[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by pgsagar

Generally we see threads like this started by suffering owners of cars. But CD does not appear to own a Honda car.

Correct, I don't.

And there was a thread created by a member, an owner when he faced the alternator belt grinding noise issue. The thread was started by him for sharing all the niggles faced in the 4th generation Honda City.

Where is the thread then? Merged with the official review thread. Probably mods, with the data available would have felt it unnecessary to have a niggles thread for a brand that has a good record previously for giving niggle free ownership experience.

Originally Posted by pgsagar

At least he did not mention that anywhere. Which is why I just suspect the very timing and motive of this thread.

Timing and motive? Care to explain?

Originally Posted by pgsagar

Why pick on Honda alone? European, especially German cars are exponentially far more unreliable. Should CD not start a thread on those cars as well? Except 2 guys, he seems to have been cheered along by one and all in his endeavour. Wow! So many Honda haters? I didn't know that. Not only is it appreaciated, it has even been awarded a 5-star rating. This thread has turned into a Honda bashing thread. To that end, you have been very successfull CD.

BTW, I do not own / never owned any Honda car and since I'm looking forward to buying a diesel AT SUV, Honda has nothing for me. But I am an admirer of this brand. And I'm not amused by what this thread has turned into. So much reasearch appears to have been done to malign a brand.

You have a point. European cars are far more unreliable. But don't we know that? How many threads are there about European cars. Let's take all examples.

1. Fiat- Everybody knows the issues they are going through- service related threads, Punto niggles thread, etc aplenty.

2. VW and Skoda- Lots of horror stories. Everyone knows what they are buying- a superior mechanical package that can cost a bomb when something goes wrong.

3. TATA and Mahindra- Need I say more? There are a lot of threads revealing all their issues.

4. Maruti Suzuki- I'm quite surprised people are shocked by the NCAP results. There are already a dozen threads on their build quality. Everyone knows what they are digging their hands into.

Kindly answer a few questions from me as well-

1. Can you point out ONE example like the Honda City where the overall image is that of a brilliant car, but inside owners were facing lot of niggles with the current generation?

2. There are quite a few owners here who commented as well. Would you consider them as well among the 'Honda haters' list who encouraged this thread?

3. I'm sorry but if the owners of the brand feel there is a quality dip, and multiple owners of the current and previous generation cars have commented on that, can you please let me know how we are 'maligning' a brand here? Pulling out the facts is maligning?

4. You say two guys have objected to the thread? Both members have clarified in other posts that they do agree there is a dip in quality levels. One member has clarified that some of the posts that came later from other members contained baseless bashing which is what he objected against. So why do you say they object to the thread?

5. You call yourself an admirer of the brand. Do you agree with the dip in quality levels that happened recently? Do you admire the fact the 11 members faced issues with the alternator belt on the iVTEC and didn't get a solution yet, or even for the parts falling off? Or even the high speed twitching? Do you admire the brand this way?

I admire the brand as well, for what it used to be, for what it can be. And the last car I admired from the stable was the Civic.

And 6. Once again, as asked earlier- care to explain the allegation on the 'timing and intent' of this thread.

PS- Love is not blind and doesn't mean you keep ignoring whatever comes along. If Honda comes back to what it used to be (When they used to build the likes of Civic), let me assure you that I would be the first one to start a thread to appreciate.

Originally Posted by wheeledsoul

However, just curious if any of the niggles mentioned are i-DTEC/i-VTEC specific.

The alternator belt grinding noise and the warranty replacement for clutch issues were reported by iVTEC owners.

iDTEC doesn't have any niggles reported except for the higher NVH levels and lower torque associated with the engine.

[arun_josie]

Thanks CrAzY dRiVeR for this thread. you really have put lot of efforts to consolidate the issues faced by Honda City customers rather than giving your opinion without backing data.

Even I had respect for Honda as a premium brand. But after Amaze and Mobilio, I got a feeling that they are willing to give up the premium feel to compete with Maruti. I know people in my close circles who went for Honda City/Amaze just for the brand name. However, now this thread has exposed that even Honda City is compromised. I hope Honda takes feedback from its customers and set things right at the earliest.

[DieselAddikt]

@ CrAzY dRiVeR....
I don't think there is any wrong intention with the thread. Most manufactures will niggles have such a thread. Honda is no God. If their cars have niggles, let us point it out so that buyers are well informed.

CD neither asked anyone nor suggested anyone not to buy this car. He is just trying to say that the quality has gone down and that there are X, Y and Z issues. If you still want to go ahead and buy one, you are always welcome. At least you know what you are getting and will not be taken by surprise.

I understand there are "fanboys" for every brand, more so, when you have already bought one of their cars, but that doesn't mean the cars are awesome. I have already read people coming up with counter arguments like "sales chart says it all". Come one dude, sales chart does say that they sold more cars. It does not say that they build exceptional cars. In our country, most people buy cars to make sure they are at par with their neighbors. I am sure most number of Honda City cars sold would be the base variant "diesel" cars. And 75% of those people who bought them would have stretched their budget to reach the next higher segment as much as they can. This is to boost their so called "status" in their neighborhood. They don't give a damn about quality/safety.

I was a fan of the old City vTech and I still love it. But having seen the Amaze and the pathetic quality, I have started appreciating Hyundai for what they are. None of their cars are "awesome" to drive, but they don't feel cheap inside or outside. When you think again, neither is Honda an exceptional handler. More hype and less stuff. Let us face it guys. When a manufacturer goes down on quality, people should make them understand that they are aware of it. Then the business house will take a note of it and try to improve.

[Eddy]

Originally Posted by pgsagar

Should CD not start a thread on those cars as well?

Well, that is not fair.

C_D has chosen to highlight issues with a certain car / brand. That does not mean he has to do it for all other brands as well.

As long as there is enough data, anyone is free to start a thread discussing issues. Go for it...

[Raosaheb Desai]

Reading the horrible experience of audi a6 owner, honda city niggles are nothing!!!

Jokes apart, all manufacturers must provide the quality product and need to change attitude towards Indian buyer.

[DieselAddikt]

Originally Posted by Eddy

As long as there is enough data, anyone is free to start a thread discussing issues. Go for it...

Exactly. It is not that one fine day CrAzY dRiVeR decided to "bash Honda" (as some people call it here) by starting a thread. He has reported the issues after painstakingly collecting the relevant data. If so many issues were reported in team-bhp itself, where there are not many new Honda City owners, the real magnitude of these problems will only be more that what we have seen here and cannot be passed off as one-off cases.

If somebody else has such data about, say Toyota or Nissan, go ahead and start threads so that people are more educated. I said Toyota and Nissan because I think they are the only ones for which we have not had any Issues/niggles thread. Almost all the other manufactures have one (for one model or the other) in Team-bhp.

[v6kgang]

Amazing thread C_D. Nice research, cars like Honda city needs this kind of thread because people will associate bullet proof reliability with Honda. The cars from Tata doesn't need a dedicated thread on niggles IMO as you will run out of time (ex-tata manza owner) trying to pen down all. I guess any auto enthusiast will be very appreciative of the depth of information in this thread. Good work

[tejas08]

Originally Posted by pgsagar

Generally we see threads like this started by suffering owners of cars. But CD does not appear to own a Honda car. At least he did not mention that anywhere. Which is why I just suspect the very timing and motive of this thread. Why pick on Honda alone? European, especially German cars are exponentially far more unreliable. Should CD not start a thread on those cars as well? Except 2 guys, he seems to have been cheered along by one and all in his endeavour. Wow! So many Honda haters? I didn't know that. Not only is it appreaciated, it has even been awarded a 5-star rating. This thread has turned into a Honda bashing thread. To that end, you have been very successfull CD.

BTW, I do not own / never owned any Honda car and since I'm looking forward to buying a diesel AT SUV, Honda has nothing for me. But I am an admirer of this brand. And I'm not amused by what this thread has turned into. So much reasearch appears to have been done to malign a brand.

That's some serious allegation that has been made. Here's my two cents as a Honda Car Owner.

Honda City is my first car ever. I went for the Honda City after evaluating a lot of factors like features and maintenance and regular stuff that people evaluate. Being my first car (and actually the first ever in my family) I had no idea about how to look at the car from the Quality perspective and the niggles / issues that a car faces in regular use. I never researched on this.

When I booked the car, I clearly had this feeling of booking a 'Honda City'. As CD said, why pick on Honda City. Honda City for years has defined the C Segment. Selling with only Petrol Variant too it has matched the numbers of cars with 3 different engine options (Hyundai Verna). Many would agree that the brand image of Honda City is something very few cars can match. So for me it was a great feeling and still is no matter what the niggles may be.

It was because of Team-BHP and threads / posts like these I came to know about the Alternator Belt grinding noise issue, which otherwise as a lay man, I would have never known and would have been completely unnoticed. Based on the threads / posts, I could argue with the ASC guys to replace the Alternator Belt and get the issue resolved.

Now look at it 6 months down the line. Somebody who wants to buy a Honda City starts searching for reviews. The official Honda City Review is over 210 pages. There is very little chance that one will go through the whole thread. The main focus would be the official review posts from GTO. The prospective buyer may never know the niggles that people have faced. This is the thread that is going to prove useful at such times.

I know this thread can and will create a negative image of Honda City on a lot of people but it is upto the people about how they want to look at this thread.

I for one am keeping a close eye on both the threads (This one and the official review).

I did post some messages opposing the theory that Honda City is no longer niggle-free saying that there are far much worse cars than the City. I searched through the forums and there are a lot of other cars which have been discussed in the same way as City. So I think you should be giving the credit to CD for his efforts than questioning his timing and intent.

[adarsh76]

Isn't it true that any manufacturer when they launch a new car be it Honda, Hyundai, Benz, BMW, Audi, Hyundai etc. there would be niggles? Some may be minor and some may be major. As far as I know from few people who owns the previous generations of Honda City, they too had niggles in their new cars when they bought it. But during those times Honda City was a big brand in India which probably prompted many users to purposefully not having reported those issues in public forums.

But the point here, is the manufacturer or the service personnel (for this thread's sake - Honda) able to solve those niggles? As far as I am concerned, the problems I faced with my 4th Gen City (Belt noise, Doors unlocking) have been resolved to my satisfaction. I have not faced these problems again after driving for more than 1000 kms. And I am happy about the way they handled and resolved. I think I finally found an answer to my back pains. This was due to improper seat adjustment. Coming from an Accent I was trying to sit like what I used to in Accent but with some changes in the posture I'm much more comfortable and the back pain is gone. But I will wait till I do one more long drive again.

If I don't like one thing about Honda that is Perfect Honda dealership in Trivandrum where I purchased my car. I'm doing all the service at another dealership (Peninsular).

For the sake of this thread, let me ask a few questions to you CD?

1. Did the previous generation City's did not have any initial problems when they were launched?
2. Did the previous generation City's had a better build quality including interior quality? Was there no car which ported any rattles at all?
3. Did the the previous generation City's had twitching problems at high speeds and headlight issues?
4. Did none of the previous generation City's reported water leakage problems, door beading problems etc?
5. All other problems reported in New City, was it not observed in previous generations?

We cannot say 'No' because there are many owners who were not team-bhp members could have faced these issues and got it rectified by service.

To prove this fact to a large extent there is a JD power survey for long term reliability. Have a look at the link below.

http://india.jdpower.com/press-relea...lity-study-vds

The survey was published on 30th June 2014. Don't get it wrong, the Honda City in this study is the 3rd Gen or 2nd Gen. The study is for vehicles which is 30 to 40 months old vehicles. Honda City had 164 problems per 100 vehicles whereas the SX4 had the least at 149 problems per 100 vehicles (not too much of a difference).

Below is the Initial Quality Study (for new cars). Could not find graph for this.

http://autos.jdpower.com/content/pre...-study-iqs.htm

Honda City, Amaze bags the top but there are problems in the vehicles. Only thing is there are lesser problems in Honda cars.

Same is the case with 4th gen City. Problems are bound to happen, the only thing this thread came into existence is because people are reporting it unlike before which is a good thing.

But still, Honda City remains the best car in the segment. The whole world is crazy about profits. Honda too. Everyone needs to survive.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by adarsh76

But the point here, is the manufacturer or the service personnel (for this thread's sake - Honda) able to solve those niggles? As far as I am concerned, the problems I faced with my 4th Gen City (Belt noise, Doors unlocking) have been resolved to my satisfaction.

Can you please share the solutions here as well, if you don't mind? As you say the solutions are equally important for a prospective buyer to take an informed decision. Then only the thread gets balanced.

I wouldn't agree regarding the alternator belt issue because it is still not solved for some of the initial batch of owners. We should wait over a longer time frame before concluding. But yes, your door checker issue was resolved by the dealership.

Originally Posted by adarsh76

For the sake of this thread, let me ask a few questions to you CD?



1. Did the previous generation City's did not have any initial problems when they were launched?

2. Did the previous generation City's had a better build quality including interior quality? Was there no car which ported any rattles at all?

3. Did the the previous generation City's had twitching problems at high speeds and headlight issues?

4. Did none of the previous generation City's reported water leakage problems, door beading problems etc?

5. All other problems reported in New City, was it not observed in previous generations?



We cannot say 'No' because there are many owners who were not team-bhp members could have faced these issues and got it rectified by service.

The point you are trying to make is that the previous generation had issues as well, right?

We have over five members comment on this example. Two members I have quoted in the original post and three others (or more) later on. Yes, one cannot deny that niggles were not there for the earlier generation, but issues like dashboard rattling are not there as per their comments. I do not have more data on this now though.

However, what is your point here? Are you saying that the previous generation had just as many niggles but we never spoke about it? Doesn't that only make the situation worse, and the thread even more relevant?

Originally Posted by adarsh76

To prove this fact to a large extent there is a JD power survey for long term reliability. Have a look at the link below.



Honda City, Amaze bags the top but there are problems in the vehicles. Only thing is there are lesser problems in Honda cars.

.

I had an opportunity to be a part of the survey once, a month or two after we bought the Punto. They asked us about the dealership experience, car cleanliness, delivery experience, initial issues etc. Being a new car owner - I gave it a very high rating except for the dealership and first service columns.

With that experience in mind, let me emphasise that ownership reports are invaluable compared to the data sample collected by JD Power.

[Mad Max]

You guys remember the argument our politicians have on our tv shows, right? "Oh, x has been caught in a scam worth 100 crores.. what do you have to say about it?" "oh, well Y was caught last year in a scam worth 1000 crores. Let them first answer that and then we will answer your question". And this goes on back and forth.

Let's not get prejudiced. If we play a name association game, some of us would potentially equate Skoda with trouble, Maruti with cheap and Honda with quality. This doesn't mean all Skoda owners are facing troubles, all Maruti products reek of cheap cost cutting measures or all Honda vehicles are of high quality.

What's unfair is how we are arguing about it. As other's pointed out, this is just a single thread where we can discuss Honda car issues. Just like every other car out there. If someone feels like creating one for Maruti or Hyundai or Mercedes, please go ahead, take a similar effort like CD, and create one. We'll be all thankful to you.

In terms of quality, there's a perception and then there's the reality. Unfortunately, we in India, have more perceptive measure of quality than the real measures. Our government apathy adds to the problem since we never know how quality is measured here. So, with our perception of quality, we measure the sound of a door closing with a thud, the weight of a bonnet or a suede / soft touch as high quality. Those, for all you know, could be equally of bad quality or even worse, bad engineering.

Keep this thread alive, only to discuss the Honda car problems. Mods, my suggestion / request - please remove all our discussions on this (including mine) and move this to the Technical Stuff section where it will be really helpful.

[adimicra]

To clarify,
I never said that CD started this thread for bashing the City. But lots of people are just coming to this thread and bashing without sharing their own experiences which I din't like.
There needs to be a balance. No?

I personally know at least 4-5 owners of the new City and they all are pretty satisfied and haven't faced any major issues. So, it's not like that the quality is terrible. Yes, there is a drop in quality but it's not like the City is the worst car ever made ..this thread gives an impression like that.

Frankly, some of the 'issues' like paint quality, headlamp visibility, ABC pedal vibration, scratches on the HU panel etc etc are there is all cars (if you go through the test drive thread of any car, you will find some issue or the other) and there is no need to blow them out of proportion or sensationalize the matter. Some other important issues like alternator belt noise and rain water leakage are very important and needs more attention. I would urge the City owners to come in and pitch in with their "real life experiences" on these issues and how Honda has addressed or failed to address those.
Are these rectified in the newer batches or still existing?

This thread gives a very one-sided view of the City which is not right IMO.

One more question to @crazy_driver - What was the need to mention Ciaz along with the variants and pricing on this thread?

[adarsh76]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

However, what is your point here? Are you saying that the previous generation had just as many niggles but we never spoke about it? Doesn't that only make the situation worse, and the thread even more relevant?

I had an opportunity to be a part of the survey once, a month or two after we bought the Punto. They asked us about the dealership experience, car cleanliness, delivery experience, initial issues etc. Being a new car owner - I gave it a very high rating except for the dealership and first service columns.

With that experience in mind, let me emphasise that ownership reports are invaluable compared to the data sample collected by JD Power.

Exactly my point is all cars previous or new gen had niggles or would continue to have.

My point is the topic heading "Are Honda cars niggle-free anymore?". This is irrelevant, because it was never niggle free. Nor does any car.

Any car remains relatively niggle free if we service it on time and take care of the car just like it's our kid. My Accent ran till 110000 kms without any major problems like engine issues or gearbox issues. The problems were with AC (Not compressor it was the cooling coil), suspensions (had to replace at 100000 kms, bound to happen for any car in Kerala). This is only because I took care of it religiously.

The solution for my Honda City belt noise - Service just replaced the belt. When I told that replacing the belt may not fix the issue. They said we will see further if it's coming again. Anyways, it's under warranty so why should I worry? They assured it's not a serious problem at all.

Door unlocking - It was an electrical earthing issue. They fixed it. Could happen in any car. I checked with my friend who works with Maruti Suzuki (direct employee). He said to me problems were reported in many new Maruti cars also for the same issue. The issues appeared like humming noise from speakers, headlight blinking etc. Not specific to Honda cars or City.

Back pain (Seat Issues) - I am very much good with city driving with change of posture and seat position. No back pain at all. Back pain has a lot do with our physical health. If overweight, definitely this will occur. My BMI is slightly high at 25.10, should be 24.9. Anyways, will put a final comment once I do one more long drive.

JD Power - I too had a survey 1 month after purchasing the car on the sales experience. I gave a very honest feedback and the score for Perfect Honda from my side was 7/10. The Perfect Honda Sales Executive called me and apologized for some areas which they did mistakes. But their service still remains pathetic.

It was a good survey lasting about 30 mins. The questions were to the point. Once they call me for the quality survey, I would definitely give another honest feedback. I guess they're doing a good job.

[searacer932]

There is no doubt that few niggles have been reported in the new Honda City and I suppose that this true for most manufacturers,if not all, that the vehicles that they produce is not going to be niggle free in the first 1 or 2 years. I thought it would be a risk to buy an Indian manufactured car in it's first 2-3 years of product evolution and now thread proves that may be it's a risk to buy even a a Japanese/Korean manufactured car in its first 2-3 years of evolution. One interesting point that people need to check is to see if the same niggles are present in the Thai version of the City. Will be interesting to know the answer. Also, may be another point for people to ponder -

Would you be happy to own a car which gives niggling problems (grinding noise, rattling dashboard etc) or happy to own a car which has no niggles but has fairly fundamental problems (examples poor braking in non-ABS variant, compromise to structural integrity, 0 rating in NCAP)

[Seran Manian]

Let us all treat this as a thread as a point where the niggles are discussed and possible solutions are shared. Let us appreciate C_D for his efforts to compile all that was discussed in the main thread. Listed below are the niggles posted by him. I have tried to classify them in to there groups as below (Correct if I am wrong):

Serious Engine related issues:
===================
Alternator Belt Grinding noise
Grinding sound from clutch

Issues one cannot leave and live with (though not related to engine)
=======================
Rain Water Leakage in Cabin
Car Twitching Direction at high speed

Minor Niggles: (Solutions not out of reach or can be managed individually)
==============================================
Back pain for Driver
Lamps misting
Dash board rattle
Overall Rattle from seats / plastic
PianoBlack Quality issue, Plastic chipping off
Hard Gear Shifts
Horn Vibration in Pedals
Miss aligned panels

Many issues are minor and the owners will become happy once it is solved and might forget to post that they got is solved. As already mentioned I don't have any serious issue but for a notchy reverse gear.

I would appreciate if the respective owners update about the solutions got for major issues (Would be happy if they provide that for minor niggles too )