[vinit.merchant]

The price points of scross and ertiga do not deserve an AMT. At these price points, they are better off offering either a proper AT or none.

[revintup]

Originally Posted by tjacob

Magneti Marelli has recently inaugurated its manufacturing facility at Manesar, ending the shortage of supply. This means, Maruti can now equip more of budget hatchbacks with the 5-speed AMT gearbox. The existing 4-speed conventional AT could be of service for both Swift and Ertiga while the premium S-Cross is likely to receive the same CVT unit that is available in the Euro-spec model.

The thread title seems to be pointing towards adding AMTs to the Swift, Ertiga and S cross. A bit confused here.

[BaluJ]

Originally Posted by tjacob

The images are of the Swift Sport CVT sold in Malaysia, not any kind AMT version sold in India, I put up the images just for representation purposes.

Just dont understand this. If Maruti already has a CVT box for swift, why not introduce it in India? I found the AMT box to be jerky in both the Celerio and Alto

[avdhesh15]

The TCSS (Twin Clutch System by Suzuki) seems to be a mix of the AMT and traditional twin clutch systems (e.g. DSG). This has been introduced in UK on the S-Cross along with paddle shifts.

Some of the reviews I read online about this gear-box seem to be positive as well and hence I believe it's time Maruti provided diesel automatics in India considering they already have the technology. There is a perceived market for that and that's where Hyundai is cashing in.

As a prospective S-Cross buyer, I would surely prefer an auto version if launched next year and would be ready to pay 75-100k extra for it.

Indian Autos Blog
The TCSS is a six-speed automated manual transmission (AMT), but gets two hydraulically controlled clutches, similar to DSG. One clutch is in-charge of gears 1, 3 and 5, while the second clutch controls gears 2, 4 and 6. Suzuki’s engineers seem to have combined the dual-clutch technology in the cost effective package of an AMT. The desired gear will be “instantly available” on the TCSS according to the company.

Suzuki UK Website
TCSS is a six speed automated manual transmission that incorporates hydraulically controlled clutches and a gear change assembly that enables it to be driven in a similar way to an automatic gearbox. The system utilises one clutch for 1st, 3rd and 5th gears and the other for 2nd, 4th and 6th gears. Operating the transmission in this way ensures that whether the driver is accelerating or decelerating, the desired gear is instantly available.

[volkman10]

Maruti Suzuki gets the low cost Automatics to Masses.

In the past one year alone, the proportion of automatics has risen from 2% of all passenger car sales to 5%, thanks to AMT - expected to gain popularity in coming years.

Maruti Suzuki studied the rapidly worsening traffic conditions in Gurgaon and Bengaluru. The company was looking at an automatic variant at an acceptable price without compromising fuel efficiency or green norms. After testing other technologies such as automatic transmission and continuously variable transmission, it settled for AMT.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/autos/...perIr3xsN.html

[landcruiser123]

Originally Posted by avdhesh15

The TCSS (Twin Clutch System by Suzuki) seems to be a mix of the AMT and traditional twin clutch systems (e.g. DSG). This has been introduced in UK on the S-Cross along with paddle shifts.

Twin Clutch Box is a Dual Clutch Automatic, eerily similar to the DSG by VW.
Dual clutch gearboxes are AMTs, but the same gearbox can't be operated manually due to complexities.

Whereas in the AMTs Maruti sells in India, the gearbox is the same as the manual one.

[E30_325iSport]

Its a little disappointing to see manufacturers talking about AMTs in India as though it were the next big thing, I think as a customer I have every right to feel patronised about this.

AMTs have been around for decades in Europe however they never really took off mainly for the following reasons:
--Unacceptable Shift Quality: this has been (and continues to be) the biggest failing of AMTs. It is physically impossible for a clutched transmission to offer the same shift quality as a standard auto transmission because the standard transmission has a torque converter which acts as a fluid coupling and damps out any torque mismatches in the driveline during shifts. This is also why they are nowhere to be seen in America where shift quality is king.
--Slow to respond, especially with heavy accel pedal inputs. This is because again, a clutched setup cannot be sped up much without severely impacting component durability and..... you guess it, shift quality

They do have some advantages which is why they are now popular in developing markets.
--low cost route to automated shifting, the manufacturers can automate their current manual gearboxes with an AMT system (off the shelf systems from Magneti Marelli are available)
--low maintenance, AMTs are as complicated as normal manual gearboxes i.e not very much. This means low maintenance especially as Automatic Gearboxes can require periodic servicing and oil changes depending on usage. In developing markets this is a major plus.
--Little to no impact on fuel economy. AMTs are more efficient than regular Automatics due to the absence of torque converters which are a major source of losses in the transmission. Hence it is very well suited to developing markets, especially given our 'kitna deti hai' mentality

[Rahul Bhalgat]

Originally Posted by E30_325iSport

AMTs have been around for decades in Europe however they never really took off mainly for the following reasons:
--Unacceptable Shift Quality....
--Slow to respond, especially with heavy accel pedal inputs....

They do have some advantages which is why they are now popular in developing markets.
--low cost route to automated shifting....
--low maintenance, AMTs are as complicated as normal manual gearboxes....
--Little to no impact on fuel economy....

Very well stated E30_325iSport.

But we can consider AMT just to relieve the frequent left foot operation in city traffic. This advantage alone can qualify AMT for average buyer. If we are not happy with the shift quality, we can always shift the gears ourselves, using + and -.

[E30_325iSport]

Originally Posted by Rahul Bhalgat

If we are not happy with the shift quality, we can always shift the gears ourselves, using + and -.

I think you are confusing shift placement/timing with shift quality. The two are completely different things and are unrelated to each other.

Using the manual shift function only means you are overriding the pre programmed gear selection points (even this is quite misleading because most gearbox ECUs have speed/load ranges where a shift will not be allowed, this is different to a manual box where you can do what you feel like).

Shift quality remains unchanged whether the shift occurs as per ECU programming or is manually commanded. It is a function of several factors, primarily gearbox type. Torque Converter autos have best quality, then DCT, then AMT (very far behind DCT).

[Rahul Bhalgat]

Originally Posted by E30_325iSport

I think you are confusing shift placement/timing with shift quality. The two are completely different things and are unrelated to each other.

Using the manual shift function only means you are overriding the pre programmed gear selection points (even this is quite misleading because most gearbox ECUs have speed/load ranges where a shift will not be allowed, this is different to a manual box where you can do what you feel like).

Shift quality remains unchanged whether the shift occurs as per ECU programming or is manually commanded. It is a function of several factors, primarily gearbox type. Torque Converter autos have best quality, then DCT, then AMT (very far behind DCT).

Understood your point.

No doubt, the torque converter AT will offer better shift quality. But with AMT, at least we do not need to press a clutch pedal and shift will be at least as good as a manual shift. This alone shall serve the purpose of many many buyers.

Some car owners of course will prefer a Torque Converter or a DCT or a CVT.

In a year or two, we will come to know how the Indian market responds to AMT compared with TC / CVT / DCT.

[E30_325iSport]

Originally Posted by Rahul Bhalgat

shift will be at least as good as a manual shift.

That's a huge assumption you are making. Shift quality of an AMT is quite poor to begin with, plus you have to consciously change your driving style to improve shift quality, which is not the case with TC Autos.

AMTs generally struggle with Power On Upshifts (i.e shifts where the driver is continuously demanding torque). A major factor in shifting is finely controlling the engine output so that the gearbox gets time to change ratios (similar to a driver pressing a clutch pedal). During a power on upshift the driver keeps the accelerator pedal pressed (this is different to a normal gearbox where the driver would come off the accel pedal while initiating a shift) and therefore the ECU has to finely control engine output.

This is more difficult to do in practice than it sounds, therefore AMTs have quite a large delay built into the shifts to ensure that the torque reduction takes place, this increases shift times.

The best example of an AMT is the BMW E60 M5. The reasons BMW went for the AMT (Called SMG in BMW terminology) are
--high efficiency, engine output not lost through a torque converter
--very quick shifts possible-- this comes at a high price, the car has some of the worst shift quality ever to come from a premium manufacturer.

So in summary yes AMTs are suited to Indian conditions but are they at the forefront of automotive innovation as is being made out by manufacturers? Sadly not.

[Dream Catch]

Hi

I am not sure if this is the right forum or not (Mods please push it to the right one if this is not the correct one), and I am not sure if I am asking the right questions or not in the right way but this has been bugging me for some time now, so I have to ask.

In December I was test driving various cars as I was looking for a new car. Among other cars I also tried Celerio AMT and Wagon R AMT and I found their AMTs to give a different feel while driving. I somehow felt that the AMT gear shifting in D drive was smoother in the Wagon R compared to Celerio it was smoother, the pickup was faster the response to the acclerator peddle was better. I was more keen on the Celerio and this bothered me. (Its a different matter that I eventually I ended up with a manual Ciaz ). But coming back to my issue, just to be sure then I drove 2 different Celerios, but had a similar experience. What I want to know from tech-knowledgeable people (since I am not one) -

1. Is the difference because of the gearbox i.e. the original gearbox? I mean if I drive a manual Celerio and Wagon R will I still feel this difference?
2. The connected question is are all AMTs same or they would behave differently with different gearboxes.

On purpose I am sticking to only one car company (i.e not including Tata Nano or other AMTs), so that the question remains simple. TIA

Dream Catch

[Durango Dude]

I think the all AMT's must come with a hill hold function for safety purposes. I'd keep a safe distance from an AMT equipped car on an incline, these cars are being bought by mainly newbies in the fond hope that it may be easier to drive, but can also be dangerous.

[volkman10]

Wabco to start assembly of AMTs in India soon, for commercial vehicles.

The assembly of AMT is expected to start by October this year. At the beginning, bulk of the components for AMT will be brought from outside, but as the volumes go up, more localisations will come in.

http://auto.economictimes.indiatimes...-soon/52087280

[hybridpetrol]

Originally Posted by volkman10

Wabco to start assembly of AMTs in India soon, for commercial vehicles.

Good news for commercial vehicles drivers! May be ten years down the line the truck drivers can freely drive without fiddling with clutch and gear too much! Their work would become smoother resulting in less irritation on the road.