[drmohitg]

Amazing design. Easily the best looking compact sedan out there. Only if Tata can now back it up with some good quality interiors and a killer price tag. When is the launch expected?

[directinjection]

Is it not possible for Tata to give the Zest styling treatment to Manza?

Sure, it'll involve additional capital investment but the increase in sales will more than compensate the same. A longer Zest can compete with the likes of Verna and Etios. To give it an edge over competition, the car could even be given a wheelbase longer than Manza's. The 4-meter chop job doesn't appeal to all!

[sachinayak]

While I personally am not a big fan of the design, this is unfamiliar territory for TML. When did we last see such praise for a Tata product design. Good job TML.

[narayan]

Originally Posted by directinjection

Is it not possible for Tata to give the Zest styling treatment to Manza?

Sure, it'll involve additional capital investment but the increase in sales will more than compensate the same. A longer Zest can compete with the likes of Verna and Etios. To give it an edge over competition, the car could even be given a wheelbase longer than Manza's. The 4-meter chop job doesn't appeal to all!

DI - your suggestion might be very appropriate but in the Indian context do you think anyone will buy a "extended" version of a cheaper car by paying more ?
Tata already tried that with the Indigo XL ( remember ? ). It received raving reviews for its E-CLASS beating rear leg room but bombed big time very soon afterwards


@sachinvinayak - I beg to differ. I feel TML has always received good reviews for their designs. Safari, Storme ( a bit mixed ), Sierra, Estate, Indica, Nano and even the Vista. Almost all of TML cars have had good proportionate designs ( atleast externally )

[directinjection]

Originally Posted by narayan

DI - your suggestion might be very appropriate but in the Indian context do you think anyone will buy a "extended" version of a cheaper car by paying more ? Tata already tried that with the Indigo XL ( remember ? ). It received raving reviews for its E-CLASS beating rear leg room but bombed big time very soon afterwards

Manza is an excellent product but suffers from poor sales due to dated and gawky styling. If it could benefit from the looks of Zest, the sales would only move north. 80% of the job is already done.

While they are at it, they could also explore the possibility of a longer wheelbase but that's not central to the idea of having an attractive looking full-fledged sedan in TM's portfolio.

Incidentally, Zest has the wheelbase of Bolt/Vista, not Manza whereas Indigo CS has the wheelbase of regular Indigo, now discontinued.

[simplyself]

DRLs are not required here in India. I do not know what purpose do they serve in broad day light.

I do feel discussion and the "safety aspect" of DRLs is taking things too far.

[Shanksta]

Originally Posted by simplyself

DRLs are not required here in India. I do not know what purpose do they serve in broad day light.

I do feel discussion and the "safety aspect" of DRLs is taking things too far.

DRL's definitely do not have any safety aspect associated with them in our country, rather they have become a norm or a feature to sell a car in India these days.
BUT, In general DRL's do have a safety aspect they were first used in Scandinavian countries(Norway,Sweden,etc.,) since these countries were relatively dark and foggy even during daytime. But over the years this was adapted in various countries and people think they should be present in every car now without knowing their function.

[mahesh_sn]

Originally Posted by directinjection

Is it not possible for Tata to give the Zest styling treatment to Manza?

Sure, it'll involve additional capital investment but the increase in sales will more than compensate the same. A longer Zest can compete with the likes of Verna and Etios. To give it an edge over competition, the car could even be given a wheelbase longer than Manza's. The 4-meter chop job doesn't appeal to all!

Somewhere earlier in this same thread I had mentioned about the need to freshen up or bring an all new Manza. IMO, this is imperative with the onset of Zest as I expect it to cannibalize sales of Manza in its current avatar. I would anyday prefer a 90 PS Zest Qjet over a 90 PS Manza Qjet, smaller boot notwithstanding. However, I am not in favor of a longer Zest as a new Manza. That would be too much of a same thing as in already the Zest is an elongated Bolt. Instead, I would like to see the updated Manza with the design language of Manza Hybrid Concept showcased in the auto expo a couple of years back.

[M.R.Boruwa]

Tata Bolts Tail Lamps resemble good old Palio. They definitely could have done better. Side view ( From Pictures) looks like Palio/ Palio Stile’s cousin. Definitely rest of the external styling does not complement Front end and Interior.

[VinodDevil81]

Originally Posted by directinjection

Is it not possible for Tata to give the Zest styling treatment to Manza?

Sure, it'll involve additional capital investment but the increase in sales will more than compensate the same. A longer Zest can compete with the likes of Verna and Etios. To give it an edge over competition, the car could even be given a wheelbase longer than Manza's. The 4-meter chop job doesn't appeal to all!

It may be possible for them to launch a long wheelbased variant, but I hope they don't do that.
Being a tata with an extended wheelbase, it would be more appealing to taxi/cab wallas only.

The long wheelbase version of Indigo launched some years back never sold in big numbers.

[GrammarNazi]

Just stating my opinion.

Originally Posted by directinjection

Manza is an excellent product but suffers from poor sales due to dated and gawky styling...

I don't think so at all.

This morning a Top end Manza Club Class was parked near my house. It was Purple with a white roof and had plum leather seats. Ofcourse well laden with Chrome treatment & the infotainment system inside looked quite upmarket.

IMO It looked great! My dad too (not very much of a 'car person') was quite impressed and mentioned that it had rather elegant bling! And its not like we both have the worst of taste in design.

Comparatively Swift Dzire looks terrible and the market still accepts it. So, I don't think people ever gave Manza Club Class the chance it deserved. It had rather nice features & a great back seating angle! Even the A.S.S. seems to've gotten better since atleast the last 2 years (Ctsy : 1st hand experience with T.A.S.S. + I've often read confirmations in this forum itself!).

Long wheelbase...

I don't think the market wants more space. Manza has AMPLE space. IMO the market wants a newly branded different looking sedan from TATA.

Edit : Nothing personal, just thought I must mention because I liked it when I saw it this morning & felt that people should've really had a better re-look when TATA launched Club Class.

[CARDEEP]

Motoroids have managed spy shots of the Zest AMT. Please refer below link to their report & pics:

http://www.motoroids.com/news/spied-...mages-surface/

[RSR]

In an extremely competitive game, when one has been thoroughly outsmarted & outclassed by not one, but many players (with possibly a couple more waiting to do the same), trying to play catch-up is going to get one nowhere. When the game itself has moved beyond one's reach, trying to run behind it is sheer folly.

There is only one way to salvage the situation in such cases and give oneself an outside chance at winning, or coming out with one's head held high, at the very least. And that way is to change the rules of the game itself!

Call me a naysayer, or a doubting Thomas, or whatever unflattering term you want. Even if one is a diehard fanboy of Tata Motors, if one were to be honest to oneself, one will admit that the game has moved on well beyond Tata Motors' grasp. Their last ditch attempts at introducing the Bolt & Zest, Nano variants, UV refreshes, even future vehicles like the "Kite" meant to replace the aging Indica V2 and a ₹ 2 million+ SUV based on a discontinued Land Rover platform, Revotron, 3-cylinder compact common-rail diesel etc. (for these are indeed desperate last ditch attempts to stay relevant in the market) are only going to delay the inevitable. They can only manage to slow down Tata's rapid and continuing slide down the monthly passenger vehicle sales charts at worst, or help Tata maintain a constant position (and numbers) among the midfield runners at best. These attempts are not going to enable them to climb up at all.

So should Tata call it quits, and exit the passenger vehicle segment completely? Or become like Ashok Leyland, who are smartly targeting only the taxi/fleet operators (with help from their partner Nissan) in terms of passenger vehicles, apart from their core area of commercial vehicles?

Not at all! It would be sheer folly for the flagship company (Tata Motors) of a giant conglomerate like Tata to call it quits in a segment in which it was the no.2 not so long ago. Besides, it would be a great disaster for the Indian car market to lose a big player, and a huge loss for the Indian car buyer (even if he/she hates Tata Motors with a passion). Whatever the shortcomings of Tata Motors are as a passenger vehicle manufacturer, they have played the biggest role in making cars affordable for the Indian car buying public. I'm not just talking about the Nano. Even when the original Indica was launched way back in the last millennium, it forced Maruti Suzuki to do the unthinkable by slashing prices of its hatchbacks, for the first time in its history. If the world automobile boffins applaud India's frugal engineering practices today, a large part of that applause should go to Tata Motors.

As I mentioned earlier, the only way to salvage the situation and give oneself an outside chance of victory is to change the rules of the game! No, I don't mean doing shady things like lobbying the government to give them special favours, or create special, separate categories of vehicles for products they have developed, or things like that.

I mean change the rules of the game in a healthy way. Exactly like Tata have done before, at least once, if not more. When Rata Tata set out the framework for the Indica project, the market was a near monopoly, with Maruti Suzuki accounting for ~ 85% of passenger vehicle sales in the country. Tata wisely did not take Maruti head-on in their game, for he knew it would be futile.

Like the visionary that he is, he sought to change the rules of the game itself. Instead of creating a hatchback to fight the Maruti cars (and some also rans like the Fiat Uno, plus the new-comers who were also entering the market then) head-on, he famously stated that "the Indica would have the exterior dimensions of a Zen, the interior dimensions of an Ambassador and the cheap running costs of a diesel". When it was launched, the Indica had only a base carbureted petrol variant, without even air-conditioning. It was only to have a low entry price for the range, and Tata did not intend to sell it in large numbers. He knew the petrol small car game was beyond Tata Motors, and hence wisely changed the game's rules, by virtually creating the diesel hatchback market (though the Zen diesel and Uno diesel were already there, they were just an additional option, much like CNG/LPG variants are today).

Tata needs the same visionary spirit now. They need to change the rules of the game itself, to merely get back into the game. And how do they do it again?

Different time, same situation; different fuel, same result. Yes, I mean Tata must go ELECTRIC! And by "go", I mean go all out, just like they went all out with the original Indica diesel. Electric propulsion is the future, and Tata must take the lead in this. They can have a couple of petrol and diesel variants on sale just for a low entry price and for giving the option to customers. But all their efforts must be concentrated on electrics, both plug-in/series hybrids and all electric vehicles.

The Manza hybrid was already posted earlier. A Zest hybrid with the same technology can be launched, plus a Bolt hybrid. An all-electric Bolt based on the Vista EV concept developed by Tata must become the top priority:



The only way of saving the wonderful Nano now (in India, at least) and making it a true worldwide success it deserves to be, is to position it as a safe, comfortable, convenient, stylish, electric city car. With an electric Nano, the car's main weakness (engine under the rear-seat) will be turned into its top strength! It's about time they put the Nano EV concept they showcased earlier into production at Sanand. And give it the necessary safety features to make it meet crash-test norms (it can be done, as shown by the UK test) or better still, Euro-NCAP norms. A 3* Euro-NCAP rating for the Nano EV should suffice (given that the much, much more expensive BMW i3 manages only a 4* rating):



With these kinds of specs, the Nano EV should be sufficient to serve the daily needs of at least 75% of users worldwide:



All-electric technology would prove to be too expensive in its larger cars and utility vehicles (for the near future, at least) and that is where hybrids come in. Plug-in hybrids to be precise. These are not only cheaper to manufacture, and simpler than parallel hybrids, but their fuel efficiency gains are more, and they are the perfect stepping stone to all-electric vehicles.

It's time for Tata to think in a radical and out-of-the-box manner to get back into contention. Desperate last ditch attempts and stop-gap measures can only do so much. They need to radically alter the rules of the game, as they did with their first proper car, which helped them into the no.2 spot. They need to invest heavily in electric and hybrid technology (perhaps acquire a defunct player like Th!nk of Norway/Finland), get into supply agreements with or purchase a Lithium battery manufacturer, help states/cities and private enterprises like malls/offices set up charging infrastructure, and promote electric technology in a big, big way. They can even build up hype that "the Nano EV or Bolt EV is as quiet a Rolls-Royce, as cheap to run as a Scooty and as cheap to maintain as a Splendor".

Sure, they would not be the pioneers in electric vehicles in India, Reva (now Mahindra Reva) is. Tata have a track record of creating new segments, only to have Mahindra imitate them quickly and in most cases, better them (like the Sumo/Bolero, Safari/Scorpio, Grande/Xylo, 207/Pik-Up, Xenon/Gateway, Ace/Maxximo, Ace Magic/Maxximo Passenger, RX/Genio, Indigo CS/Verito Vibe and some more).

It's time for Tata Motors to pay their "frenemies" Mahindra back in the same coin - comprehensively outclass and outsell Mahindra in an area pioneered by Mahindra Reva.

This is not something they can keep thinking about. It's a question of survival for Tata Motors in the passenger vehicle space. They need to bring back that savvy visionary spirit that made them the no.2 in the Indian market against all odds, that of being smart enough to realise the game is beyond them, and hence get back into it and give themselves a chance at victory, by changing the very rules of the game.

They have done it before, but they desperately need to do it again - NOW!

[madhu33]

Point well made by RSR.
However , this is getting slightly OT .

Personally though am myself a fan of TML and a very happy/more than satisfied user of the MANZA,
i doubt TML can do something as radical as the INDICA (segment breaking)...The times were different then.

Forget about commercial electric / hybrid tech in tata cars, if they were so keen to innovate they would have had a 6 speed gear box for the Aria/ Storme . They would have more diesel engines variety .How they could have launched the Aria with a 3.0L dicor engine mated to 6 speed MT) to give it that edge of unmatched drivability and expressway speeds (the one that could sweat out the XUV500)
How the Manza could have done better with a 1.6 or1.5 L Diesel motor (more torquey than the 1.3Qjet)
But no that never happened ..
On many of my posts on teambhp i have defended a lot of unnecessary ill informed criticism of Tata cars . But this inability to continuously innovate and bring cutting edge tech to their cars has been the grudge in my heart against TML.
I would love to be proved wrong on this in next 3-4 years.

Coming back to the topic i.e. the bolt and the zest, i seriously wish that both these cars together give them an additional sales of at least 8000 cars a month. (that makes it around 13000-14000 cars between Manza , vista , indigo , Indica, bolt & the zest) (this means around 18-20,000monthly sales for TMl)
I think it is going to be difficult, but i really wish TML that good luck.

[pgsagar]

Originally Posted by RSR

So should Tata call it quits, and exit the passenger vehicle segment completely? Or become like Ashok Leyland, who are smartly targeting only the taxi/fleet operators (with help from their partner Nissan) in terms of passenger vehicles, apart from their core area of commercial vehicles?

Not at all!

Why, not at all? So that we can continue to laugh at their cars? I am fed up of seeing everyone taking a potshot at Tata Motors and also more fed up of seeing TM doing nothing to improve their lot. And they will never learn. Also, RSR, just tell me honestly, will you ever buy a Tata car in future? No matter how much they improve. I'm sure answer is a resounding no. I'm sure none of any teambhpian will ever buy a Tata car again. Heck, even cabbies won't buy. They abandoned Tata brand long ago. Even a village simpleton with very little knowledge about things automotive won't buy a Tata car. So, who are they planning to make cars for? Martians? Just get out of car business and focus on other industries. India has forgotten Tata cars altogether. It is like Philips of 70s/80s. Once very strong brand. This brand once had Indians eating out of its palm. Now? Have you seen any Philips outlet or any new product in any household? Well, Tata has gone same way. Bye Bye Tata cars.