[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by for_cars1

The previous generations of Honda were "relatively" higher on interior raw material quality, but came with very less features for the price commanded. Now with the latest model, they have bridged the feature gap but everything ultimately is built around a price.

You said it sir!

Everything is built around a price. Something had to give for the increase in features - and in the case of Honda, it has chosen to sacrifice the build and component quality over the previous generations. The problem is - Honda cars are more expensive than their competition across segments. Take the case of the Amaze, or the Jazz, or the City. Or even the Honda Mobilio that fell victim of this pricing strategy. FYI - Honda City touches 15L OTR in bangalore for the top end diesel, which is significantly more than any of its competition. In fact, every product from Honda commands a premium over the competition - for the simple reason that it is infact a Honda. If the whole cost cutting exercise was centered around pricing, then why hasn't the same been transferred to the customers?

As you have mentioned - the products still remain competitive. But only just so! Honda still retains the advantage of having a brilliant iVTec petrol engine. But when you take the automatic and the diesel variants into consideration - Honda is struggling to keep up with the competition purely from a product perspective.

Let me put it on more direct words - How many would buy a TATA/ FIAT/ Chevrolet City given the current level of niggles, build quality, design flaws etc reported? How many would buy a FIAT City iVTec against a Honda Linea TJet at current prices? How many would buy a Volkswagen City CVT against a Honda Vento 1.2 TSi? How many would buy a Skoda City diesel against a Honda Rapid 1.5 DSG? How many would buy a TATA Amaze as against a Honda Zest, or a Ford Amaze diesel against a Honda Aspire diesel? You take the brand "Honda" away and the products, specially at the current quality levels lose any big advantage they have over the competition.

And that 'brand' truly adds a lot of value to the equation. For me, that represents a lot. Reliability, design, desirability, reliability, performance - all of these epitomized by cars like the Civic. None of the attributes I would associate with the current products from the stable in India. People are paying through their nose for it being a Honda, whether knowingly or unknowingly. So where does that leave our argument on pricing. Honda products command a premium - and why should they not? Honda is still selling as much cars as they can manage to make.

The answer is simple, really. Profit maximization.

But the bubble will burst at one point. Let me qoute another example. I just read in the official review thread where a member got the horn replaced 3-4 times under warranty in the first year. He is still happy with the car as it is a minor niggle. 3-4 times in first year becomes 6-8 times in two years and a dozen workshop visits in three years. Do we still expect the same member to be satisfied unless the quality is pulled up?

Honda is riding a torque wave built upon a generation of good products. Sore ownership experiences will eventually tarnish the image to the point where it requires to be rebuilt. And they are closer to it than they think IMO. 10 years ago they dominated every segment they participated in - with stalwart products like the City, Civic, Accord, CRV etc. Now they are nowhere close to that Honda we know - with products like Brio, Amaze, Jazz, Mobilio and the 4th gen City, atleast few of which are at the bottom of their respective segments from a pure product perspective. It takes quite a lot to bounce back once you hit the floor.

[B103]

Originally Posted by geotracks

It worries to read so many niggles being reported on new Honda cars in India. If you talk to Honda owners India, of slightly older cars (2012 or earlier) they are very happy. Which makes me wonder if the vendors from which Honda get supplies have changed or has Honda actually been compromising on QA / QC.

I am an owner of a 2009 gem. My car does not have any item numbers like rain sensing wipers, bluetooth, navigation system etc etc which many Indians are infinitely besotted. But it is one heck of an niggle free, exciting car to own

In subsequent years, from the sales numbers, Honda realized that Indian customers are enamoured by these gizmos as much as or more than the car itself. You can see this from numerous posts in team-bhp where members make feature by feature comparison influencing their buying decision. Honda localized heavily and introduced all those swanky features into their cars too. From what we observed, people were gaga and started buying Hondas again.

Honda, India had partly lost the original DNA. Parent company realize this as an international problem and are trying to make amends: http://www.enca.com/life/motoring/ho...g-quality-cars

Personally, I would like to see Honda go back and make those cars of yore again. Their cars were known for quality, longevity and being exciting to drive. These cars have made their owners grin ear-to-ear.

Same time, I am wishful of seeing the day where at least educated buyers in India remain unswayed and uncharmed by these trivialities and instead focus on safety, comfort, driving experience and quality. But that is me

[geotracks]

Originally Posted by B103

I am an owner of a 2009 gem. My car does not have any item numbers like rain sensing wipers, bluetooth, navigation system etc etc which many Indians are infinitely besotted. But it is one heck of an niggle free, exciting car to own

Well said. Toyota cars still follow this strategy. They have pretty plain interiors and not much gadgets, but they are niggle free reliable vehicles.

Honda may have changed their suppliers (for Indian customers) due to cost cutting measures to gain the market share. I say this because in the US & other bigger markets., I am not sure if there are these many niggles being reported for Honda cars.

I say this, since my original stocks tyres (MRF) on my Honda City suddenly started getting bulges on the side wall after 1.5 - 2 years of use (between than 15K - 20K kms driven). Honda thru' MRF replaced the tyres with new ones, for a prorated cost. But the point is that MRF supplied Honda with tyres that were not 100% QA/QC tested. I replaced 2 MRF tyres due to this bulging issue.

Honda can screen their suppliers better to ensure use of quality parts. The i-vetc no doubt is a sweet & proven engine.

[B103]

My City (Feb, 2009) completed 5 years in Feb, 2015. When I took the car for service last time, the service advisor told me that company is giving me an option to go for extended warranty for another 2 more years. The privilege was bestowed to select customers who had done all services on time from Honda's centers itself.

They quoted 10K for one year. But I did not opt for it which is indicative of the level of confidence that I have on the vehicle. Touch wood.

[dhruv45in]

Originally Posted by B103

My City (Feb, 2009) completed 5 years in Feb, 2015. ...

You mean completed 6 years?

[B103]

Originally Posted by dhruv45in

You mean completed 6 years?

My bad. I bought it in Feb, 2010 and not in 2009. Back then, City V (top end) was a barebone model with 2 front airbags, alloy wheels, AC, 5 seatbelts and a music player

[Rahul Bhalgat]

I have seen some of my friends / relatives / neighbors buying the Honda City out of the following perceptions:

• Nothing is as good as Honda City and in its class, there is no reason to buy any other car unless out of the budget. It is the most perfectly designed and built car.
• Honda City means a prestige that other cars do not bring. It is the most elite and premium car in its class.

Considering the reports of niggles, deteriorating build quality, paint problems and attitude at sales points, we need to correct the perceptions like the above. And I feel this shall be done on continuous basis, whenever there is a casual chat about cars among the friends and relatives.

By the time a friend / relative is in the market for a car (and comes to seek our opinion), he might be already inclined towards the Honda City based on the above perceptions. At that time, if we tell him about niggles, quality etc., he may not like or he may even misunderstand that we don't want him to buy a prestigious car. Hence, we shall educate the friends and relatives whenever these is a general casual conversation on cars. At least they will look at all the choices objectively without bias.

I am not against buying Honda City. But while choosing a car, one shall consider its merits, weaknesses, suitability and the actual experience of well-informed users besides personal likes, budget etc. Buying process shall be well studied, let the outcome be Honda City or any other car.

If Honda earns extra profits by giving us less VFM, by deteriorating the quality and by pushing the sales with the perceptions like the above, it is a loss to consumer as well as the nation.

Again, I am not saying, "Do not buy Honda City". But do not fall pray to perceptions like the above. Like the other cars, this car too has its share of niggles, flaws, attitude at sales point etc. This is not the most perfect or most ideal car, it is just one of the cars in the market. So during the buying process, do not write off its competitors without objectively assessing them.

[deepakv]

And the water leakage is back. 5 times I have given the vehicle since I bought it last June to Solitaire Honda and they are unable to fix the issue. Raised another concern with Honda as well. Really at my wits end on what to do now with this sorry excuse of a Honda product.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Dear RavenAvi,

Apologies for quoting you posts from the ownership thread here. It is quite unfortunate that one of the most documented ownership reports on the forum had to take such a sad turn. It was your ownership thread in particular that made me sit up and notice. While it is disheartening to see a member suffer, the silver lining here is that you have received a good offer and decided to move on.

Not to probe into this further, but I hope you agree with me that the awareness needs to be created among the public. Hence quoting the posts here. If you have other opinion, please feel free to report the post and have it removed.

Thanks.

Originally Posted by RavenAvi

Gremlins Update:


So I had the chance to visit the Service Center last weekend. Since it was not a service schedule and was more of an emergency visit, I listed down all niggles which are plaguing me and Empress right now:

- The "Check Engine" gremlin which had reared it's head last month.

- The relentless squeaking of the front seats section.

- Two small rattles from the dashboard section - one from the steering column and the other from under the glovebox somewhere - which became very pronounced if the road surface became rough or uneven.

- Front passenger door has started rattling. The door never used to close fully upon the first try from the delivery day itself, and it shut tight only the second/third time with a firm push. I suspected the door rubber beading to have lost it's strength, or the locking mechanism to have gotten misaligned.

- Driver-side internal door lever had broken loose in the second week of August and I could no longer open the driver door from the inside.

(Apologies for the lack of pictures - it was very hot and I was too short on time to get the work done and dash back home on the same day)


Check Engine gremlin: Got Empress hooked to the service laptop first, to check the Malfunction history. Sure enough, an entry for 12th June was saved in the memory bank, which said "Engine Control Module (ECM) malfunction". The tech again got busy with the wirings and couplers inside the engine bay, and pointed out to a couple of wires behind the turbocharger unit which had slipped out of their place. They were tucked back in.
What kind of shoddy work do the people at Honda Quality Control do when the Citys roll out from the assembly lines, I wonder.

Seats squeaking: They removed the art leather Autoform seat covers first, just to confirm if the squeaking didn't happen due to the seat cover surfaces rubbing against each other. The front seats were subsequently removed and the black metal panels underneath (which have 2 nuts which bolt the seat to the car floor) were checked thoroughly. Some greasing was applied and the seats were fixed back in place.
Didn't hear any squeaking on my return journey but as of day before yesterday, faint squeaking has returned, although not as pronounced as before.

Dash & Steering Rattling: The glovebox was taken out and all the parts under that section (including wires which extended all around, possibly for the speakers and HU) were checked. Then they put in around 3-4 cardboard cutout packings inside.
Don't know exactly what they did but the glovebox rattling has stopped from then on.
Then they checked the steering column's underside, and the section between the steering and the speedometer. 3 techs were working on this simultaneously so I didn't get to see exactly what was going on. After about 45 minutes of fiddling around, they reported that they didn't see anything wrong or suspicious anywhere. They put in some fresh lubrication and re-fitted the section.
As of now, the gentle rattling persists.

Front Passenger door: They removed the lock gear (inside the door) and checked it, and although it looked okay, they replaced the gear with another one and checked again. The door didn't close in the first try. A new lock gear was brought (under warranty) and that replaced the existing gear, and then they pushed the door shut. The door didn't shut completely yet again. They told me to keep the new lock gear, while they wrote to the company about this issue and would get back to me soon. The door beading rubber looked okay, so it was not replaced. After getting assurance that any/all guilty parts would be replaced, I had to relent.
As of now, the front passenger door still doesn't shut fully upon the first try, and still rattles slightly during rides even when fully shut.

Driver-side internal door handle: The door panel was opened and it was surprising to see that the internal door handle's spring section had broken into two cleanly. One small part was still dangling inside, and thankfully the door lock hadn't been damaged, or it could have been further trouble. The entire inner door handle was replaced (under warranty) and I was told that the damaged lever would be sent back to Honda under classification of "damaged parts under warranty".
I thought back to the day when the techs had visited my city with the Mobile van and had "fixed" the window glass problem, and how many times they were jerking the door lever, pulling it out and putting it back into the door panel. Maybe the spring inside couldn't handle all that pressure and eventually broke, wearing down further with subsequent continued use.
As of now, the new internal door handle is working perfectly.


Billing Details:

Front Passenger door lock gear = Replaced under warranty,
Driver door internal handle unit = Replaced under warranty,
Labour Charges (including VAT) = Rs. 1500/-

Final Bill Paid = Rs. 1500/-


And, as if to compound the problems, the driver side window glass has started it's "kat-kat" problem again when it is powered down or up, from today morning. (same as last year)

Seems like the jugaad which the techs had done last year (of inserting an aluminium piece into the door checker section) has moved out of it's place when the door lever work was carried out, and now it needs to be re-inserted back into place.

The new techs apparently didn't know about this problem, and in my haste of getting the new niggles rectified, I had completely forgot to tell about this to them.

Already Lazarus (my Creta SX+) has replaced Empress for most of my daily runs, and nowadays she finds herself parked inside the compound and gathering dust for 4-5 days at a time, unless when wifey takes her out for a shopping run, or to my 3-year-old Princess's school occasionally.

Dad was quite sick in-between and prefers driving Silver Queen (his Swift ZXI) more, because his running has come down drastically and he sticks to in-city runs only these days.

Will see what the report from the dealership comes, and if it isn't to my satisfaction, I might have to sell Empress off. These persistent niggles annoy and frustrate a lot, and I simply can't live with a car which will start to fall apart anytime soon.

ODO stands at 13,157 kms as of today, while FE is at 18.7 kmpl.

Originally Posted by RavenAvi

Received the response earlier in the afternoon today, from the company (via dealership).

They have asked if Empress was involved in an accident in-between, and if that is the reason why the passenger-side door is misaligned and the driver door glass is creating the sound when the window is rolled down.

My SA assured them that nothing of that sort has happened with Empress, and that the passenger-side door has this issue from delivery day itself, while the driver-door's glass problem started from May 2014. Still, they aren't convinced and are asking for an independent, thorough check of Empress by separate technicians.

Seriously, it was a moment when I couldn't decide whether to laugh or to cry! Wish there really was an accident involved, like they are so shamelessly insinuating!


People will soon realise that the Honda India company of 2014-onwards are actually a pale shadow of the Honda India which was last with us in 2012, when they had launched the facelift versions of the earlier-gen City & earlier-gen Jazz.

They have well and truly gone "mainstream" in India alright.

I have a good offer in hand, and am going ahead with it. The company's response earlier today has pushed me finally over the edge.

I have described the niggles to the new owner, and he was fine with them, and said he would get them taken care of. He test drove Empress a number of times and is genuinely interested in buying her. I hope he can sort through the annoying niggles and she serves him well in the days to come.

Haven't thought of any yet, but it's a given that our next car won't be a Honda. That's for sure.

But, I would like to commend my local Honda dealership, Shubh Honda, for steadfastly standing by me through all this. I was always given a patient hearing, all issues were tackled by them to the best of their ability, and they did what they could to keep my City as well as she could be.

Thank you, the team of Shubh Honda, and my wonderful SA, Deepak Tiwari. Much indebted for all your support.

ODO is at 13,194 kms.

[nkrishnap]

I am sharing this across to a couple of prospective buyers in my office who are sold on the City. Hope they don't face any issues mentioned on this thread if they still decide to buy the City.

At least now the newer generation Honda Vehicles Official test drive and review threads mention niggling issues as part of the negatives as it rightly needs to go in there. Honda has lost its way.

[UJJAWAL SINGH]

I own a Honda City iDtec 2014 Dec version. Though the car is a major upgrade in terms of riding comfort, interior space as compared to my previous possession-Maruti Swift 2009 model, still I am facing the following niggles constantly since the 4th or 5th month of ownership itself:

1) Dashboard rattles: A squeaking sound ( chu..chu..chu...chu) comes from the dashboard behind the steering column, just where the dashboard plastic meets the wind screen bottom when the car is run over even slightly uneven roads. But the irony is that whenever I take the car for service centre for the same, then this sound just disappears because the roads near the service centre are just fine

2) Window pane noise: The front left passenger side window pane yells like hell as if the glass is rubbing against some thing constantly. But again due to good roads near the service centre, I am unable to produce this noise again.

REMEDY for the above niggles: Just increase the volume of music to 14-15 bars and enjoy that favourite number of Bon Jovi/ Rehman.



On the fuel economy front tough, here is a testimony for a terrific mileage given by my City since day 01. Such figures are achieved by me by constantly driving my City on cruise control mode at 90 km/hr speed at 6th gear & with AC on for the entire journey.

[deepakv]

Don't want to get into a rant about the service from Solitaire Honda on the water leakage i am facing since purchase last year - just received a disgusting email from them. However, here is an image of the water flow from the B-panel (marked in blue line on carpet) - requesting knowledgeable folks to help diagnose the source of leakage?
All in all - buyer beware.

[amit]

A lot of posts here seem to suggest that the new City's are prone to niggles because of more features & technology. Skoda's are not given the same leniency so why Honda gets this luxury? Suddenly many of us are praising Toyota & older Honda's for sticking to bare bones cars which are very reliable. At the same time we flame Toyota for not giving features for the price they are charging! We really need to make up our minds. In any case, lot of niggles being reported here are of rattles & leakages. I don't think technology has anything to do with these issues.

[drjumbo]

Again! !! Now the in-cabin seat noises are bugging me. not gonna get these fixed. Have decided to live with these. Counting till I have money for a new car..then bye bye Honda A.K.A Maruti. cheap production just focused on numbers.
Had to give up my denial finally.
She is noisier than my alto.

[Simhi]

The JD Power Study details have been published on our site by a4anurag.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...ml#post3794523

Please refer to Vehicle Dependability Study chart. If we look at number of problems reported per 100 vehicles (lower score reflects better quality performance)

Honda City: 146
Toyota Etios: 153
Maruti Suzuki Swift Dzire: 176
Maruti Suzuki Swift: 187
Hyundai i20: 235

Surprising figure considering the number of posts we have for Honda city niggles compared to other vehicles in this forum