[PSM_360]

Originally Posted by puneetakhouri

Back in those days there were a lot of people who would try to sell of their M1000 guised as an Esteem by putting external stickers and monograms. So I asked dad how did they used to distinguish them, and the first thing he said was that they would open the bonnet and check the position of the distributor, M1000 has the distributor sitting high up whereas it sits lower in the Esteem.

Thanks for reminding

We got our 1994 M1000 from a Delhi dealer in 1997. It had a Maruti Suzuki badge on the left and an Esteem badge on right. We did not care about the badges as we knew that it is a 1000 by looking into the RC. It had an Esteem center console to keep the audio cassettes and an in-built glass holder too. The rear had white indicator lens rear tail lamps of type-2 esteem.

Till last decade we all in the family used to call it an Esteem but my dad would always call it a 1000. I used to think that Esteem came in 2 engines capacities and we had the smaller one, otherwise, it is an Esteem . Later, my father briefed me about certain differences between the two cars, now I call it a 1000. Once repainted, I am not going to put Esteem badge. The Center console is already removed .

[chiranjitp]

Sorry if I wasn't clear in my previous posts, I never wanted to discuss which engine in which car was faster. I only wanted to prove that the M1000 Auto journos drove in 1989 had a F10A engine only, not a G13B engine.

The photos of the engine bay of the test car, of bhpian the mole's 92 M1000 & of bhpian sohanbala's 1995 Esteem make this point clear.

I only talked about the performance figures because of the fact that whatever they drove in 1989 was way off the mark of Esteem's (G13B carb) figures. They were impressed with the performance of the M1000 going by the report, even then the numbers posted by that car were way off the mark that would be set by the Esteem (G13B carb) in 1994.

Originally Posted by vivekgk

Thanks for posting the detailed reports and bringing clarity to the discussion.

I was also trying to track down these magazines and reports. In fact I'm still looking for that report that had mentioned the engine swap theory.

I've gone through the reports, and noted the following points:

• It is mentioned clearly that they were testing a secret prototype that had come to India the month before.
• The F10A in the 1000 makes slightly more power and slightly less torque than the Gypsy version.
• He notes that on paper, these figures do not seem impressive and that the power to weight ratio is lower than even the M800.
• IT was the quickest car they had ever tested, even beating the 88bhp Contessa Classic with a better power to weight ratio!
• Acceleration and performance is termed as 'invigorating', 'rapid' and 'terrific', due to the ideal gearing.

Yes, from the report it is clear that the M1000 that they drove was Japanese (CKD most likely). It could be possible that car was running on a more aggressive/different tune compared to what we ended up getting. This theory could be true.

Even for M800, people always found the cars equipped with Japanese Mikuni carburetor performed slightly better compared to the cars equipped with made in India carburetor.

Also consider that the Original 1993 Zen was accepted to be a nippy car for its time. At launch, it had a 50bhp G10B and weighed 730kg, giving it a power to weight ratio of 68.5 bhp/ton, still a lot better than the M1000.

Since you have brought up the topic of Zen, let me give my point about how a Zen drove. I have owned 2 of these, first a 98 Zen carb, then later a 01 Zen MPFi.

The Zen carb was tested by ACI to do the 0-100 dash in 16.30 seconds, which is a good enough time. Though in reality the Zen carb had horrible low end torque, in city traffic one would need to constantly downshift to keep the engine on the boil. Move up the rev range, the Zen moves briskly, the power deficient w.r.t Zen MPI isn't noticeable high up the revv range (Zen mpi has 10bhp more, 60bhp vs 50 bhp). The top end is also good, the G10B carb likes to be revved, an enthusiasts motor indeed. After getting past the weak low end, Zen carb feels fast enough & can easily keep up with many modern cars.

The driving characteristics of Zen carb was quite opposite to most other cars from that era, downshifting 1/2 gears to accelerate quickly was an alien concept to most drivers. I learnt driving in a M800 & a Omni, in those cars one would one want to move up the gears as quickly as possible (without lugging the engine). There was no concept of dropping down a gear or two to make a quick overtake. Those engines simply didn't have any top end performance to talk about.

The Zen MPFi on the other hand had good low end torque (though not as much as say a F10D), one didn't need to constantly downshift to keep the car moving in flowing traffic. Even that engine loved to be revved, with the motor pulling cleaning in the high rev range. The Zen MPFi did 0-100kmph in 14.68 as per ACI. I replaced my Zen MPFi with a Swift G13B.

Zen timing figures courtesy ACI:

Originally Posted by PSM_360

The biggest difference between M1000 and carb esteems is the engine bay/powertrain. They are quite different, be it engine, gearbox, flywheel, clutch set, carburettor, etc. Well, recently fitted replaced the carb with a Zen carb, it fits but has some extra vacuum lines which I have blocked. Gearbox bell-housing is different to that of an Esteem/Zen.

Even the fueling system was different/advanced in the Zen/Esteem. These cars even in carburetor avatar got an electronic fuel pump (which was placed in the fuel tank), whereas the likes of M800, Omni, M1000 got a mechanical fuel pump (which was placed near the carburetor). I am not entirely sure about the technical differences, but the biggest difference to the end user was that a Zen, Esteem carb would start in one crank (cold start). My Omni on the other hand, especially if left idle for 15-20 days would need 3-4 cranks before the engine would fire up. The fuel line would dry up partially & since there is no actual pump to pump fuel from the tank, it would take some time to fire up.

Even the ignition system was different & more advanced in the G series engine. The distributor on the F series engines would need periodic replacement of the distributor breaker point, as per my 99 Omni's user manual they need replacement every 20k km. Fiddling with the distributor means doing the Ignition timing once again.

In short, the G series engines were more advanced compared to the F series engines in carburetor guise, & generally needed less maintenance.

[landcruiser123]

Back when Maruti Esteem was a revolutionary luxury car with 65 bhp. I was probably too young at this time, but I'm sure many BHPians can relate to this:

Note: There's probably no problem with your computer/internet connection. A few parts of the video have a black screen with no audio.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT8V4EoJ8d8

[vivekgk]

Originally Posted by chiranjitp

Sorry if I wasn't clear in my previous posts, I never wanted to discuss which engine in which car was faster. I only wanted to prove that the M1000 Auto journos drove in 1989 had a F10A engine only, not a G13B engine.

The photos of the engine bay of the test car, of bhpian the mole's 92 M1000 & of bhpian sohanbala's 1995 Esteem make this point clear.

Of course, the engine in the pictures in the article is quite definitely the F10A. Which is why the performance disparity with the production variants came as such a shock, even to the press.

Originally Posted by chiranjitp

I only talked about the performance figures because of the fact that whatever they drove in 1989 was way off the mark of Esteem's (G13B carb) figures. They were impressed with the performance of the M1000 going by the report, even then the numbers posted by that car were way off the mark that would be set by the Esteem (G13B carb) in 1994.

By the time the Esteem was launched, the G13A/BA equipped Esteem/Cultus had been under production in the Global market for 5 years, which is almost a full lifecycle, and I'm sure that numerous production improvements were made by then, over the G13A, over and above the 6 bhp power increase.

Originally Posted by chiranjitp

Yes, from the report it is clear that the M1000 that they drove was Japanese (CKD most likely). It could be possible that car was running on a more aggressive/different tune compared to what we ended up getting. This theory could be true.

Another noteworthy thing is the complete lack of any badging in the media car, for variant or for brand.

Also remember that the imported Isuzu motor in the Contessa used to be capable of 88 bhp, which dropped to 75bhp when they started making it in India under HM.

Originally Posted by chiranjitp

The driving characteristics of Zen carb was quite opposite to most other cars from that era, downshifting 1/2 gears to accelerate quickly was an alien concept to most drivers. I learnt driving in a M800 & a Omni, in those cars one would one want to move up the gears as quickly as possible (without lugging the engine). There was no concept of dropping down a gear or two to make a quick overtake. Those engines simply didn't have any top end performance to talk about.

...

In short, the G series engines were more advanced compared to the F series engines in carburetor guise, & generally needed less maintenance.

F8D made just about 38 bhp initially, but it was powerful enough as the cars were so light. We had a '98 800 STD, which I learnt to drive on. Compared to our '85 Padmini it replaced, the 800 was silent, refined, and reliable, but too light. I was taught early on by my Dad that it was better for the engine to drop a gear, rather than lug it. He hated to hear the knocking sound. But Dad never took our 800 to 80-90 the way he did with the Padmini, preferring to stay below 80 at all times.

What I remember about the light, all aluminium G-Series was that it was so much more fun. My Aunt had a carb Zen, and what I remember is that compared to our 800, it was so eager to rev, and so smooth. My cousin and I used to rev the nuts off it whenever we could get our hands on it. As it was mostly driven in the twisties in and around Idukki, Kerala, I never really had a chance to evaluate its city behaviour, but as I said, I was used to revving up the engine, and the Zen was totally game for all the thrashing my cousin and I handed out to it... They too replaced it with a black Swift when it came out, and a 5 Speed 800 was also added to their garage for my lucky cousin.

The big change that came to the MPFi versions was the much improved top end, thanks to the 4 valve head. I remember that with the 5 speed box, the 800 was transformed into such a pocket rocket, and I was sad that they stopped it. Our 800 was barely a few months old when they launched the FI versions, and we felt cheated, especially since the EX with the improved suspension was about the same price we paid for our 800.

I think the later model F engines did come with electric fuel pumps. I think our 800 had it. There was a whirring sound when you turned on the ignition, that was the electric pump priming. Thanks for a great post!!

Originally Posted by Slowjet

My Indica Turbo could easily keep pace with Maruti Zen / Esteem / 1000....Now I know the reason why that was the case

The Indigo/Indica's 475 Turbodiesel totally changed the game when it was launched. The Indigo TDI was Overdrive's top pick among all the sedans, even over the Esteem, for it's winning combination of space, refinement and power, in the pre-common rail era.

[vivekgk]

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

Back when Maruti Esteem was a revolutionary luxury car with 65 bhp. I was probably too young at this time, but I'm sure many BHPians can relate to this:

Note: There's probably no problem with your computer/internet connection. A few parts of the video have a black screen with no audio.
https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=FT8V4EoJ8d8

Thanks for this excellent video. It was a fun flashback, and we got to see this "forgotten gem" by DC..



How I wish I could unsee it now, I had forgotten about it's existence. For those not in the know, this is DC's modern take on the Mahindra Classic/CJ340.

I think this is what Mahindra has based it's new ROXOR on.

[evilmessiah]

Originally Posted by chiranjitp

I am attaching the whole article here (with due credit to DBhpian anjan_c2007)

Esteem carb & Esteem MPFi performance figures courtesy ACI:

Hey, thanks for attaching this article! This sent me down the memory lane. I remember reading some article on Autocar (I believe) which had a nice comparison between the MPFI Esteem, Accent, Opel Corsa, Ford Ikon and Fiat Sienna (I think). I still remember the Esteem MPFI holding up very well in that comparo in terms of performance.


I had tried searching for this magazine copy far and wide, but I wasn't able to find it. I think this magazine was issued in the 2002-2003 time period.

I would be eternally grateful if any bhpians have a copy of this mag and can post the article here.

[AntPaul]

I have driven 1998 M800 F8 carb and an MPFI G13B in esteem extensively. The esteem is a dud in low end rpm. Its acceptable post 2K rpm. Its insane when you put the put down in first and second gears and you approach the top end. The tall first and second gear in esteem adds to its poor torque on wheels in 1st and 2nd gear in city, results in poor tractability. First gear and clutch slip for every speed breaker. It is a good highway cruiser. 80kmph @2000 rpm and 120kmph@3000 rpm in 5th. Dynamics is not confidence inspiring though.

With the 800s, you have to guess the rpm you are at. But the low-end pull is phenomenal. Mid range is also good. But it feels like the engine does not rev too high and there is no top-end rpm band (5k-6k+). Wonder what the max rpm is, my guess is ~5500. The 800 has extremely short gear ratio for first and feels really peppy in first 3 gears. Even the present day alto 800 is a really peppy car with excellent gear ratios.

To put things into perspective, Its really easy for 800's 145mm wide front wheels to break traction even on tarmac in first gear with slightly aggressive clutch release. But I have never been able to do that on the esteems 175mm front wheels any time. It should be possible with high rpm lot with a lot of clutch slip.

[landcruiser123]

A very informative video on why the Tata Nano was not the success people and the media thought it would be:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpSoejz8CbI

[GTO]

Originally Posted by landcruiser123

A very informative video on why the Tata Nano was not the success people and the media thought it would be

Sharing my take on why the Tata Nano failed:

Originally Posted by GTO

The euphoria surrounding the Nano’s launch was so strong that everyone (environmentalists included) expected our streets to be filled with 1 lakh rupee Tatas everywhere. Unfortunately, that’s not how the situation panned out. The market’s response has been lukewarm at best. While the average monthly sales have been 5,756 units of the year thus far, in November 2010, the car had hit an inexplicably low 500 odd shipments. So why did the Nano not rack up 20,000 – 30,000 sales a month as expected? The answer greatly varies depending on who you are listening to, but if you ask me, there are 5 fundamental reasons:

1. Poor targeting: Let's face it, a large number of 2 wheeler owners – out of choice – don’t want to upgrade to a car. Petrol is too expensive (commuter bikes are 5 - 6 times as fuel efficient as a Nano) while a large % of motorcycle owners don’t even know how to drive. That probably explains why a majority of bookings (from the 1st round) were for the top-end LX variant.

2. It’s simply too unconventional: The Indian market, especially first-timer buyers, are a conservative lot. In that, they are extremely risk averse. The Nano is too “different” and “unconventional” for the mass market tastes. Factors like the engine placed at the back, a hatch that doesn’t open, battery under the front seat, 3-bolt wheels, differently sized front & rear tyres, lack of a glovebox et al make the Nano too different a concept for the junta. Many, including some owners, refer to the car as a toy.

3. The image of the “cheapest car” in the world: The media & Tata overplayed the “1 lakh car” bit. Let's reflect on when the Maruti 800 was launched; it was hardly pitched as a cheap car. Instead, Maruti chose to focus on the strengths of the product, which were only amplified by word-of-mouth recommendations based on owner experiences. Car ownership in India is greatly driven by aspirational value, and owning the “cheapest car in India / the world” is not something one aspires to. Simply put, the Nano lacks the all-too-crucial status that first time car owners are looking for.

4. The Nano isn’t really a 1 lakh car: The on-road pricing varies between 1.5 lakhs for the base version, and goes to well over 2 lakhs for the LX variant. Many two-wheeler owners weren't even eligible for car financing in the first place. For those that are, in our EMI-driven times, the 800, Alto & Spark aren't too far away.

5. Poor communications: Tata’s handling of the media around the Nano fire incidents left a lot to be desired. 5 out of 10 people who sat in my test Nano mentioned something or the other about the car catching fire.

[Thilak29]

It's funny to see MGMotor India use the Hyundai Kona image to showcase the safety feature of their own car!
Devil is in the details

[lina]

China, Copying the best in the business since the 1960s. Way to go MG!

[anjan_c2007]

The Yamaha RX 100 was launched in 1986 with 6 Volt electricals. The bike soon caught the fancy of buyers and became the most sought after, performance 100 cc bike. The RX 100 shattered all records in the Motocross events, rallies and in many such competitions the Top Three places would go to the RX 100.

To top it all, the RX 100 was in the late 1980's banned in Punjab by the state government for quite some time, not for its polluting two stroke engine but because it came to also be known as a terrorist's bike.

The 6 V electricals continued for about nine years and Indian Auto magazine was always critical on this sole drawback. It highlighted the poor headlights in every other issue of the magazine, that were a setback for long distance bikers and equally so for ill-illuminated roads on short distance drives. The then makers, Escorts Limited did not yield to improvements and it was only around 1995 or so that the first 12 V RX100's appeared.

However, yours truly as a stickler for originality changed over to the 12 V electricals for his 1990 bike only in 2008. And that was when 6V bike batteries had almost become extinct in the market.

Sadly, the RX 100 had to be discontinued due the the newly emerging pollution norms in the late 1990's. The RX 135 and the RXG that came late also disappeared a few years after the turn of the millennium due to the pollution norms getting more stringent.

[Thilak29]

Originally Posted by Thilak29

It's funny to see MGMotor India use the Hyundai Kona image to showcase the safety feature of their own car!
Devil is in the details

Thanks to this post (?) , they have updated it !

[anjan_c2007]

Here are some facts regarding Ratan Tata's and Bill Ford's (then Chairman of Ford Motors) tete-a-tete, reminiscing the aborted proposal to sell Tata Motors to Ford and thereafter the famous JLR takeover, delivering a fitting riposte in 2008 to Bill Ford and Ford Motors. The facts have come to light courtesy a Tata employee Pravin Kadle, who was in the Tata delegation that went to Detroit, in these revelations to Times of India.

However, Bill Ford needs to be thanked by us for letting Tata Motors remain with the Tata Group. Else, had it gone to Ford, we would have faced not only the Ford disaster of 09.09.2021, but a great disaster of Ford + Tata Motors (in whatever new brand avatar name for the latter) combined, under the now defeated and beleaguered Ford ownership.

As Ford is getting ready to exit India, here's the story of how Indian business tycoon Ratan Tata challenged the US-based automaker after he was humiliated by former Ford chairman Bill Ford. It is no secret that Tata revolutionised the automobile sector in India when Tata Indica, India's first indigenously designed and manufactured car, and Tata Safari, India's first SUV were launched.

In 1998, after Tata’s company made their foray into the passenger car business, it looked like an ill-timed move and the venture seemed to be doomed to failure. Eventually, the industrialist decided to sell the business. However, an incident with Ford officials changed the course of history and instead of selling their car business to Ford, Tata ended up taking sweet revenge from US auto company by buying Ford's Jaguar Land Rover nine years later.

When Ratan Tata decided to sell the company's struggling passenger vehicle business, Ford officials voiced their interest after a trip to Tata’s Bombay Headquarters. However, when Tata and his team visited Detroit to hash out a deal, they were humiliated as Bill Ford, then chairman at Ford reportedly said to Tata that he was quite out of his depth.

Throwback: As Ford readies to close shop in India, know how Ratan Tata once challenged the automaker.

Key Highlights: Tata bought Jaguar and Land Rover in all-cash transaction of $2.3 billion from Ford in June 2008. At that time of the deal, JLR's retro designs were getting outdated, and competing with new efficient diesel engines was just making the carmaker redundant Andy Vine, Jaguar Land Rover dealer in Louisville, Ky., US recalled that Ratan Tata was directly involved in the business.

A Tata Group employee named Pravin Kadle who was present at the 1999 meeting recalled the incident saying, "They told us ‘you do not know anything, why did you start the passenger car division at all’. They said they will do us a favour by buying our car division.”

“We were called to Detroit for discussions and I accompanied the chairman. For nearly three hours, we discussed the sell-off with Ford officials but were meted out humiliating treatment,” said Kadle. The Tata group veteran told recalled how the team decided to return to New York the same evening and Ratan Tata was sombre throughout the 90-minute flight.

Nine years after the ‘humiliation’ in the US, tables turned and Tata had the opportunity to challenge Ford and take his sweet revenge. The salt-to-software conglomerate humbled Ford — which was then on the verge of bankruptcy after the 2008 global financial meltdown by taking over the auto company's iconic Jaguar Land-Rover brands for $2.3 billion.

Kadle recalled, “This was in 1999 and come 2008, the same Ford’s Jaguar and Land Rover were bought by us. Ford chairman Bill Ford thanked Ratan Tata, saying ‘you are doing us a big favour by buying JLR'. Not only did Tata buy JLR, Kadle recalled how within a few years of the buyout, sinking JLR made a dramatic turnaround and became the mainstay of Tata Motors’ finances.

The former Tata employee Kadle revealed all this when he was speaking, mostly in Marathi, after receiving the YB Chavan National Award 2014 on behalf of Ratan Tata. During his tenure at Tata Motors, Kadle was part of the senior leadership team that managed the cross-border acquisitions like Daewoo of South Korea, Incat Technologies of the UK and eventually of Jaguar-Land Rover of UK.

The news from Times of India :-

https://www.timesnownews.com/busines...tomaker/816497

[aargee]

Originally Posted by anjan_c2007

The news from Times of India :-

https://www.timesnownews.com/busines...tomaker/816497

Err...is TOI getting outdated as there's not much new content from most of us already know? AFAIK, this is an old news & well known to every automobile enthusiast.