[srishiva]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

Couple of comments. The idea that an manual and therefor AMT is always more fuel efficient than a regular automatic is not always true. It really depends on the make/model. Not sure here in India, but certainly in the States and Europe.

Modern automatic boxes are extremely efficient and the so-called slip losses are fairly limited and you would be hard pressed to find that in the FE.

What is generally true is that FE gains are more likely to manifest on small cars with relative small engines. The bigger/more powerful the engine, the less impact slip losses has on FE.

Of course, DSG boxes don't have any slip losses either, but are typically a little more complicated.

The same is true of cost. Again, I don't know how it works out in India, but in other markets its not a given that a manual car is cheaper than the auto variant.


Jeroen

I dont remember any automatic thats more efficient than a manual for any make/model. Even the CVTs which were supposed to be relatively efficient are not.

[bigben]

I would love to take the AMT for a test drive. Will have to wait till the Celerio is in the showrooms.
I wonder if it will sound like an automatic and how much of a lag there will be when changing gears.

[Warwithwheels]

Originally Posted by srishiva

I dont remember any automatic thats more efficient than a manual for any make/model. Even the CVTs which were supposed to be relatively efficient are not.

There you go!



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[srishiva]

Originally Posted by Warwithwheels

There you go!

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Yeah, they might have changed the gear ratios to get the figures. Its similar to automakers adding a 6th gear to get overall better figures in simulated conditions.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by srishiva

I dont remember any automatic thats more efficient than a manual for any make/model. Even the CVTs which were supposed to be relatively efficient are not.

See for some technical background: http://green.autoblog.com/2010/08/18...better-fuel-e/

As per my earlier message, not sure about India, but here are some comparisons of FE and cost as well where the automatic version do better:

http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/...ck-shifts.html

More importantly is how the real life FE would compare automatic to manual. The automatic boxes are optimized for every conceivable driving condition. So on the whole they are likely to do better than any human being. Although of course, those hard core driver of the more manual persuasion believe they are better than a box of tansistors and chips. Unfortunately, blow to the ego, I know, they're not.

Due to the very same effect, autoboxes put less strain on engines and drive train then a manul. In practice not that big a thing, because they are designed that way. Still, if you buy second hand with high mileage, you might want to consider, for that reason, auto over manual.

Another aspect is maintenance cost. Unless something breaks the only thing that needs replacing on a manual box is typically the clutch plate, throw bearing and a few other bits of pieces. Really depends on your driving style, but even on modern cars under favourable circumstances you won't have clutches lasting more than 150-200K. Changing the clutch is always a big job. At the bare minium you need to get the whole gearbox out, on some cars the whole engine + gearbox, before you can get at the clutch.

Most modern autoboxes don't require any maintenance, and are sealed for life. Some might require a transmission fluid flash once every 100K or so. Easy to do. You drain it and you refill. (Well, in reality it could be a bit more complicated, but you certainly don't need to take anything apart. Maybe take the sumpplate off to check the magnets/replace the filter but thats a five minute job.

If you do have problems with an autobox, it might be more costly to repair then a manual. As they tend to be more complicated.

I would say at the end of the day it is probably more a personal preference for various reasons. I have and still own cars that have automatic and manual shift. I've owned a Volve with CVT. I've owned cars with DSG. I've never owned or driven a car with AMT.

My Jaguar XJR comes with a automatic box. It is amazingly smooth. You won't even feel it shifts, unless you put your foot down. And although I would consider myself a good driver, I'm fairly sure if I had to handle 400BHP, on the rear wheels, with my left foot, I'd loose out to the auto box.

My Alfa Spider comes with a manual box and I think it's highly appropiate. Actually Alfa did provide auto boxes on some of their Spiders too. I just don't think it suits the car at all.

I have a Mercedes (w123) with a manual box and my son got a near identical one with an auto box. I drive them both and I can't really say I prefer one over the other. Feels fine either way.

Originally Posted by Warwithwheels

There you go!

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Thanks!

Jeroen

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by Warwithwheels

There you go!

Under ideal test conditions, a DSG or CVT gives more mileage than a manual BUT, in the real world, especially in India, that is not the case. My friend's DSG Laura disappoints when compared to a manual, several owners of the CVT equipped Kizashi claim to be getting figures like 5-7 while I get 10-12 in the city and 12-14 on the Highway in my manual (even though the CVT equipped car is supposedly more fuel efficient).

[pjbiju]

I think such cars are going to become more and more common. Remember those days of scooters when people did not want to move to Kinetic Honda from Bajaj/Vespa etc. Today I think there is no geared scooter on sale in India. People have not moved to regular automatics because of price, availability (not available in too many cars) and fuel efficiency. With the increasing traffic in the cities, these kind of cars are definitely going to get more takers.

[JediKnight]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

More importantly is how the real life FE would compare automatic to manual. The automatic boxes are optimized for every conceivable driving condition. So on the whole they are likely to do better than any human being. Although of course, those hard core driver of the more manual persuasion believe they are better than a box of tansistors and chips. Unfortunately, blow to the ego, I know, they're not.

Jeroen

You present a specious argument. Auto boxes are designed to function in all driving conditions and not optimized for all conditions. Most of them will perform optimally only in a narrow set of conditions. A skilled driver with a manual will still beat the best autos overall.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by JediKnight

You present a specious argument. Auto boxes are designed to function in all driving conditions and not optimized for all conditions. Most of them will perform optimally only in a narrow set of conditions. A skilled driver with a manual will still beat the best autos overall.

I think you under rate by a large margin how autoboxes are optmized and overrate by a vast margin the skill sets of 99.9% of the drivers. I know, for many a big ego things, but the brutal truth is that a box of clever electronics these days is able to outperform just about every human function, except for a few exceptions. And they will do it every single time, no matter how long, day and night, any day of the week. Totally and utterly consistent. Show me a human that has those qualities and can perform consistently and I ll show you a cyborg.

Enjoy.

Jeroen

[krichared]

Originally Posted by Jeroen

I think you under rate by a large margin how autoboxes are optmized and overrate by a vast margin the skill sets of 99.9% of the drivers. I know, for many a big ego things, but the brutal truth is that a box of clever electronics these days is able to outperform just about every human function, except for a few exceptions. And they will do it every single time, no matter how long, day and night, any day of the week. Totally and utterly consistent. Show me a human that has those qualities and can perform consistently and I ll show you a cyborg.

Enjoy.

Jeroen

Agree with Jeroen, the auto boxes coupled with the new electronics do a better job consistently than a human driver. Not all of us have the skill of a race car driver to handle our cars. And added is that our cars are built to meet the demands of a very broad spectrum so unless we choose to build our own cars to perfection, we have to settle with what the car makers have to offer. the torque converters, CVTs, DSGs and now AMTs.

[amtak]

I am curious to know about the man, who planted this idea in the minds of our Indian automobile makers. I am sure, that this gentleman is laughing, all the way to the bank.

[Jeroen]

Originally Posted by amtak

I am curious to know about the man, who planted this idea in the minds of our Indian automobile makers. I am sure, that this gentleman is laughing, all the way to the bank.

Nothing wrong with that, bully for him. Also if the man/woman who buys these cars are happy with it, like the way it shifts, believes it gets better FE everybody is happy!

Great aint it?

Jeroen

[kaushik51094]

Originally Posted by Rajeevraj

[*]I went to see the Celerio, was observing people looking at the car. One person was saying 'no clutch!!' and had this expression

Same thing happened when i went for the test drive of celerio. The SA pointed out that the celerio doesn't have a clutch for atleast 15 times in the short span i spent with their TD car. I was like "Oh ya, big deal" but my uncle who accompanied me was amused with it. One TD, and i vouched never to settle for an AMT.

The points you highlighted are indeed the pros of AMTs, but in my opinion, for driving enthusiasts (or atleast me for that matter), stick shifters are the best. Nothing gives a feel of manually shifting gears. Though AMTs do provide a manual mode, the absence of clutch makes it boring. For lazy people who don't like to change gears, it's a boon. But, for driving enthusiasts, manual gearbox makes the day.

If i ever buy a celerio (why would i? There's a swift zxi at home ), i would get the zxi version rather than the vxi amt. Hope many here in this forum will accept my views.

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by amtak

I am curious to know about the man, who planted this idea in the minds of our Indian automobile makers.

Anyone know Magnet Marelli's corporate structure in India?

Regards
Sutripta

[Mpower]

Originally Posted by Warwithwheels

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ARAI numbers are from highway driving so an AT will do as good as a MT. In the CVTs case, it can use a super tall ratio something like a 7th gear in a MT.

Real life driving at stop and go speeds is a whole another matter