[vinjosep]

Originally Posted by KreativeGeek

Why not change the Tata logo for passenger cars to give it more modern look?, especially when cab cars, trucks and tempo all share same logo in today's times it can make a lot of difference and it's good that the future models would not be based on Indica platform

Sorry, that would not do the company any good other than throw valuable money down the drain (for marketing and creating a brand awareness around the new logo), with very limited ROI. Look at Nexa and Datsun, if you wish to have examples. If Toyota and Hyundai can sell all segments under one roof/ logo, it should work for others too.

The focus must & should be about creating a USP around quality products oozing VFM quotient coupled with excellent A.S.S. This is what mass market in India is all about.

At the moment the problem with TML in the passenger car segment, is that the new good products lack long term reliability (perception? maybe). Until this is fixed, changing the logo, creating a "new" brand etc is of no use. In fact the kind of brand recall Tata has is phenomenal, especially in non-metros which is the target demographics for a mass market OEM. That they are not able to capitalize on the same is the sad part. Even sadder would be if they continue to tarnish the image by doling out sub-standard products.

IMO "Reliable.Affordable.Feature-rich" is what every product from Tata should be about. And there are no shortcuts, its a long haul and TML should be in it for the long haul as well. If not, they are better off by focusing only on JLR.

If Mr. Mistry is focusing on the quality aspect, then I would say he is on the right path. Talent and technology was never a problem for the group. They have some of the best tech setups in the country. Its the part from production till the after sales that needs urgent attention with strong underline on the quality aspect.

[WorkingGuru]

If he just can bring in some professionalism, it'll be a quite a big leap from where they are now.

The problem is very simple, the service/upkeep personnel don't seem to care a damn about the sales or the company's reputation, they just seem to care for the ASC's set target revenue. Obviously then, the service advisor's will do whatever it takes to reach there.

Infact Tata Motors has recently increased the servicing & spare part prices sharply by almost 40% & quite possibly, to keep ASC's happy.

But, does this help improve the Service ? It'd be a LONG shot to say that it indirectly does.

What about the improvements on the customer experience front ? Zilch immediate effect.

Even good part quality may help in product longevity, but till then it'll remain a gamble in the mind of prospective customers. Tata Motors will first have to earn the trust & respect from customers, just like how Toyota did.

Reading the September 2015 sales thread, members here have just mentioned it 4-5 times in the 6-page thread till date, that too with just 1 or 2 liners. Compare this to earlier years when members actively & passionately discussed TATA.

Anyway, who am I to write-off Tata Motors, lets see.

[Captain Haddock]

Originally Posted by WorkingGuru

If he just can bring in some professionalism, it'll be a quite a big leap from where they are now.

The problem is very simple, the service/upkeep personnel don't seem to care a damn about the sales or the company's reputation, they just seem to care for the ASC's set target revenue. Obviously then, the service advisor's will do whatever it takes to reach there.

Infact Tata Motors has recently increased the servicing & spare part prices sharply by almost 40% & quite possibly, to keep ASC's happy.

But, does this help improve the Service ? It'd be a LONG shot to say that it indirectly does.

What about the improvements on the customer experience front ? Zilch immediate effect.

Even good part quality may help in product longevity, but till then it'll remain a gamble in the mind of prospective customers. Tata Motors will first have to earn the trust & respect from customers, just like how Toyota did.

Reading the September 2015 sales thread, members here have just mentioned it 4-5 times in the 6-page thread till date, that too with just 1 or 2 liners. Compare this to earlier years when members actively & passionately discussed TATA.

Anyway, who am I to write-off Tata Motors, lets see.

Their situation is not that bleak. People still see tata as a value for money brand. Cars from tata are not mechanically bad but they lack the fineness of brands from europe. Tata is trusted for what they offer.

Sound body structure(Exception of nano) most tatas have long hoods compared to others and metal used is industry benchmark. Their Safari and aria are the safest cars the ordinary Indian can even dream off.

Good engine(in house)-Most are workhorses and will last very long.

Service-Some glitches but much better than foreign brands.

Spares are much cheaper than most brands.Owning a Fiat or VW hatch will cost you more than tata's flagship model. I don't think this price difference makes tata any less reliable.

Tatas are easily maintainable even in rural areas, they are robust cars and not really a pocket burning brand in general.

Yes, some ultra rich kid born with a silver spoon may argue VWs and Fiats are epitomes of automobile ingenuity despite the financial attrition such cars cause. Most financially concerned people will never bet on these foreign brands fearing the high cost of ownership. But we are lucky to have Indian firms like Maruti,tata and mahindra who keep costs down and this forces even foreign players to reduce ownership costs.

[WorkingGuru]

Originally Posted by Captain Haddock

...Tata is trusted for what they offer...

Really? Lets say sales numbers can't be completely relied on to judge this, but safe to assume half the people (including Taxi Market) not choosing Tata (if at all shortlisted), don't trust Tata for what they offer.

Sound body structure(Exception of nano) most tatas have long hoods compared to others and metal used is industry benchmark. Their Safari and aria are the safest cars the ordinary Indian can even dream off.

While there are members who'll ridicule reliance to Sheet-metal-thickness to assess safety, I'll not jump to that, I'll almost* agree that, comparatively, they're significantly structurally safer.

*Almost : Because no matter what you say, simply having LONG bonnet hoods does NOT qualify to declare they're safe.

Good engine(in house)-Most are workhorses and will last very long.

OK, major engines (sales numbers) from 7/9 of Tata Motors' products:

Bolt, Vista, Manza & Zest : 1.3mjd, common rail diesel engines from FIAT.
20+ cars in the industry use this engine. No question of reliability.

Bolt & Zest : 1.2 Revotron (Xeta based)
Yet to prove itself.

Aria, Safari(Storme) : 2.2l common rail diesel engines.
A detailed reading of their respective threads will give an insight into the issues the engine may throw up.

Nano:
Too few numbers. Yet, I'll agree its reliable. (though if you search, you'll find reports of Ignition Coils having failed infairly less used cars)

EoD don't we want a good overall product ? What'll we do with a reliable engine if the car bolted on to it pops up one issue after another ? or simply isn't good enough with the way its built.

(IMO) Very same reason people choose the Ciaz even with a puny 1.3L mjd.

Service-Some glitches but much better than foreign brands.

"Some service glitches" lol come-on, the incidents narrated not long ago by veterans members of their experience of the horrendous service & pathetic attitude of service advisors draws a decently clear picture of what its like to be a Tata customer.

Spares are much cheaper than most brands...Tatas are easily maintainable even in rural areas, they are robust cars and not really a pocket burning brand in general.

Gone are those days my friend, they've increased prices.

Owning a Fiat or VW hatch will cost you more than tata's flagship model. I don't think this price difference makes tata any less reliable.

I own a FIAT and its 15-20% or max 35% higher.

Yes, some ultra rich kid born with a silver spoon may argue VWs and Fiats are epitomes of automobile ingenuity despite the financial attrition such cars cause. Most financially concerned people will never bet on these foreign brands fearing the high cost of ownership.

Challenge : Not even back to back test drives, just Sit in a FIAT & a Zest. You'll see the difference.

Then test drive them and you'll again see the difference. The sense of occasion, the steering feedback, the sense of being safely cocooned that my FIAT gives me is immense. Zest is NOWHERE close to that.

And I'm pretty financially conservative, not only prudent, full-on "conservative".

VW, agreed. Also even to my understanding its always been a crook of a company.

But we are lucky to have Indian firms like Maruti,tata and mahindra who keep costs down and this forces even foreign players to reduce ownership costs.

Maruti, Indian ? Nope.

Also, Maruti, my dear, a year or so back, forced, its 1.3mjd owners to ONLY use Synthetic oil, or their warranty goes void. Look it up in the threads.

Anyway, not to undermine the brand, my only concern is that one definitely needs to take serious look into how much he/she may need to bear with, during the ownership of a Tata product.

Warm Regards.

[Captain Haddock]

Originally Posted by WorkingGuru

Really? Lets say sales numbers can't be completely relied on to judge this, but safe to assume half the people (including Taxi Market) not choosing Tata (if at all shortlisted), don't trust Tata for what they offer.


"Some service glitches" lol come-on, the incidents narrated not long ago by veterans members of their experience of the horrendous service & pathetic attitude of service advisors draws a decently clear picture of what its like to be a Tata customer.

Gone are those days my friend, they've increased prices.

I own a FIAT and its 15-20% or max 35% higher.

Challenge : Not even back to back test drives, just Sit in a FIAT & a Zest. You'll see the difference.

Then test drive them and you'll again see the difference. The sense of occasion, the steering feedback, the sense of being safely cocooned that my FIAT gives me is immense. Zest is NOWHERE close to that.

Anyway, not to undermine the brand, my only concern is that one definitely needs to take serious look into how much he/she may need to bear with, during the ownership of a Tata product.

.

I agree that a Fiat handles better but the service costs will mount up as time goes by and fiat's service network is not something they can be proud of.

Tata's service though erratic at times is widespread in rural areas and these cars can be serviced at local garages as a last resort. Foreign brands falls behind in number of service centers.They have poor rural penetration.

I will not agree that TATA cars are untrustworthy. I used their first car,A car TELCO produced with no prior experience in passenger car segment . It was rated as a flop by many auto pandits of that era but it served me well and was safe as a tank. I could find genuine parts for that car till I sold it in 2010. Tata seldom disowns it's vehicles. Cars from tata do not fail mechanically easily though they have a list of nagging minor issues.

I still stick to my guns,brands like fiat and vw have huge operational costs. A VW AC compressor replacement costs above 1.5 lakhs. Such prices are huge. Even if Tata hikes spare parts price by 100% prices will be still lower.

Most Indians who drive daily to work are concerned about lower cost of ownership than outright performance or handling.

P.S-Not degrading VW or Fiat or any one who owns them.They are fantastic to drive but old sea dogs like me can only dream of owning such cars.

[apachelongbow]

I believe Tata is heading in the right direction. Their focus of quality and fit and finish is correct and in the long term they will reap benefits. As it is the Zest, Bolt, Nano and the Storme have proved to be niggle free and people don't really talk about atrocious quality or bad fit and finish anymore. Yes they have to get their pre and post sales and service act together before the common man will intentionally walk into a Tata showroom to buy a product.
Given the new launches starting with the Hexa and continuing with the revised Storme/Safari and the smaller SUV, if Tata manage a Zest like pricing and quality they will see an upsurge in sales.

[Captain Haddock]

Just went through this thread extensively. I am a relatively new user here. I would appreciate if clarifications are provided by esteemed members of this forum.

Did not TATA introduce India's first usable personal diesel cars?Estate and sierra were the best cars of the 90s. Estate was the only big car I owned. It was the best car 20 years back

Was't the indica a corner stone for the industry?.It was imported to UK as the city rover.In indica we had a comfortable,safe and spacious car.

Was't the humble safari an epitome of comfort and safety and still posing a threat to even the mighty pajero in off road performance.?

Did not tata make a great city car in the nano for an unbelievable price? Great car experts like Jay Leno commented positively on it. Nano project had humanitarian grounds as Ratan Tata wanted to replace family scooters with a car,a much safer option

Did not tata introduce great engines like Revetron which offers maximum torque at the lowest revs?

In a given segment are not tata cars having cheapest spares ?

Do brands like VW and Fiat which cost a bomb to maintain really worth it or is it our colonial hangover ? Even noted car expert Jeremy Clarkson has expressed serious doubts regarding VW's quality and ethics.

I am not promoting Tata. But I respect them for what they have achieved. They have their flaws but is not Tata a reasonable brand to buy if somebody finds their cars meeting their requirements.

Please note that I am not a technical expert and was only asking clarifications for the thoughts that came to my mind when I read this thread. Forgive me if I am not posting it correctly.

[sairamboko]

I recently booked a tata nano genx. The experience at concorde motors was really good this time. The showroom in charge was very friendly and he said that the management has noticed the customers feedback and they are working on it to improve the customer experience. I definitely see a huge improvement in the dealers end, especially concorde motors. I am in the process of moving from Hyderabad to Bangalore. Over the phone, I talked to the dealer and they arranged me a test drive at my hyderabad home. I made my booking online and I visited the showroom only after 2 weeks. The ambience of the showroom was good. Staff were polite and courteous. I was offered coffee. All this is in line with the experience one would get at Maruti. Also the showroom in charge took me to the service centre and gave a tour of it. Overall it was a pleasant experience. We have a general perception in our minds that Tata motors means a bad experience and even I had it too. I urge everyone to visit Tata Motors if you are in the process of buying a new car and decide.

[2000rpm]

I would not personally rate Fiat over a Tata in any aspect. Fiats are a nightmare to maintain in India. Their attitude towards customers is pathetic and though Tata may seem like a SBI Bank Experience, will get the job done.

Tata needs to get their design language revamped. They need to let go of the Vista / Manza frame. Bolt looks not very much different from a Vista.

A lil Fluidic sparkle ie definitely needed

[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by 2000rpm

...Fiats are a nightmare to maintain in India. Their attitude towards customers is pathetic and though Tata may seem like a SBI Bank Experience, will get the job done....

This could be a dealer / A$$ specific issue.

I know of two cases where the experience was good. One in Cochin & second, Bangalore. Warranty replacements are a piece of cake & no questions asked.

[S.MJet]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

This could be a dealer / A$$ specific issue....Warranty replacements are a piece of cake & no questions asked.

I am owning Fiat for last 3.5 years, never had any issue with service or spare availability, warranty replacements are prompt & know many who are happy with Fiat. Agree service experience was/is not always consistent leading to such perception about the brand.

As for Tata Motors, they are on the right track, it will take some time to get the right things implemented & a lot more time for perception to change, hope thy continue with these efforts

[avira_tk]

Originally Posted by Captain Haddock

Just went through this thread extensively. I am a relatively new user here. I would appreciate if clarifications are provided by esteemed members of this forum.
Did not TATA introduce India's first usable personal diesel cars?Estate and sierra were the best cars of the 90s. Estate was the only big car I owned. It was the best car 20 years back

The best cars twenty years ago were those that were made for a closed market where the options included the ambassador, padmini and contessa, not the benchmark for today's options. Plenty of diesel cars were around back then, Tata probably made people believe that diesel would get no better than a truck engine. The estate and Sierra were expensive cars, Tata hasn't been able to capture that kind of customer for too long.

Was't the indica a corner stone for the industry?.It was imported to UK as the city rover.In indica we had a comfortable,safe and spacious car.

It was a success because it was a diesel hatch which was quite spacious, the less said about the Rover connection, the better. The city Rover as it was called was at the receiving end of more ridicule than the Skodas of those times.

Was't the humble safari an epitome of comfort and safety and still posing a threat to even the mighty pajero in off road performance.?

The Safari is noisy and crude, does it have any safety certifications? It doesn't threaten the outlander for off road prowess, the Pajero is simply leagues ahead and always has been.

Did not tata make a great city car in the nano for an unbelievable price? Great car experts like Jay Leno commented positively on it. Nano project had humanitarian grounds as Ratan Tata wanted to replace family scooters with a car,a much safer option

It started off as a business venture to get the people fence sitting on whether to buy an 800 or not. Jay Leno's praise doesn't mean anything in this context. The humanitarian hogwash was invented as part of the marketing. The unbelievable price that you had to pay to get something not too far from a golf cart but nowhere near as refined as an 800 had customer running away as soon as they heard the details. The newer better ones aren't marketed as bike replacements but urban conveyance - third or fourth car for the rich.

Did not tata introduce great engines like Revetron which offers maximum torque at the lowest revs?

People buy Tata for low ownership/running costs, high torque petrols are the last things they'll buy.

In a given segment are not tata cars having cheapest spares ?

Not quite, Honda takes the cake in that department, not to mention you rarely need the parts.

Do brands like VW and Fiat which cost a bomb to maintain really worth it or is it our colonial hangover ? Even noted car expert Jeremy Clarkson has expressed serious doubts regarding VW's quality and ethics. ?

The Italians and Germans never ruled us, so the colonial hangover bit can be safely ignored, Tata however has a long connection with Benz, that is why the Estate looked like the Eclass estate.
I've had a Fiat for 88k kms over the last 4.5 years, I have not been saddled with expensive maintenance, do you have any bills to prove this? The only really expensive bits were for body work, Tata cars are just expensive in this department. VW and Tata are not in the same league, even with the mmissions scandal, people have expressed serious concerns regarding Jeremy Clarkson's state of mind, his opinion on other people means nothing.

I am not promoting Tata. But I respect them for what they have achieved. They have their flaws but is not Tata a reasonable brand to buy if somebody finds their cars meeting their requirements.

Please note that I am not a technical expert and was only asking clarifications for the thoughts that came to my mind when I read this thread. Forgive me if I am not posting it correctly.

The first car we bought from a showroom was a Tata Sumo, served us well for 86k kms in 2 years 5 months, suffered only a blown fuse and averaged 100km running a day. We haven't bought a Tata product since then, no one in the extended family has either. The problem is image and Tata hasn't done anything about it.

[Captain Haddock]

Originally Posted by avira_tk

The best cars twenty years ago were those that were made for a closed market where the options included the ambassador, padmini and contessa, not the benchmark for today's options. Plenty of diesel cars were around back then, Tata probably made people believe that diesel would get no better than a truck engine. The estate and Sierra were expensive cars, Tata hasn't been able to capture that kind of customer for too long.

Yes the estate was a luxury car back in its hay day. If my memory is correct cost was around 6 lakhs in 1994. The estate had truck like engine but was the safest car one could buy then,raw metal tank it was. I remember how it took out volumes of metal from a ford fiesta in a sideswipe. The metal used was first grade unlike today's wafer thin hatches. Even if we put 10 airbags in a punto or polo it will never be safe as that mammoth. Driving it was so much safer,real metal and a huge engine protected the occupants from hazards.

I agree, it was not that reliable or smooth. But the worst thing that could happen is getting stranded in the middle of nowhere not returning in caskets.

Originally Posted by avira_tk

It was a success because it was a diesel hatch which was quite spacious, the less said about the Rover connection, the better. The city Rover as it was called was at the receiving end of more ridicule than the Skodas of those times.

University of southampton did a london-delhi trip in it and concluded it was a very sturdy and robust car.

Originally Posted by avira_tk

The Safari is noisy and crude, does it have any safety certifications? It doesn't threaten the outlander for off road prowess, the Pajero is simply leagues ahead and always has been.

Safari is refined enough for it's segment. It is a safe vehicle,it's a 2.5 ton truck.Just like the estate it's very safe thanks to huge mass and higher gauge of metal used. Pajero is a 25 lakh suv if safari can do half of what the pajero does safari is a good car in my books.

Originally Posted by avira_tk

It started off as a business venture to get the people fence sitting on whether to buy an 800 or not. Jay Leno's praise doesn't mean anything in this context. The humanitarian hogwash was invented as part of the marketing. The unbelievable price that you had to pay to get something not too far from a golf cart but nowhere near as refined as an 800 had customer running away as soon as they heard the details. The newer better ones aren't marketed as bike replacements but urban conveyance - third or fourth car for the rich.

Nano is a practical city car and is a good replacement for bikes.It was a design appreciated by leading auto geeks like Leno. Why do you still rate the nano as an utter failure ? The nano has many advantages like space,higher seating position,fuel economy over 800.Yes the engine is harsh and safety is an issue,but it is a reasonable city car,far from an utter failure.

Originally Posted by avira_tk

People buy Tata for low ownership/running costs, high torque petrols are the last things they'll buy.

Bolt's revetron trumps the segment. 140 Nm is segment leading. VW's Tsi GT is not in the same segment as that of the bolt.An Indian made petrol engine stealing the thunder from the legends like Ivtec of honda is a matter of pride for Indians.
(No offense intended against honda or their owners. Just expressing joy over Tata's achievement).

Originally Posted by avira_tk

Not quite, Honda takes the cake in that department, not to mention you rarely need the parts.

Cannot comment on honda as I have never owned a honda. I concur that honda's parts usually last longer.

Originally Posted by avira_tk

The Italians and Germans never ruled us, so the colonial hangover bit can be safely ignored, Tata however has a long connection with Benz, that is why the Estate looked like the Eclass estate.

I've had a Fiat for 88k kms over the last 4.5 years, I have not been saddled with expensive maintenance, do you have any bills to prove this? The only really expensive bits were for body work, Tata cars are just expensive in this department. VW and Tata are not in the same league, even with the mmissions scandal, people have expressed serious concerns regarding Jeremy Clarkson's state of mind, his opinion on other people means nothing.

I take your word for fiat. I have heard about them being expensive but as a fellow member of this forum I put my trust in you.

Spares for VW is so huge that owning one is a nightmare for average Indians. I just talked to a friend,his vento's ac compressor needed replacement and the cost was over 1.5 lakhs. Such costs are unjustified. VW does not make it's cars with solid gold.

Originally Posted by avira_tk

The first car we bought from a showroom was a Tata Sumo, served us well for 86k kms in 2 years 5 months, suffered only a blown fuse and averaged 100km running a day. We haven't bought a Tata product since then, no one in the extended family has either. The problem is image and Tata hasn't done anything about it.

The sumo served you well it seems, then why should't you trust Tata ?

I once again say that brands like VW are brilliant to drive but they can bankrupt the average Indian. Most of us who work hard and has a family to feed with a limited income can live with a slightly sluggish but sturdy tata rather than throwing our hard earned money to the coffers of some automaker.

[Mad Max]

Originally Posted by Captain Haddock

The metal used was first grade unlike today's wafer thin hatches. Even if we put 10 airbags in a punto or polo it will never be safe as that mammoth. Driving it was so much safer,real metal and a huge engine protected the occupants from hazards.

Blistering Barnacles, Captain! That isn't true at all!

The laws of physics can't be defeated by sheer metal strength or by extending the engine bay. Damage to a vehicle is not equivalent to the safety of its passengers. Crumple zones, reinforcement of specific areas, passive and active safety systems defeat sheer metal strength any day. The car may look worse for the wear but the occupants in a car with crumple zones and airbags have a much higher possibility of staying alive than a car that's depending on its metal quality and engine bay length.

Yes, it does give a feeling of assurance (I have a 63 Amby a.k.a. The Tank) but without basic safety measures that have been developed now, it's a death trap on four wheels if I cross certain speeds.

[krsna777]

It is very obvious that Tata car has an image of cab car due to Indica. People stopped buying indica for the same reason. I don't understand their logic in using the same design for all of their cars. They must have had a similar design for 15 odd cars. Sadly it is the case even with zest, bolt.