[Zappo]

Originally Posted by VeyronSuperSprt

Read my post carefully again.

Can you start putting some words to support what you are saying?

One of the moderators initially suggested that 9 sets may actually be because the service station changed the pads one by one as R&D. If so then those 9 changes may equate to 2 set of changes for all the brake pads in the last 1.5 years .

You immediately latched on to that equation worked out by our fellow moderator and claimed that hence the owner of the vehicle has tried to twist facts.

Now... in continuation to my previous post, my earlier question comes back. What is the twisting of facts that you see here? At the end of the day, if the service station does these changes over 9 iterations then for you as a customer it is 9 changes. Customer will not talk in sets. What stopped the RR ASS to change the entire set in one go which then would have required the customer only 2 visits in the last 1.5 years?

And please do not bother to post another 1 liner with zero material fact to support that claim of twisting of facts.

[Honda Monk]

No wonder the Range Rover is in all ours TATA umbrella.
Costumer service and satisfaction are two words this company never learn or cared least.
Rather than learning and improving their indigenous product they are bring down the world renowned brand to their level. HAH! Kudos TATA.

[pgsagar]

But nothing is going to change. People will continue to buy premium German and British cars. Internet is replete with failure stories of German trio. Did it make any dent? German / British cars are seen as the aspirational cars. The sign of having arrived.

Ye, ye we all know Jap cars are more reliable. But they are damn boring and bland too. I have driven Camry, Corolla, CRV, Accord, Civic, City but none of them excite. Accord? It was V6 I drove. 3000cc and 200 plus BHP but I was wondering where are all the horses hiding. Totally plain. Heck, European engined Swift is much more fun to drive.

And I showed this thread to a relative who is bent on buying a Range Rover Evoque. He didn't give a hoot about this story. He said, 1.May be the driver wrecked it. 2. May be he got a lemon ( all cars have ). 3. May be Salman..... never mind.

I see rural rich builder/politico types buying European cars in droves even in small sleepy towns. Please do not think they are ignorant and do not surf the net. You will be surprised by the amount of research they do even as they lack English language skills. And some of such guys I spoke to dismissed this story. Last year, a friend wanted advice on VW cars. I showed him threads about VW and other German car issues. He read everything queitly and next week turned up at my house with brand new Vento. I do not think such stories make much impact.

[samyakmodi]

i think we are all missing a few points here.

and looks like we do have a lot of SRK fans here - who are unable to understand Salman as an owner of an expensive car's plight, and just want to discredit him!!

now only because he has had a mishap earlier, you want to sling mud on him when there is absolutely no fault of his even now. (infamous land-cruiser episode)

if he can not speak in english properly - you want to make fun of him and want to discredit his story. I am some how not sure how does speaking some language of people who enslaved and ill treated an entire nation still be considered as "IN" or "Happening" - please do explain. and only because you can talk in proper english makes your story more reliable than someone's plight?

coming to the point of the brake pads being changed 9 times in one and half years - I am sure he has a right to cry about. He has clearly stated that 9 times the brake pads have "FAILED". that simply means 9 times the vehicle has gone to the service centre to address one single problem. Bad/insufficient braking.
now let's try and put things in perspective. Let's say that your entire family is traveling in a super expensive car, and the brakes simply fail. The car meets with a major crash and few of the family members are seriously injured.
Now going by your logic - the brake pads have failed just once - resulting in the accident - shouldn't be a big deal, right?!?
this guy's car's brake pads have failed 9 times!! and this is just in 1.5 years. and I have a feeling that he might have sent his cars atleast a few times for the regular service. now if in the regular service, cars this high tech are not thoroughly checked, i wonder what do they charge for.
And let's keep it simple, he has complained about the car breaking down in the middle of the road because of any problem (leave aside repetitive like brake pads). If a NANO does it - everyone shouts foul. IF a car costing more than 200 times does that - multiple times - the owner has no right to raise his complaints. Why?!??!

and all the guys who think that salman has no credibility - i will put it very simply (maybe bluntly) for you.
what car do you drive?
the guy has earned enough money to purchase such an expensive car - and he has every right to cry foul if he feels cheated. i am sure most of us here are not in a position to judge him - as an actor maybe, but as a person/owner of the car - definitely not.


Moderators : This topic is going way out of hands as of now. might as well put a stop to it before it gets out of hands

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by samyakmodi

One of the moderators initially suggested that 9 sets may actually be because the service station changed the pads one by one as R&D. If so then those 9 changes may equate to 2 set of changes for all the brake pads in the last 1.5 years .

Maybe this information was in the tweets, but I haven't seen any factual information on this brake faults. I see different "stories". What did this guy experience. Brakes not working, brake pad wear light indication on the dash, brake problem light on the dash.

It seems to me, we are letting our fantasy run wild without having any facts!

Originally Posted by pgsagar

But nothing is going to change. People will continue to buy premium German and British cars. Internet is replete with failure stories of German trio. Did it make any dent? German / British cars are seen as the aspirational cars. The sign of having arrived.

Ye, ye we all know Jap cars are more reliable. But they are damn boring and bland too.

Yes, I agree, Jap cars are boring beyond belief and German cars are not. I don't particularly like most German cars but that is beside the point. I haven't seen any statistical factual information that even suggest that German cars are worse than Japanes. Just because the internet is full of stories of one kind of the other, doesn't make it true. What you believe is of course a different matter all toughener. For instance, I can provide about 134.987 links to site that claim that the moon landing was NASA hoax. I can provide another 459.876.987 links that will claim there is real evidence of the Loch Ness monster.

People wisen up. Even this very forum is mostly populated by individuals that are anonymous. So you want to believe the anonymous experts????

Originally Posted by samyakmodi

i think we are all missing a few points here.

and looks like we do have a lot of SRK fans here - who are unable to understand Salman as an owner of an expensive car's plight, and just want to discredit him!!

Not sure who you are addressing. I think you need to clarify and adres specifically. I don't know this chap at all and I've said my piece on what could be worse.

Still, anybody believing anything because he or she is a celebrity is beyond my comprehension. I'd be the first one to admit that's how it works but I just don't understand.

Let's take another case. i really enjoy most of Clint Eastwood movies. From his very early appearance in Cowboy Television series to some of this latest work. But just because he is a gifted actor and director doesn't make him an authority on anything else. Did you see him supporting the Republican cause, I would call it sad, but it really is pathetic. Just because you're famous doesnt mean you're an authority on every topic under the sun. In my opinion, movie stars should be banned from speaking in public on anything but movies. Football players (and their wives) should be banned from public period!

Originally Posted by samyakmodi

if he can not speak in english properly - you want to make fun of him and want to discredit his story.

I agree with you whole heartedly. If someone doesn't speak English properly it means....... he or she doesn't speak English properly, nothing else.

Originally Posted by samyakmodi

I am some how not sure how does speaking some language of people who enslaved and ill treated an entire nation still be considered as "IN" or "Happening" - please do explain. and only because you can talk in proper english makes your story more reliable than someone's plight?

Although I do agree you on your first point, on this one it does get a bit more pointy. I would still agree on your first point. However, ranting and raving about English being the language of "esnlavement and ill treatment" just doesn't cut it. I've lived and worked in multiple country, I've worked with and in all sort s of organsiation and English happens to be the most common language around the globe. That's just a fact, even though more people speak Chineses (or some dialect) if you want to survive internationally you had better speak English.

So, although I will defend your position that a lack of English doesn't mean anything other than the individual doesn't speak English, I will also put it to you that those of us wanting to make an impact Internationally do need to speak English.

Originally Posted by samyakmodi

coming to the point of the brake pads being changed 9 times in one and half years - I am sure he has a right to cry about. He has clearly stated that 9 times the brake pads have "FAILED". that simply means 9 times the vehicle has gone to the service centre to address one single problem. Bad/insufficient braking.

That's an interesting point. Again, I havent seen the tweets (I'm not sure what a tweet is, I certainly have never seen one). It sounds like your interpretation, correct me if I'm wrong??? Do we know what happened? If my brakes on a new car would fail only once, I would drive it right through the car dealers shop window and punch the manager in the nose and wouldn't leave untill I get my money back. Are we sure the brakes failed nine times???? Because that is truly unheard off, on any car! Did he get a brake pad wear alarm or another alarm???

I really haven't seen any facts. Only interpretations and people taking position of what they believe have happened. For a car forum, not what I was expecting.

Originally Posted by samyakmodi

And let's keep it simple, he has complained about the car breaking down in the middle of the road because of any problem (leave aside repetitive like brake pads). If a NANO does it - everyone shouts foul. IF a car costing more than 200 times does that - multiple times - the owner has no right to raise his complaints. Why?!??!

Anybody with multiple failtures has the right to raise complaint, if not to punch the MD in the nose!!!!

Originally Posted by samyakmodi

and all the guys who think that salman has no credibility - i will put it very simply (maybe bluntly) for you.
what car do you drive?

I dont know the guy, so for me he has zero credibility and I drive, amongst others, a Jaguar XJR

Originally Posted by samyakmodi

the guy has earned enough money to purchase such an expensive car - and he has every right to cry foul if he feels cheated. i am sure most of us here are not in a position to judge him - as an actor maybe, but as a person/owner of the car - definitely not.

I would hope that having a lot of money or maybe not so much money would still allow every soul on the planet to cry foul when cheated. You shouln't have to be wealth and a celebrity I hope.

I'm not in a position to judge, I simply don't know him and I don't have a clue about his knowledge or expertise in cars, I've been told he owns quite a few. Which makes him rich. I'd be the first to admit that he has every right to express any opinion or any gripe he has with any brand, car what so ever. I will still ignore him, for no other reason I don't know him and I have no idea about his real insights into cars. Maybe he is a real petrol head, I just don't know.

Originally Posted by samyakmodi

Moderators : This topic is going way out of hands as of now. might as well put a stop to it before it gets out of hands

I disagree, this topic is not going out of hand at all. As long as everybody stays courteous it is a very interesting and enlightening discussion. Why should we believe this guy, why do people believe this guy, what happened to his car, what should the dealer have done.

Very relevant questions to ponder and to discuss

jeroen

[samyakmodi]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Maybe this information was in the tweets, but I haven't seen any factual information on this brake faults. I see different "stories". What did this guy experience.
.
.
.
As long as everybody stays courteous it is a very interesting and enlightening discussion. Why should we believe this guy, why do people believe this guy, what happened to his car, what should the dealer have done. Very relevant questions to ponder and to discuss jeroen

All points very well addressed to buddy.

As far as why should we believe him is concerned - then why should we believe in any of the sob stories here regarding a dealer cheating someone or anyone been given a lemon of a car??

[RSR]

Originally Posted by pgsagar

But nothing is going to change. People will continue to buy premium German and British cars. Internet is replete with failure stories of German trio. Did it make any dent? German / British cars are seen as the aspirational cars. The sign of having arrived.

There is absolutely nothing wrong in buying premium (or mainstream, for that matter) German or British cars, as long as the buyer is completely aware of the full extent of their unreliability/quality issues/cost of maintenance/other pitfalls (if any) and is willing to bear them. Everyone is welcome to make their own choices based on their own needs/preferences.

Originally Posted by pgsagar

And I showed this thread to a relative who is bent on buying a Range Rover Evoque. He didn't give a hoot about this story. He said, 1.May be the driver wrecked it. 2. May be he got a lemon ( all cars have ). 3. May be Salman..... never mind.

I see rural rich builder/politico types buying European cars in droves even in small sleepy towns. Please do not think they are ignorant and do not surf the net. You will be surprised by the amount of research they do even as they lack English language skills. And some of such guys I spoke to dismissed this story. Last year, a friend wanted advice on VW cars. I showed him threads about VW and other German car issues. He read everything queitly and next week turned up at my house with brand new Vento. I do not think such stories make much impact.

Make an impact? They sure do! As sure as the Earth rotates on its axis. Maybe, the they didn't have an impact on the specific person(s)/types you mentioned. But for others, these stories surely come as a Godsend!

For those who learn by reading & observing the experiences of others, the impact is tremendous and immediate. For those who learn only from their own experiences, it may be delayed and minor. For those who never learn, it doesn't matter, as even a gigantic asteroid isn't going to make any impact on them.

I've had someone ask me whether the Polo was a good car for him. I replied that it may be a good car to drive, but may not be a good car to own. He was baffled and asked what I meant by that. I merely asked him to read the experiences posted by Polo (VW, in general) owners on reliable sites like this one. At no point did I even suggest that the Polo was bad or that he should avoid buying one. The gentleman did as advised, and also went further by asking a couple of colleagues who happened to own VWs. It turns out that he did not care to even go near a VW showroom during the process of making his (well informed) purchase.

So, such unreliability and horror stories do have a much needed impact, in my opinion.

I would say it depends, and varies from person to person. If one happens to have have about half-a-dozen cars in his/her garage, and a couple of chauffeurs in one's service to take the car to the place where it loves to spend much time (the workshop), it may not have much of an impact.

On the other hand, if it's going to their only car, or one that's going to be used by a loved one (spouse/partner/child/parent/sibling), or if the use of the car forms an important and/or inseparable part of the person's livelihood, the impact is unbelievably immense! Such persons generally tend to avoid such unreliable/poor quality cars like the plague, as they should!

[pgsagar]

Well said Jeroen! I see lot of charged posts here. Evereone seems to be baying for JLR's blood without verifying the facts. There is always two sides to a story. Shouldn't teambhpians have waited till facts emerged before spraying bullets. I am not saying Salman lied or JLR is angel but it's like we acted like judge, jury and executioner and delivered a "guilty as charged" verdict on JLR. I expected some mature reactions from teambhpians.

As for Samyakmodi, he says, "the guy has earned enough money to purchase such an expensive car - and he has every right to cry foul if he feels cheated......" Ok, does it mean a poor soul who buys a basic car like Eon from loan or all his savings has no right to cry if his car breaks down. I say this guy has more right to cry than Salman for whom a Range Rover cost is pocket change. Why this crazy pitching for a rich actor? Are you so enamoured by these rich actors? No, I do not hate them or something. Just that I do not jump to their rescue without ascertaining facts. Although, I do like some actors ( Salman and SRK are definitely not in my list ) but yet I do not go gaga over them or tear my hair out if something happens to them. In other words I treat them as entertainers and I do not care a rat's posterior about their lives. I am too busy with my own.

As for his rant about English language, he should know that English is no longer the language of British alone. It now belongs to the whole world and the whole world transacts business in Englsih. More than Brits, it is the language or Americans now and it is the Americans who exercise more influence on this language than British. And Indians are not far behind. We Indians have used this language to the fullest to further our education overseas and rule the world of IT for last few decades. So why this rant against English?

Salman's English? Forget English, this guy doesn't even speak Hindi properly, without halting and without stammering. Is that ok, too? For heaven's sake do not say yes. I wonder what language he speaks fluently.

[BlackPearl]

Originally Posted by Honda Monk

No wonder the Range Rover is in all ours TATA umbrella.
Costumer service and satisfaction are two words this company never learn or cared least.
Rather than learning and improving their indigenous product they are bring down the world renowned brand to their level. HAH! Kudos TATA.

What level are you talking about and who is the world renowned brand? I am a Land Rover fan, but the fact is that over past decade or two they have not been reliable. They were not selling much either and were loss making till Tata turned their fortune. Please get your facts right before posting against one of the most respected Indian brands.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by BlackPearl

What level are you talking about and who is the world renowned brand? I am a Land Rover fan, but the fact is that over past decade or two they have not been reliable. They were not selling much either and were loss making till Tata turned their fortune. Please get your facts right before posting against one of the most respected Indian brands.

I suggest you show us those facts, i.e. statistics. So far I have not seen a single fact in this whole discussion, only "statements". Would be nice to get some unbiassed and objective view on this "reliability issue".

Remarkably, they've been extremely reliable with very enthusiastic owners in the rest of the world I know.

I probably know literally dozens of very happy Landrover drivers, still statistically speaking it's not relevant. But the various customer surveys in other countries are, and they show very happy Landrover owners and extremely happy Jaguar owners.

Although India does present its own challenges in terms of what a car needs to withstand, I'm not convinced that it is much worse then other cars. Typically, bad roads, potholes etc . might give cause for some issues on the wheels, suspension and so, but would rarely cause a full break down (unless you blow a tire on a pothole, but that's hardly a car's fault).

Extreme temperatures, cold/hot climates, humidity, to some degree dust, are a bigger problem on the engine and some other components. India, other than being humid and a bit dusty for a few months is'n't too bad an environment for a car. Plenty of countries where it gets much colder, hotter, dustier and as least as humid as India and Jaguar seems to be doing fine, or at least I'm not aware of problems.

Even where we lived in Kansas City we would have 30-40 centimeters of snow for several weeks, temperatures down below -25oC, in the summer temperatures soar upwards of 45oC with humidity on par with Delhi. Have you ever driven through the prairies? Kansas has 700 miles of it. Stretches all the way out from Kansas City to Denver, Colorado. Not exactly dust free either!

I have blown several tires and bended my rims more than once on US potholes! So far, touch wood, I haven't had any such problems on Indian roads!

Tata was a big turning point for Jaguar and Landrover. Before they were notorious for poor build quality. Get the latest issue of Jaguar world for some interesting insights of some of the former Managing Directors at Jaguar who talk openly about these problems of the past.

Jeroen

[RSR]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I suggest you show us those facts, i.e. statistics. So far I have not seen a single fact in this whole discussion, only "statements". Would be nice to get some unbiassed and objective view on this "reliability issue".

Remarkably, they've been extremely reliable with very enthusiastic owners in the rest of the world I know.

Geodedag, Jeroen!

Would J D Power surveys count as enough statistics? I know these aren't perfect, but these are "statistics" that you seem to love so much, as opposed to owners' mere "complaints" about poor reliability.

Here you go, then. J D Power's list of most reliable SUVs and Crossovers for 2013 in North America. In the top 9, there are 2 American brands. Unsurprisingly, Japanese brands deservedly take home 7 spots in the most reliable list. Not a Landie in sight, predictably (they're sitting in the workshop, I presume). I'd love to get the entire list to see how low Land Rover fares in comparison to the Japanese competition:

http://www.noodls.com/view/F4CD130B1...961F69B31BD5A2

And here is the 2013 Vehicle Dependability Survey for the United States. Again this is not perfect, but poor Landie finds itself in its deserved place, and that is at the bottom of the heap:

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Although India does present its own challenges in terms of what a car needs to withstand, I'm not convinced that it is much worse then other cars. Typically, bad roads, potholes etc . might give cause for some issues on the wheels, suspension and so, but would rarely cause a full break down (unless you blow a tire on a pothole, but that's hardly a car's fault).

Extreme temperatures, cold/hot climates, humidity, to some degree dust, are a bigger problem on the engine and some other components. India, other than being humid and a bit dusty for a few months is'n't too bad an environment for a car. Plenty of countries where it gets much colder, hotter, dustier and as least as humid as India and Jaguar seems to be doing fine, or at least I'm not aware of problems.

Jeroen

True. India is a bad and tough place for cars, but there are actually worse places. And unsurprisingly, Land Rover (not Jaguar) fares even worse as far as the reliability perception (based on reliability facts) goes in such places.

While going through an unfortunate Landie owner's experiences with his shockingly unreliable Discovery, I learned this:

In Africa they say, "If you want to go to the bush, you can take a Land Rover. If you want to come back, then better take a Land Cruiser".

[Honda Monk]

Originally Posted by BlackPearl

What level are you talking about and who is the world renowned brand? I am a Land Rover fan, but the fact is that over past decade or two they have not been reliable. They were not selling much either and were loss making till Tata turned their fortune. Please get your facts right before posting against one of the most respected Indian brands.

Hello boy, I am not talking about the whole tata brand, I guess we were talking specifically about tata automobiles here.
The company started (with passenger vehicle) over 2 decades back is yet to get it's acts correct on its homeland where even same home grown smaller enterprise Mahindra has got it's products much ahead. The marketing and after sales service thing is a known horror story so please cut the crap of reputation.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by RSR

Geodedag, Jeroen!

While going through an unfortunate Landie owner's experiences with his shockingly unreliable Discovery, I learned this:

In Africa they say, "If you want to go to the bush, you can take a Land Rover. If you want to come back, then better take a Land Cruiser".

Well, as someone who has driven thousands of miles through Africa, from deserts to jungles I can honestly say I've never experienced a major break down with either Land Rover or Land Cruiser. The Land Cruiser were by and large at lot cheaper though!

Have a look at this piece of JD Powel statistic too: It's the so-called Apeal study. Interestingly Landrover comes in number three overall and number one (Range Rover) in the SUV category.

http://autos.jdpower.com/content/pre...peal-study.htm

On the same JD powel site you can get reports and owners feedback per make/model. Check out what the RangeRover owners say:

http://www.roadtestreports.co.uk/roa...r/Range_Rover/

Makes for a pretty impressive read!

And yet more statistical info from JD Powell on what is known as the Initial Quality Study.

http://autos.jdpower.com/content/pre...lity-study.htm

Note that the spread of the result is much less than in some of the other surverys. Landrover sort of in the middle.

Just a couple more observations. the VDS states:
The study finds that the fewer problems owners experience with their vehicle, the greater their loyalty to the brand. Combining previous-year VDS results with actual vehicle trade-in data from the J.D. Power and Associates Power Information Network(R) (PIN), J.D. Power finds that 54 percent of owners who do not experience any problems with their vehicle stay with the same brand when they purchase their next new vehicle. Brand loyalty slips to just 41 percent, on average, when owners experience three or more problems with their vehicle.

While owners of premium models are more loyal than owners of non-premium models, on average, the loyalty of premium model owners is more impacted by an increase in the number of problems experienced. For example, 55 percent of owners of premium models remain loyal to the brand when they report zero problems with their vehicle, compared with 53 percent of owners of non-premium models who report zero problems. Loyalty begins to decline as soon as the owner experiences any problems with their vehicle. When experiencing three or more problems with their vehicle, loyalty among owners of premium models declines to 39 percent and 41 percent among owners of non-premium models.

"It's one thing to ask consumers if they intend to buy another vehicle from the same brand, but it is much more impactful to know what happens when they actually buy their next vehicle," said Sargent. "By combining our consumer research with trade-in data, we see a clear correlation between dependability and loyalty."

All of that makes a lot of sense, although it doesn't appear that appearant for Landrover.

Here's another JD Powell statement that puts to rest some myths on this forum that newer cars are less reliable then older ones:

•The perception that all-new or redesigned models can't be as dependable as those that have been on the market for a year or more is not accurate. Just because a model is new to the market or has been recently redesigned doesn't necessarily mean it won't be as reliable. In fact, dependability of all-new and redesigned models is at a record high, according to 2013 VDS data.
•Dependability of three-year-old models is at an all-time high. If you can't afford a new vehicle, or simply don't want one, you should feel confident when buying a certified pre-owned (CPO) vehicle

Take your pick what makes sense for you.

What is interesting in this forum discussion of course is how many of us are (potential) JLR owners? If you're not that doesn't make your opinion any less. But admittedly, if I was JLR I woul focus on those who are my customer or are likely to be my customer at some point in time. Whilst its probably important to maintain a certain image in the market overall, at the end of the day you need to understand how to appeal to a very small percentage of the population when operating in this high segment market.

That might take something very different then say for a true mass product type of car.

My JLR dealer in Kansas City was extremely good at this.

Jeroen

[RSR]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Well, as someone who has driven thousands of miles through Africa, from deserts to jungles I can honestly say I've never experienced a major break down with either Land Rover or Land Cruiser. The Land Cruiser were by and large at lot cheaper though!

I do NOT doubt your experiences with either Land Rover or Land Cruiser. Just one query, though. When was/were the trip(s) and which was/were the Land Rover(s) you used in your trip(s) across Africa? Was it an old (and I mean old) Landie, or a new(er) but basic Defender kind of vehicle, or one/more of the flashy Range Rover kind of ones?

The old ones and the Defender types aren't complicated at all, and don't have too many parts that would fail, catastrophically stranding one in the middle of nowhere. Even if they did break down, they could be fixed by using some spanners and screwdrivers, by any knowledgeable mechanic in an African village or by the users themselves, if they know how to do so. On the other hand, the complex new Landies and Rangies seem to be poorly designed and engineered in terms of reliability, have too many things that could go wrong, and a spanner-screwdriver kind of mechanic would be clueless on how to fix them.

Even the new Land Cruisers, and other Toyota and Japanese off-roaders have complicated stuff and features. But they rarely break down and leave one stranded. There is something the Japanese do right, which the Europeans (except maybe the French) seem to be unable to do.

If I were to drive across those God-forsaken jungles and deserts, I would politely decline to use a Land Rover/other European vehicle even if a new one were to be offered for free. I would rather do the trip in even a used Land Cruiser or even a Suzuki Jimny. This is based on what I've experienced. I've used (and abused) cheap (Maruti) Suzukis for long, and the worst failures on even the cheapest one I've had were a blown fuse here or a relay gone bad there. Change it, and they immediately start firing on all cylinders and never miss a beat, as they always do.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Have a look at this piece of JD Powel statistic too: It's the so-called Apeal study. Interestingly Landrover comes in number three overall and number one (Range Rover) in the SUV category.

Unfortunately, the APEAL has got nothing to do with reliability.

The APEAL (Automotive Performance, Execution And Layout) Study, which serves as the industry benchmark for new-vehicle appeal, has been completely redesigned for 2013. The study, now in its 18th year, has been updated to better measure the appeal of today's vehicles, particularly with respect to the new technologies and features now being offered. Owners evaluate their vehicle across 77 attributes, which roll up into an overall APEAL score on a 1,000-point scale.

In other words, it is just a measure of the vehicle's appeal to buyers in terms of features, technologies and stuff like that. It doesn't consider the reliability or even the quality of the appealing features offered. This index is sadly not relevant to either quality or reliability.

Originally Posted by Jeroen

On the same JD powel site you can get reports and owners feedback per make/model. Check out what the RangeRover owners say:

http://www.roadtestreports.co.uk/roa...r/Range_Rover/

Makes for a pretty impressive read!

I'm not sure how this site is linked to the J D Power statistics. According to the website, We have brought together road test reports and car reviews from all of the major providers along with consumer car reviews from the people who actually drive the vehicles day in day out, you. These reports include customer satisfaction, NCAP ratings, quality, prices, vehicle specifications, video reviews, performance, reliabilty, environmental rating, running costs, car depreciation and styling, handling and comfort.


In other words, they are just another review/customer feedback site. No different from, say:

http://www.landroverhell.com

The experiences in the above one are scary to say the least

Even in that roadtestreports.uk site, no one (except one lucky person) praises Land Rover/Range Rover's reliability or quality. They all wax eloquent about its features, off-road abilities, ride quality, "prestige" and stuff like that. In terms of reliability, these are the comments on the same site:

Comment 1:

I bought this car in Spain and paid €95K. During the first year I have been very happy with this vehicle, even including features that I was discovering almost on weekely basis. This car has been fulfilling all my requirements, until a month ago when the famous problem of the red triangle sign came up and the car switched to safe mode, restricting performance, in the middle of the road. Since then I have taken the vehicle to the dealer. Initially they ordered parts for the engine vacuum connected to the turbo. This solutions failed. They then ordered additional parts that had to be sent from the UK. Every order took more than a week. Anyhow, the car is still at the workshop. Conclusion: The concept of this car is very good, but Land Rover has rolled it out too early before it has been tested enough and without being prepared at the dealers to support these types of problems.

Comment 2:

Most unreliable car, purchased 1st car from Stratstone of Perth Land Rover in 2005. I had 8 courtesy cars in 10 months, rejected car no one, now on car number 2 it has been in the garage 8 times and going back in again. The mileage is 17,000 with a large portion due to return visits from Glasgow to Perth garage.

Comment 3:

Most unreliable car I have ever owned, I drove seven different courtesy cars in 9 months, Spent half my time back and forward to the main agent. The inside is well finished and the car looks well but never buy one that is not under manufacturers warranty unless you have a spare grand a month for repairs. Sold the car after 9 months and lost £30,000 but at least its gone New Audi tdi Q7 on order.



My battery is getting very low, and I'll have to put the American fruit device on a charge now. I'll type my response to the IQS and the rest of your comment after some time.

Tot ziens!

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by RSR

Tot ziens!

nice to see some Dutch here!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not discounting the very poor score of LR in this survey at all. It is what it is. What I was aiming to show is that there are many different ways at looking at what makes cars attractive and that, although research suggest it, reliabililty doesn't necessarily drive customer behavior only.

I need to dig into the reliabity figures a bit more on how they measured it, calculated it and how they formulated these results. I would be cautious to interpret these figures, let me explain:

So, I believe all, if not most of us will believe that the Lexus is unbelievably reliable. It has a score of 71. Now the LR has a score just over three times that number, 220. Does that make it three time less reliable? And if so, what does it mean? What is three times less reliable of unbelievable reliable.

To put it in a slightly different context; If you would put these statistics in a slightly different format. Say incidents per km. for argument sake, Lexus would have one incident per trillion kilometers. LR would have, following the above logic one incident per 1/3 trillion kilometers. That is still three times worse, but on an absolute scale still pretty good, I guess.

Althoug I don't dispute the ranking or the findings I find the unit of measurements problems per 100 vehicle difficult to interpret in terms of what it means to the average driver (who ever he or she might be )

Because that's the next thing, once you have data, how to analyse it to something meaningfull, is the next tricky thing.

Now to add some more diverity into the discussion, have a look at the JD Powell UK Car Survey: Jaguar on 1, LR on 6th position!

This is a user survey, in which reliability is measured by clubbed in with appeal, dealer satisfaction and a few other parameters, so different from the reliability survey, but still.

here is what it says on LR;
Star performer: Land RoverLand Rover continues its march up the ranks, vaulting six places to take its first top-10 spot. Freelander owners noted improved dealer service and less onerous overheads. Meanwhile, the Discovery gave drivers a less taxing time, with 30% fewer faults reported; in fact, the SUV led its field for reliability. -

So, what do have here then, another case of British stiff upper lip refusing to acknowledge home grown products are crap, or are British road and car owners fundamentally different from USA and or India??

Enjoy!

Jeroen