we will keep quiet about 1 crore German cars breaking down and giving all kinds of troubles. I think they are allowed to.

While I do see the point you are making, any manufacturer making Cars which has niggles, all across would be discussed and criticized.

No one is saying that they are not improving. But at a pace, in which they would be left behind. Few say, everything is improving, but the net result is for everyone to see.

On Team BHP at least, everyone is seen with equal eye & they get bouquets or brick-bats where they deserve. Isn't Maruti criticized? Honda is praised for their engine & well, that is it.

And Germans? I am sure you have not missed this thread.

No one has the time and inclination to spend time furiously keying negative about a manufacturer/model if they haven't experienced something bad about the product.

No manufacturer/Car model is perfect, far from it. But in some you just have to change consumables & get away with it & with others, you pull your hair out as even the technicians can't figure out as to what went wrong.

Have a go at this thread as well. Do you see any manufacturer in India having so many complaints as far as QC goes? Frankly, I haven't come across any.

And most aren't bashing, almost all are suggesting ways for Tata to improve and bet few make sense.

EDIT - mohitk, saw your post now. psagar is taking a dig at the members who are being vocal against Tata and suggesting ways to improve when he asks Tata to quit. Two ways to look at the half filled glass.

[srh]

Have a Tata for 7 years now. Driven it for 60k+ on the worst roads - have been abusing it for some time now since I no longer care about a car that old . And it hasn't ever let me down ever

[anky]

Have a tata indigo dicor from 2007 and various marutis 800(1996-2004) alto (2004-2013) and now Honda amaze . Tata by far gave me the most problems . It still does . Service is pathetic . I live in Mumbai .

[sinharishi]

Originally Posted by a4anurag

The whole country has given them multile chances to learn and build their name but, no use. Same niggles and problems in the portfolio.

Anurag,

I find you a bit harsh. Sorry, but could not resist to reply.

Lets just assume , in next few years TATA is back in the top 3 car manufacturers in India. And lets just assume they become as reliable as Maruti?

Lets just assume. You cant rule it out, right?

Will you still look at TATA the same way?

Hope you know how much time TOYOTA took to be called as one the most Reliable car manufacturers in the world.

Tata's first indigenous passenger vehicle came in 1998 (Indica) Not too long ago! I do not own a TATA, and I do not deny that most of their products are plagued with niggles and all those problems as listed by their customers.

But at the same time I will never criticize their products without experiencing the problems first hand.

All I know is TATA still sells,right? be it a few thousands.

The decade old Safari is still desired by few people out there. Storme, it was launched too late but again it sells,right?

Same with Skoda, its A.S.S . You must be knowing very well about their scary after sales but skoda still sells,right? So does the XUV. Its just because there are a few customers who love the TATAs, SKodas, XUVs.

Like for any OTHER car manufacturer every product has some good reviews as well as some bad reviews. Lets agree with you, most of the TATA cars are not worthy enough to buy. But you just cannot deny that their are those few who are doing well. Like I said before a coin has 2 sides.

It was just few days before when TATA decided to get strict with QC. Don't they deserve some patience and time? Ok, most may say they have been given time but 10 years is not that long for a verdict? Again, it take years and years and god knows how much time to earn that dignity. Toyota's first car was launched in 1936 and TATA's in 1991 (Sierra).

Its unfair to compare a Tata with a Toyota, right? At this time yes,it is. But who knows what time will tell? Am I too optimistic about TATA? NO, I am just saying all this because TATA , last year same time was at no 3 position. Which means they had something in their vehicles for them to reach the number 3 spot? Ahead of Toyota.

Originally Posted by a4anurag

Tata Indica to Aria all suffer will problems and no rectification for the next production vehicles.

Correct me if I miss-understood you.

Have you owned or experienced all the TATA vehicles or is this claim based on friends/family/forum members experience?
How do you suggest that all TATA cars will suffer with problems and their wont be any rectification for the same?

Nothing against you Anurag. Its just your perception towards TATA.

[a4anurag]

Being an Indian it hurts when all flame Indian companies and not encourage them to develop and prosper. But there is a limit to how much a string can be let loose.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted by sinharishi

Lets just assume , in next few years TATA is back in the top 3 car manufacturers in India. And lets just assume they become as reliable as Maruti?

Lets just assume. You cant rule it out, right?

Will you still look at TATA the same way?

If things get better then I will take my words back but where do I see the improvement. If it shows then well and good. Umpteen time is given to Tata for improvement, no doubt about it. But what about the Aria?

Where does it sell and thanks to their Premium pricing such a lovely car from Tata is sleeping in the shop floor. It took the nation by shock when the Aria was launched but where are the number?

M&M to compete launched the XUV 5OO, check the sales figures of both, you'll get the point I make AND if I am not wrong M&M are going to launch a IMPROVED XUV 5OO. This improved version is based on customer complaints and niggles their R&D department is finding. Kudos to M&M. But where is this attitude from Tata?

Why go till Toyota for a comparison with Tata, M&M is enough for Tata.

Originally Posted by sinharishi

Have you owned or experienced all the TATA vehicles or is this claim based on friends/family/forum members experience?

I have never owned any but have a lot of friends, relatives, colleagues who own all kinds of Tata's and who keep scolding and curse themselves for buying the car.

If he car is considered alone then it is a good effort but their A.S.S, kills the whole feeling of ownership.

Originally Posted by sinharishi

How do you suggest that all TATA cars will suffer with problems and their wont be any rectification for the same?

Please read a few posts above by different members who posted that many visits to the ASC no strong and final corrective action is being given to the customers. The problem is not being solved and a customer has to visit the ASC multiple times which is not correct.

Anurag.

[sinharishi]

Originally Posted by a4anurag

M&M to compete launched the XUV 5OO, check the sales figures of both, you'll get the point I make AND if I am not wrong M&M are going to launch a IMPROVED XUV 5OO. This improved version is based on customer complaints and niggles their R&D department is finding. Kudos to M&M. But where is this attitude from Tata?

Why go till Toyota for a comparison with Tata, M&M is enough for Tata.

The reason I compared TATA with Toyota is because of the Aug 2011-Aug 2012 figures when TATA was ahead of M&M and Toyota.

Time will tell how improved is the new XUV . I, like few out there, hope for the best.

Originally Posted by a4anurag

Please read a few posts above by different members who posted that many visits to the ASC no strong and final corrective action is being given to the customers.
Anurag.

And what about those who have returned satisfied?

[rockporiom]

Just to prove my point.

My family owned a maruti 1000 from 1995 to 2011 and in this period of time it hadn't broken down or left us stranded even once. The only expense that were incurred was from an accident where the rickshaw guy ran away with the bumper of our car and regular maintenance and 3 engine overhauls. The suspension was changed thrice and the whole car was painted once. The car covered 6.75 lakh kms in total and had travelled almost the whole of india from north to south to east to west. These all expenses were regular and came as the car aged.

In comparison the 3 tata cars together didn't age well and had more number of issues and breakdowns than the 1000 even when it had covered more kms than all 3 cars combined. I think this definately says something.

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by rockporiom

Just to prove my point.

So didn't you go behind the auto guy to get your bumper back?

Originally Posted by sinharishi

The reason I compared TATA with Toyota is because of the Aug 2011-Aug 2012 figures when TATA was ahead of M&M and Toyota.

You'll have many such instances about Tata bashing on this thread and it will not end here.

So my point is how much more time does Tata need to be a reliable manufacturer that the public can buy the way we buy a Maruti, Honda, Toyota or a Ford?!

The market is very harsh and I hope you are going through the sales charts M-O-M. That speaks a lot about a manufacturer and how they are in real world M-O-M.

I don't blame or point out only the Tata's but the German trio (Audi, BMW & Mercedes) are no far behind in customer satisfaction, etc.

I don't want to make this thread a place for an argument but for a healthy discussion.

Anurag.

[rockporiom]

Originally Posted by a4anurag

So didn't you go behind the auto guy to get your bumper back?

Anurag.

Our aged driver was at the wheel when this happened. By the time the poor guy realised what had happened he was staring at an autoguy running away with the bumper and leaving the car with a broken headlight, dented left front side, dented bonnet. Total damage on wallet 10k

[mohitk1993]

Originally Posted by a4anurag

So my point is how much more time does Tata need to be a reliable manufacturer that the public can buy the way we buy a Maruti, Honda, Toyota or a Ford?

Improving the quality of its cars (currently TATA's biggest challenge) is not as simple as tightening a loose nut. If you look closely, all the current biggies in the car manufacturing business have undergone years of perseverance in achieving the reputation they currently enjoy. No one is expecting TATA to come up with miracles tomorrow; however, the true reason why this thread was even started is this: things improve at TATA at a VERY SLOW rate!

If we talk simply in terms of overall improvements in quality, a company should ideally go through the following stages:

1. Accepting the fact that it makes low-quality cars.
2. Taking measures to improve quality (tighter QC, improved vendor-base, etc.)
3. Developing improved cars.
4. Testing beta versions for any flaws.
5. Identifying any new flaws and correcting them.
6. Mass-produce the final versions.

TATA is currently in stage 2. Going by its shaky track record, one cannot come with a definite time-frame as to when shall the company roll out the improved cars. Only time will tell.

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by sinharishi

Time will tell how improved is the new XUV . I, like few out there, hope for the best.

Originally Posted by mohitk1993

No one is expecting TATA to come up with miracles tomorrow; however, the true reason why this thread was even started is this: things improve at TATA at a VERY SLOW rate!

Not to spruce an argument again but I have put a few charts and compiled M-O-M analysis of the Sales figures that are posted by GTO & Parrys. I am also going to quote the analysis by GTO for every month for Tata.

I chose the four giants in our market, i.e.,

1) Maruti
2) Tata
3) Mahindra
4) Hyundai

Maruti's Market Share:



Tata's Market Share:



Hyundai's Market Share:



Mahindra's Market Share:



Here I am happy for Tata & Mahindra as their market share is being in same range M-O-M and not fluctuating as the rest two. Consistency is a good sign but the graph is flat rather than pointing upwards. Maruti saw a slump because of the strikes etc. (If I'm not wrong).

Here is what GTO has to say:

January

Breaking the trend set by the top 3 is Tata Motors. Y-O-Y sales are less than 50% of the Jan 2012 levels, while the M-O-M climb is slimmer than the others too. A dismal 15,000 shipments makes Jan the second-worst month in a year for Tata (after the equally poor December 2012). This is the net result of poor reliability & quality levels and an ageing product line (for the most part). The Indica + Vista and Safari + Storme are the only products to have earned their lunch. Everything else – from the Nano to the Aria – has under-performed. It’s shocking to see the Indigo + Manza at a low 2,367 units. If it weren’t for its commercial vehicle division & Jaguar-Land Rover, Tata would have been in the red. The passenger car division remains Tata’s weakest (albeit most visible).

February

Tata moves a dismally low 10,000 cars last month. Every Tata car is under pressure, right from the cheap Nano to the premium Aria. Tough times ahead for Tata management indeed. They are going to be burning the midnight oil to overhaul the image, quality & pace of development of its passenger car division. Tata once enjoyed the USPs of space & diesel economy; in the last 3 years, every major global brand has launched products in the 4 – 7 lakh price band.

March

No such celebrations in Pune though, as Tata Motors loses 2/3rd of the sales volume from last year. These are incredibly trying times for Tata. It’s depressing to see a competent vehicle like the Aria move a mere 13 copies, and the brilliant Nano only 1,500. The Indica & Vista do bring some sunshine while the Sumo remains a consistent performer. The Storme doesn’t appear to have made any difference to the Safari range.

May

Tata continues to move backward. Once a strong no.3 in the market (sometimes, no.2!), it hurts to see the Big T in position 5. Super-aggressive Toyota is only a 1,000 cars behind and it won't be long before Tata moves down to 6th. Trouble is, there is no solution in sight. Hot new products, quality improvements & a marketing overhaul are a long time away.

August

Tata loses 50% of its sales volume year-on-year and the once regular no. 3 is now at 5th position in the Indian car scene. It's only the Indica / Vista & the Indigo / Manza sisters that give the dealers some work to do. The Nano's breakeven point is 20,000 units / month. It's currently at 10% that, and most definitely a loss maker. The Nano might be the cheapest car in the world, yet it's turned out too expensive for its manufacturer. Unlikely that the Aria will ever recover from the optimistic price & positioning blunder, not even massive discounts move the premium UV. Customers turn their back on the ageing Safari & Storme as well. What really keeps Tata Motors running isn't the passenger car division, it's Jaguar Land Rover & Commercial vehicles.

Note: April, June and July: GTO wasn't available for the comments so it has been taken in consideration.

Buddy, Can you see the things highlighted in BOLD? I mean every month the whole scenario is negativity for Tata (Not that others are any better). I know that Tata is in Stage 2 but till it reaches stage 5 or 6 will you think customers would have that faith as they had when it was the leader? It is also going the Fiat's way is what I feel. The management has enough time and resources but why is no one kick-starting the whole movement.

Sales of all vehicles in the Tata's portfolio:



Just look at the sales of it's vehicles M-O-M. I can see the graph either flat or dipping. We guys sitting here are talking so much about Tata and feeling bad about its state which is declining M-O-M, what are the higher-ups doing?!

I know it is easy to talk and type some words here but I guess someone from Tata is watching these threads day-in and day out so it would reach their top management some day!

P.S.: Thanks once again to GTO and Parrys for the wonderful analysis they provide us every month. The charts, comments have been taken from there. If any mistake has been done or I have hurt anyone's sentiment in my post please forgive me and MODS are free to delete my posts.

Thank you.

Cheers,
Anurag.

[sinharishi]

Originally Posted by mohitk1993

TATA is currently in stage 2. Going by its shaky track record, one cannot come with a definite time-frame as to when shall the company roll out the improved cars. Only time will tell.

Exactly my point. Only time will tell. But one cannot deny that there wont be any improved cars from TATA.

Originally Posted by a4anurag

Just look at the sales of it's vehicles M-O-M. I can see the graph either flat or dipping.

Anurag,

I never deny that they are sales chart are going down. Till April 2012,TATA was doing good, its down fall begin from Mid 2012.

And I never said that they are doing well in 2013 I took stand after going through the sales chart (Aug 2011-Aug 2012).

I appreciate you putting in effort tough

All I want to say is , I will never deny that TATA wont rise again and will never accept that all the cars from their stable are problematic. After all They were once a regular no 3

We need to give them some more time. Lets just be patient. And hope for the best.

[Sheel]

Originally Posted by sinharishi

Will you still look at TATA the same way?

That is precisely what we are discussing here. If things improve, we won't be.

BTW, for the record, I find driving a Tata Car to be better than few Jap/Korean Cars. At least the steering on Tata Cars isn't dead.

Hope you know how much time TOYOTA took to be called as one the most Reliable car manufacturers in the world.

Tata's first indigenous passenger vehicle came in 1998 (Indica) Not too long ago! I do not own a TATA, and I do not deny that most of their products are plagued with niggles and all those problems as listed by their customers.

But at the same time I will never criticize their products without experiencing the problems first hand.

Toyota took a lot of time, right. But it was decades back, when technology was stagnant & they had no partners and they were on their own. No back-up. Agree, this JLR Association has just started, but still...

It was just few days before when TATA decided to get strict with QC. Don't they deserve some patience and time? Ok, most may say they have been given time but 10 years is not that long for a verdict? Again, it take years and years and god knows how much time to earn that dignity. Toyota's first car was launched in 1936 and TATA's in 1991 (Sierra).

Public vote with their pockets. Would you buy a problematic Car for 10L or a reliable Car for 11?

Which means they had something in their vehicles for them to reach the number 3 spot? Ahead of Toyota.

For the past 2 months, Toyota has marched ahead. Please do note that, Toyota doesn't have as strong presence in the market as Tata has (the no. of dealerships & service outlets that is)

Have you owned or experienced all the TATA vehicles or is this claim based on friends/family/forum members experience?
How do you suggest that all TATA cars will suffer with problems and their wont be any rectification for the same?

There are replies which say they didn't face a problem & right under that post, a reply states, one is fed up. You don't get so varied response for others.

Originally Posted by a4anurag

Being an Indian it hurts when all flame Indian companies and not encourage them to develop and prosper. But there is a limit to how much a string can be let loose.

+1

Why go till Toyota for a comparison with Tata, M&M is enough for Tata.

That is precisely what I am trying to say.

Indigenous products, if good will sell. Had Premier Rio been half as good as the EcoSport, it would have sold enough to make them laughing all the way to the bank.

If he car is considered alone then it is a good effort but their A.S.S, kills the whole feeling of ownership.

I again echo the same sentiment. The service experience ruins it. Few disagree, but quite a lot of guys agree. Been hearing, service is good in parts in Maharashtra, but Tata just doesn't sell Cars in Maharashtra alone, right?

Originally Posted by sinharishi

Exactly my point. Only time will tell. But one cannot deny that there wont be any improved cars from TATA.

We need to give them some more time. Lets just be patient. And hope for the best.

I and believe Anurag as well don't see that effort from Tata. Maybe they are taking too small steps in the right direction.

[sajanjohn]

One trend in our forum is month after month is frustrated nephews and neighbors starting a Tata Motors thread with a horror story while last 3 years most of the TATA ownership threads tells a slightly different story.

Most of the owners are happy including yours truly. Yes, I had one or two instances/troubles at times with my Manza. Yes, service center folks are not polished. However, service engineer now is more eager to solve my problems and service centers are not charging me a bomb. Owned a Santro in the past and experienced the kind of looting that happens at Bangalore Hyundai Service centers. I bought this VFM car on road for 7.35 Lakhs. At that price point, I can't find another car that gives me such large boot and leg rooms. Not to mention the small but useful gadgets. At 50000 KM and 3.5 Years of ownership I must say the car just met my needs and its easy on my pocket to maintain.

In my humble opinion TATA makes great cars and if you care to maintain the car on time and be patient with their well known in efficiencies at service centers as others claim, Your car does work like any other brand's car. Remember, after all most probably you went with TATA because of its VFM aspect unless its a Storme or ARIA.

Every brand has its own issues,Yes, TATA needs to step up, Yes we all deserve well functioning stable cars from TATA and No, we won't pay more money for a TATA car and Yes, We all love TATA cars. Do we really need a new thread every month to bash them?

Sincerely,
TATA Motors Customer (That Rare Happy One)