[adimicra]

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

It is true that a person carefully analyzing any car - or its related threads - can find problems reported like this. But that doesn't mean that none should try to find problems with City, or reduce the commitment and effort done by Crazy Driver. (BTW, let me ask you Crazy Diver: Vere pani onnum illa, alle?

There was a perception in the Indian industry that Honda City stands for quality. That is what is proved false now. Hardcore Honda fans may find it difficult to digest. But the same will happen to any other person if this happens to his "idols".

Nowhere defending Honda. I agree with their drop in quality and I feel bad at it. Anyways!

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

There was a perception in the Indian industry that Honda City stands for quality. That is what is proved false now. Hardcore Honda fans may find it difficult to digest. But the same will happen to any other person if this happens to his "idols".

In my opinion, it was not really a perception that Honda was synonymous with quality. Not so long ago, Honda’s lineup in India read as Accord, CR-V, Civic, Jazz and the City, with the last two as the entry-level H models. And now it read as City, Mobilio, Amaze, and Brio. What used to be the entry model a few years back is now the top-of-the-line model (CR-V is there, but as a negligible presence).
In the last couple of years, due to market demands or localization (or whatever other reasons), Honda changed drastically and they repositioned themselves to a budget player and I guess the dust will settle once the buyers get aligned to the fact that Honda (in India) is now trying to be a direct competitor to the likes of Suzuki. I think Hyundai is now in a position where Honda used to be in the past.

[tejas08]

Originally Posted by adimicra

this thread has become a Honda bashing thread.

With due respect to the efforts put in by Crazy Driver (and no credit taken away from him for bringing all these issues into light), I completely agree with the statement that adimicra made above.

People want to call me a hard-core Honda fan or anything like that. Be it. But really there are a lot of other cars which are far worse than City.

This is only a reminder that successful products (No matter if they are of good quality & safe or not) are always criticized much much more than the unsuccessful ones. I am not making this statement for the Honda City alone. Look at the Swift failing the NCAP tests Thread. Swift is being bashed in that thread too. But the Sales numbers of Swift tell you a completely different story.

[nkishore_007]

I shared this thread in Honda Facebook page last week, and they pointed me to the service feedback page in their website. Duh!
I wrote to them again to make sure that they understand this thread and have it showcased some place where it will get a patient hearing.

But I hope this is being looked at by someone in authority. I could not locate any official channel to showcase the drop in quality with the recent entrants. Some of the serious issues such as hydrolocking on iDtec, etc. needs to be addressed ASAP. I am unhappy on the "changed" outlook for H. MSIL & Hyundai have their own outlook & way of promoting their models, and I strongly feel Honda must stay away from even trying to ape them. At the risk of being ridiculed for stating the obvious "yet" again- You simply cannot get cheaper cars by not compromising on quality.

I would want to think that the intent of this thread is good, and I hope that it will bring a difference. Having said that, I fully agree with adimicra on the "Honda bashing" point of view.

[fastraj]

The 2014 Honda Jazz (Honda Fit) and the Honda City scored 15.58 and 15.8 respectively out of 16 in Adult Occupant Protection, both securing 4 stars in AOP and 4 stars in COP with a compliance rating of 71%. Both the Honda Jazz and City are built in Thailand to cater to the local Thai market. While the above ratings were secured by their respective base variants with 2 standard airbags, the 6-airbag top-end variant secured 5 stars in AOP and COP. It's worth mentioning that the Honda City broke the record for the highest points ever achieved in ASEAN NCAP, beating previous holder, the Ford Fiesta's, score of 15.78 points.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by adimicra

But, this thread has become a Honda bashing thread. If anyone goes through the Honda City test drive thread, he/she can easily find lots of these complaints. .What I don't like is just to create a thread for bashing a car (and I am truly astonished at the amount of effort put in to prove that the new City has very bad quality). if you want a create a thread for all the issues related to the new City, it's fine. But, it should be more constructive...I mean how to fix the issues, how to escalate the issues through proper channels etc so that the owners can get those resolved. A different POV I guess.

Dear friend,

Good question. Allow me to explain -

Why a separate thread?

As of now, there are more than 3000 posts in the 'official review' thread. The sheer number of posts hides a lot of information - one that would not benefit a prospective buyer, forget a casual observer. Honda has a huge reputation for reliability and many people, BHP'ians included book the car without giving any other brands a second chance. The gravity of the issues, I felt, is not realized by the general public and hence a new thread was needed, IMO.

As you would agree - some of the issues highlighted by owners are simply unacceptable and requires to be brought to the attention of the public as well as Honda.

Its not the first time we are discussing issues related to a car in a seperate thread either -

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...-punto-30.html
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...solutions.html
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...-problems.html
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...solutions.html

The amount of effort put in -

A Gen4 city owner created a new thread for niggles of the new honda city when he faced the alternator belt whine issue. Have you seen it? May be not, because it was merged with the official review thread. I wouldn't blame the mods, because with the available data we had, Honda was supposed to be ever reliable and it wouldn't require a new thread to discuss the niggles of a Honda.

That's where the relevance of the data comes in! The same alternator belt issues were reported by 11 members. With some amount of time put in, I feel I could bring an issue (which i felt serious) to the notice of the community. As you have noted yourself, the apparent dip in quality sinks deep enough to hurt any petrolhead, much like yourself.

Bashing and constructive ideas-

Its deeply upsetting you used the word 'bashing' since I have tried my level best to stay away from personal opinions or observations in this thread. Quoted posts were used instead of my own words just to make sure it is said 'as is' reported by the owner. Still I'm to be blamed of creating a thread to bash? If you see some of the earlier threads mentioned above - it was created with far less information available.

Anyways, I wish i could provide constructive ideas as solutions either, but most of the issues discussed in the opening posts are still open without a proper solution - for example - the alternator belt issue, the bluetooth mic issue, the high speed twitching issue etc. I hope owners use the thread to provide useful solutions later on that will eventually help all members concerned. The same has been happening in the other niggles threads discussed above.

Escalation channels -

Trust me buddy, I couldn't find out this info after digging through even 3000 posts. Even recently (after the thread was published), a member wrote to Honda for headlights fogging issue and the below was the reply from Honda -

Regarding the concern of headlight fog, we already tested your car and communicated to you, this is a natural phenomenon and not a defect in the part.

The said phenomenon occurs due to condensation of air within headlight due in difference in temperature within and outside the headlight. While observation of your car the fog formation disappeared with change in air temperature and no water ingress was detected.

You would appreciate the same phenomenon happens on glass filled with cold water, windshield/window glass in rainy/winter season etc.

Please be assured that your car is in pristine condition and covered under Honda care program of HSCI.

We assure you our best service at all the times.

Regards,

Frankly speaking, the communication channels with Honda have been really appalling IMHO. It would be great if existing owners like you would provide me this information of communication channels. Even in this thread, owners have complained of the lack of proper escalation channels from Honda. I'll get the mods to update the thread if you have this information handy.

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

BTW, let me ask you Crazy Diver: Vere pani onnum illa, alle?

For the general benefit of others, he asked 'Don't you have any other work?'

I'm just a regular techie working for one of the biggest brands in the globe. Spends a lot of time in office and free time is rare these days. This thread was not created in a day and I hope it gets Honda's attention to these issues.

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

There was a perception in the Indian industry that Honda City stands for quality. That is what is proved false now. Hardcore Honda fans may find it difficult to digest. But the same will happen to any other person if this happens to his "idols".

In continuation to the above, if i hadn't put that effort - I'm sure i would have been bashed outright. If i could prove something with some effort, wasn't it worth it? And if Honda takes corrective actions and the industry benefits from it - what more could an automobile freak confined to the laptop keyboard ask for?

Originally Posted by tejas08

But really there are a lot of other cars which are far worse than City.

I agree completely with your opinion. However, Honda commands a premium status in the market for being the best. It is nowhere a consolation that they are not the last.

Originally Posted by nkishore_007

I would want to think that the intent of this thread is good, and I hope that it will bring a difference. Having said that, I fully agree with adimicra on the "Honda bashing" point of view.

Thanks a lot friend. If you go through any of the threads above, there is a general tendency to bash (specially by people who don't own the product). But the thread stabilizes over time when constructive solutions pour in for various issues noted. I hope Honda notices and turns around soon.

PS - The Civic was one of my all time favourites to be launched in the Indian market. However, I feel none of the current generation Honda cars do justice to that legacy! Hope they return to their former glory soon! Mainstream Honda is not Honda anymore.

[vinodvayyat]

Originally Posted by tejas08

This is only a reminder that successful products (No matter if they are of good quality & safe or not) are always criticized much much more than the unsuccessful ones.

• That is quite usual and logical
• There are threads bashing FIAT, Skoda and VW. I don't think Honda is very different than FIAT or VW. It might be that the European versions are much better than Honda.
• Success in the market is about a lot more stuff - not just about quality of vehicles. If the so called best C segment car has niggles and issues, it has to be discussed as it happens for other cars too in this forum.

[tejas08]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Its deeply upsetting you used the word 'bashing' since I have tried my level best to stay away from personal opinions or observations in this thread. Quoted posts were used instead of my own words just to make sure it is said 'as is' reported by the owner. Still I'm to be blamed of creating a thread to bash? If you see some of the earlier threads mentioned above - it was created with far less information available.

Crazy Driver : You really should not be upset about anything. Well I never meant to say that you started a Honda Bashing Thread. Neither do I think that Adimicra would have meant that. This comes in response to some or actually quite a lot of posts in the thread.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

In continuation to the above, if i hadn't put that effort - I'm sure i would have been bashed outright. If i could prove something with some effort, wasn't it worth it? And if Honda takes corrective actions and the industry benefits from it - what more could an automobile freak confined to the laptop keyboard ask for?

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

I agree completely with your opinion. However, Honda commands a premium status in the market for being the best. It is nowhere a consolation that they are not the last.

PS - The Civic was one of my all time favourites to be launched in the Indian market. However, I feel none of the current generation Honda cars do justice to that legacy! Hope they return to their former glory soon! Mainstream Honda is not Honda anymore.

Somewhere could it be a reason that over the years Honda has come down in the market from the likes of CR-V, Accord, Civic and City to City, Jazz, Amaze, Brio, Mobilio. I think somebody else to posted a similar thing to this. Just don't remember who.

I compare this scenario with the iPhone 6+ recently launched. With the growing demand of Larger smartphones, Apple have had to do something which they never felt was right or should I say they never gave in to the market pressure prior to the current scenario.

[alavandar]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

As of now, there are more than 3000 posts in the 'official review' thread. ......
As you would agree - some of the issues highlighted by owners are simply unacceptable and requires to be brought to the attention of the public as well as Honda.
The amount of effort put in -

........

Bashing and constructive ideas-
Its deeply upsetting you used the word 'bashing' since I have tried my level best to stay away from personal opinions or observations in this thread. Quoted posts were used ........
Frankly speaking, the communication channels with Honda have been really appalling.....
For the general benefit of others, he asked 'Don't you have any other work?'
I'm just a regular techie working for one of the biggest brands in the globe. .....
In continuation to the above, if i hadn't put that effort - I'm sure i would have been bashed outright. If i could prove something with some effort, wasn't it worth it?
I agree completely with your opinion. However, Honda commands a premium status in the market for being the best. It is nowhere a consolation that they are not the last.
Thanks a lot friend. If you go through any of the threads above, there is a general tendency to bash (specially by people who don't own the product).
.....

Dear Sir, Unfortunately, you were wrongly made to tread a tough road to defend your views for saying the right things. We, Indians, need a hero, be it Bhachan, Tendulkar, MGR, Amma or NaMo or City. We are good in adoring and are bad in evaluating objectively.You have done a good job of objective evaluation. Press on regardless and please continue with your good work.

In my opinion tbhp should be the consumers' forum in a manner to air their views, bring out the inadequacies of the products and a forum which makes the makers to sit up and think. There are paid PR agencies and paid newswallas and biased opinion polls to take care of the interests of the car makers. We, as car buyers/ consumers, have only few forums like tbhp with us to exchange common problems faced by users.

I hope more such unbiased threads are created,

[wheeledsoul]

I am planning to go sedan (petrol) shopping this time around when I visit India, to be used by my parents, driven around by a hired driver. Honda City is/was high on my list followed by Verna and Etios based only on reliability and hassle free ownership and then this thread came up.

Thanks crazy driver for compiling all niggles, will help people like me take an informed decision.

However, just curious if any of the niggles mentioned are i-DTEC/i-VTEC specific.

[pgsagar]

Generally we see threads like this started by suffering owners of cars. But CD does not appear to own a Honda car. At least he did not mention that anywhere. Which is why I just suspect the very timing and motive of this thread. Why pick on Honda alone? European, especially German cars are exponentially far more unreliable. Should CD not start a thread on those cars as well? Except 2 guys, he seems to have been cheered along by one and all in his endeavour. Wow! So many Honda haters? I didn't know that. Not only is it appreaciated, it has even been awarded a 5-star rating. This thread has turned into a Honda bashing thread. To that end, you have been very successfull CD.

BTW, I do not own / never owned any Honda car and since I'm looking forward to buying a diesel AT SUV, Honda has nothing for me. But I am an admirer of this brand. And I'm not amused by what this thread has turned into. So much reasearch appears to have been done to malign a brand.

[CliffHanger]

Originally Posted by pgsagar

Generally we see threads like this started by suffering owners of cars. But CD does not appear to own a Honda car. At least he did not mention that anywhere. Which is why I just suspect the very timing and motive of this thread. Why pick on Honda alone? European, especially German cars are exponentially far more unreliable. Should CD not start a thread on those cars as well? Except 2 guys, he seems to have been cheered along by one and all in his endeavour. Wow! So many Honda haters? I didn't know that. Not only is it appreaciated, it has even been awarded a 5-star rating. This thread has turned into a Honda bashing thread. To that end, you have been very successfull CD.

BTW, I do not own / never owned any Honda car and since I'm looking forward to buying a diesel AT SUV, Honda has nothing for me. But I am an admirer of this brand. And I'm not amused by what this thread has turned into. So much reasearch appears to have been done to malign a brand.

As an adage goes, "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

Honda has been long associated with quality that people find both the words synonymous to each other.

In that context, what Crazy Driver has done is very commendable and these are the kind of threads I would like to see more on Team-Bhp.

Even I don't have anything to do with Honda, but this thread with its concrete evidence has altered my perception about Honda.

I hope moderators don't close these kind of threads just because some people or even the majority are of different view.

I want this forum to stand for "Truth" rather for "popular opinions"!

And, Crazy_Driver, your effort is very much acknowledged and appreciated!

[nakul0888]

Originally Posted by pgsagar

Generally we see threads like this started by suffering owners of cars. But CD does not appear to own a Honda car. At least he did not mention that anywhere. Which is why I just suspect the very timing and motive of this thread. Why pick on Honda alone? European, especially German cars are exponentially far more unreliable. Should CD not start a thread on those cars as well? Except 2 guys, he seems to have been cheered along by one and all in his endeavour. Wow! So many Honda haters? I didn't know that. Not only is it appreaciated, it has even been awarded a 5-star rating. This thread has turned into a Honda bashing thread. To that end, you have been very successfull CD.

BTW, I do not own / never owned any Honda car and since I'm looking forward to buying a diesel AT SUV, Honda has nothing for me. But I am an admirer of this brand. And I'm not amused by what this thread has turned into. So much reasearch appears to have been done to malign a brand.

I have no idea what Crazy Driver's original intentions are. But whatever it was there is no denying the fact that what he has posted is true.

I am not a Honda hater. I infact love them. I am on my third one as of now.
As a Honda fan what I really respect about the company is the fact that their cars are the jack of all trades. They have got the best engines, best gearbox (manual of course), decent dynamics (nothing a good tuner can't sort out), safety part is debatable and best of all the reliability of a wood burning stove.

The last part is quite a bit important.

I had a Fabia for one year. It was a bloody nightmare. Niggles and faults keep creeping up every now and then. It was just too much for a car lover to bear. I never want to go through something like that ever again.

Honestly if Honda starts to go the European way it's going to be tough on lots of people who doesn't like taking risks with their money.
And if they going down that road, then they do deserve to be bashed. Any car maker deserves it.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by pgsagar

Generally we see threads like this started by suffering owners of cars. But CD does not appear to own a Honda car. So much reasearch appears to have been done to malign a brand.

I disagree. Firstly, whatever statistics that has come up here is the hard truth - No false claims, No exaggeration etc. Whatever is reported by owners is put up here. And the owners themselves have verified the occurrences.

Here in TBHP, all kinds of issues have been well discussed. Be it skoda horror stories, or issues related to Maruti Suzuki rattles and maintenance, some incidents of poor aftersales by the Germans, Fiats poor service network and so on. IMO no brand has been selectively left out of debate in the forum nor has any bias been shown. If I may say, Honda just entered the club late, and it was not unnecessary considering all the issues reported here. Just like how there is a list of DSG failures, here is a list of niggles. Theres one for most of the cars too. Hence there is nothing wrong in educating both members and guests about an issue and alerting them. I have been a Honda admirer for sometime, and though I dont own a car, I own a Honda scoot. But the truth must be accepted rather than challenging the motive.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by pgsagar

Generally we see threads like this started by suffering owners of cars. But CD does not appear to own a Honda car. At least he did not mention that anywhere. Which is why I just suspect the very timing and motive of this thread. Why pick on Honda alone? European, especially German cars are exponentially far more unreliable. Should CD not start a thread on those cars as well? Except 2 guys, he seems to have been cheered along by one and all in his endeavour. Wow! So many Honda haters? I didn't know that. Not only is it appreaciated, it has even been awarded a 5-star rating. This thread has turned into a Honda bashing thread. To that end, you have been very successfull CD.

BTW, I do not own / never owned any Honda car and since I'm looking forward to buying a diesel AT SUV, Honda has nothing for me. But I am an admirer of this brand. And I'm not amused by what this thread has turned into. So much reasearch appears to have been done to malign a brand.

Sorry, but do you really think CD has some vested interest to spend so much of time to research about a brand/model and come up with a thread to malign the brand? All the points mentioned are with clear references to our own threads and user experiences. I find this thread very educational, and we had similar threads about the issues/shortcomings related to other brands. IMO, only a hardcore brand-admirer can find malice in the intention and facts put forward in this thread.

And I think most of the folks who commented in this thread are those who used to admire Honda as a brand, and is disillusioned by the way they have repositioned themselves.

Originally Posted by nakul0888

Honestly if Honda starts to go the European way it's going to be tough on lots of people who doesn't like taking risks with their money.
And if they going down that road, then they do deserve to be bashed. Any car maker deserves it.

IMHO, if Honda had gone in the European way, we wouldn't be having this thread running. We had cars like Civic, Jazz which offered best of both worlds (built with European markets in mind, and also had the famed Japanese reliability). The current line-up unfortunately is so much India-specific and they're probably looking at all possible ways of cost-cutting.