[srivatsahg]

I have a GP90 and I took the Avventura for a test spin and I still found the gear ratios and the turbo lag same as before. Nothing has been changed in the Engine department.

If FIAT was so lazy to tweak the gear box, then they would have just included an after market ECU tuning box like Race Dynamics or Petes (just like what we have for TATA ZEST) to make it more peppier and probably the sales of actual cars than the engines.

Originally Posted by PVPal

I was referring to the changes made in the Avventura 90 ps being applied to the Evo and Linea 90 ps. I am pretty sure that the (better) engine tune on the Avventura has not been made available on the Evo and Linea 90 ps. Correct me if I am wrong.

Also, I think the gear ratios are unchanged compared to the Avventura.

[SchumiFan]

Fiat sells two cars in India. Punto and Linea. IMHO Avventura is a cosmetic upgrade over Punto. There has been no change in the line-up for the past 5 years since the first launch. A face-lift has been offered but the issues with mechanics haven't been corrected.

Yet you see Maruti getting AMT from a FIAT's subsidary and implementing in their small cars while Fiat have been sitting on their hands all along. If this doesn't show what Fiat aren't doing right, I am not sure what will.

You have the tech and you have the source, yet your incompetence is making you less desirable as a brand as the days pass by.

Considering the engine deals and the very less number of Fiat cars sold, Fiat should probably ask Maruti to do the servicing. They will grow exponentially

[vinit.merchant]

Originally Posted by SchumiFan

Considering the engine deals and the very less number of Fiat cars sold, Fiat should probably ask Maruti to do the servicing. They will grow exponentially

This could very well change the fortunes of FIAT no doubt, but a lot will still depend on the parts cost and availability which has been a sore point time and again.

[PVPal]

Originally Posted by srivatsahg

I have a GP90 and I took the Avventura for a test spin and I still found the gear ratios and the turbo lag same as before. Nothing has been changed in the Engine department.

Check out the Team-BHP review by CrazyDriver, and the AutoCar review: Both mention the change in tune of the engine as well as changes in the gearbox.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

For starters, the Avventura feels refined compared to the Punto 90. There is none of that diesel clatter at lower rpms that you would notice in the Punto..

And then comes the driveability. The Avventura uses a more linear state of tune than the Punto 90hp. Turbo-lag feels reduced, but the downside is that the mid-range doesn't feel as punchy as before..

The gearbox feels improved as well and the gears row well through the gates. However, it still isn't perfect since there is a rubbery feel to the way it slots.

[srivatsahg]

Originally Posted by PVPal

Check out the Team-BHP review by CrazyDriver, and the AutoCar review: Both mention the change in tune of the engine as well as changes in the gearbox.

Yes they do mention they have tweaked the engine response. But as someone who owns or who has driven a GP90 doesn't see the turbo respond below 2000rpm mark. For this reason I have to down shift frequently which is same situation as before.

I'm not ruling off the tuning part completely but its just that I don't see the end result as I would expect normally in an upgrade.

[veyron_head]

20% revenue from cars and the rest from engines! Sure, doesn't augur well for them in the longer term. I hope Fiat does want to continue their identity as a car company rather than a engine company. Fiat has several positive things, its great looking cars, sturdy build, now a seperate ASS (evolving though) etc. They should make full use of this by expanding their portfolio and launching new cars. It is also a pity that Fiat's subsidiary sells AMT to Maruti but Fiat itself doesn't see it fit to use it in their cars.

[SchumiFan]

Originally Posted by PVPal

Check out the Team-BHP review by CrazyDriver, and the AutoCar review: Both mention the change in tune of the engine as well as changes in the gearbox.

There is this info as well in the same thread.

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Fiat officials present at the media drive replied in the negative to my query regarding any changes to the engine or its tuning. However, many of us reviewers felt otherwise.

Until we have the official line (we have the 'almost' official line) We cannot be sure of any changes to the engine or Gear Box, IMHO.

[GTO]

Originally Posted by searacer932

The thread title is misleading. It seems to suggest that there is a relation between the significant growth in revenue and the split. However the figures quoted by other members do indicate that much of the revenue is in fact coming from the engine sale and that significant growth in revenue would have been achieved even without the split.

Thank you, thread renamed .

Please also use the reporting functionality for a quicker turnaround to such requests.

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by The Observer

....
Was happy when they split from TATA , especially in the TATA showrooms, FIAT cars were not exactly their priority.
....

This and similar to this has been said time and again. But its not as simple as that IMHO. There were specifically trained personnel flashing FIAT branded apparel in the showrooms & they did try to sell the Fiat cars. Its not that the TML showrooms didn't want to sell FIAT cars. Why would they do so? They also have margins on FIAT cars!

The thing is, in the showroom, a Punto is parked 180 deg opposite a Vista. Back then, the Vista was about 50k to 1L (ballpark estimates) cheaper based on trim, offered the SAME engine, much cheaper maintenance, much more passenger space (and less space compared to Punto). When someone walks into a TML showroom, there is a high chance that their car buying is as budget bound as it is by liking. So why would a person buy a Punto over a Vista? Especially given its low resale & niggling issues?

I've been through that exact experience when I bought my Vista from a TML-Fiat shared showroom. On that day, a FIAT marketing manager was in the store for a visit. Dressed immaculately in the red FIAT blazer, the gentleman asked me why I wasn't showing interest in the Punto and buying Vista when my father liked the Punto. I asked him the following -
1. I'm 6'3" and most in my family are the same. Where will we fit in more comfort?

2. Why exactly should I pay about 1L more for the Punto Emotion when I get the same features in a Vista Aura?

3. If I were you and not wearing that blazer, which one would you buy?

His face already told me he had no answer, but he had to continue his already wasted effort of winning a customer - as he was wearing a FIAT blazer...

So thats how it was. The Vista made more economic sense & outsold the Punto. Not that TML showrooms didn't sell Punto on purpose.

[ant_vas]

Punto with that lethargic 1.2 engine isn't going to cut the deal against the superb Kseries from Maruti, and the Kappa series from Hyundai

Do you own punto with 1.2 engine? If not, better get to know the experience of punto owners with 1.2L engines. Agreed the maruti's, the hyundai's of the world come out with lighter engines which are fuel efficient. But how safe do you feel inside them, especially when you are cursing at 100kmph on highway?

For a car which weigh's in around 1100kgs, the 1.2L engine is surprisingly good. Drives great in traffic conditions and can cruise at 100kmph for hours together on highways with good mileage to go with it.

[Reinhard]

Originally Posted by ant_vas

Do you own punto with 1.2 engine? If not, better get to know the experience of punto owners with 1.2L engines. Agreed the maruti's, the hyundai's of the world come out with lighter engines which are fuel efficient. But how safe do you feel inside them, especially when you are cursing at 100kmph on highway?

For a car which weigh's in around 1100kgs, the 1.2L engine is surprisingly good. Drives great in traffic conditions and can cruise at 100kmph for hours together on highways with good mileage to go with it.

I think you are mixing things a bit. MSIL/Hyundai cars may not be as safe as a Punto, but that doesn't relate to the engine performance at all. The Kappa and KSeries engine are certainly the better petrol engines on our road along with the iVtec. Its an achievement that they are powerful + fuel efficient.

I've driven the FIAT 1.2 FIRE engine. And there is no doubt that it's power output is NOT sufficient for the heavy cars like the Punto or Vista (petrol now discontinued). The car is heavier + the engine is under performing on output parameters. That combination, certainly kills all the fun from driving a car as dynamic as a Punto. Trust me, with an agile and powerful engine, the Punto is a lot FUN to drive rather than just cruising.

[ant_vas]

I think you are mixing things a bit. MSIL/Hyundai cars may not be as safe as a Punto, but that doesn't relate to the engine performance at all. The Kappa and KSeries engine are certainly the better petrol engines on our road along with the iVtec. Its an achievement that they are powerful + fuel efficient.

I've driven the FIAT 1.2 FIRE engine. And there is no doubt that it's power output is NOT sufficient for the heavy cars like the Punto or Vista (petrol now discontinued). The car is heavier + the engine is under performing on output parameters. That combination, certainly kills all the fun from driving a car as dynamic as a Punto. Trust me, with an agile and powerful engine, the Punto is a lot FUN to drive rather than just cruising.

i agree that the fiat 1.2l engine might not be better than the other engines out there. all i wanted to say is the 1.2L engine on a 1100kg car might not be a best option but owning a 1.2l active variant of the evo, the engine does its job.

Even a neighbor of mine who brought a 1.2 dynamic evo is also all praise for the car's performance. other can disagree with me on this one. And in a city like bangalore where your avg speed is around 10-15kmph, even if you get a Ferrari, the fun element will still be missing .

Yup on the highway you might feel left behind, but not everyone's a racer and am sure there are people who like to enjoy their driving than racing!

[trinity0114]

Originally Posted by GTO

As expected, it's the engine business that's bringing in the $$$$.

Even if we take a back-of-the-envelope figure of 6.0 lakhs / cars invoice value (mix of Puntos & Lineas...again, rough figure), the turnover from selling cars is merely 700 crore (780 crore @ 6.5 lakh / car invoice value). That's less than 20% of their turnover.

Whatever way you look at it, ~3000 crores of that revenue is coming from engines (majorly), engine licencing fee (mainly Maruti), spare parts (small component) and other businesses.

Fiat India is an engine company first, then a car company. Honestly, it's a great USP to have. No other manufacturer can boast of 3,000 crores of revenue from engines! Of course, the biggest challenge is if Maruti develops their own diesel and stops using Fiat's motors. The Italians are really in trouble then. It will happen sooner or later.

This is not the complete story. Apart from the domestic car sales & the engine business, Fiat India is also exporting cars made in their local plant to right-hand drive markets & that business is also bringing in money for them which is reflecting in their revenues, so the 80% theory from the engine business isn't correct.

[Rubbertramps]

Originally Posted by Reinhard

I think you are mixing things a bit. MSIL/Hyundai cars may not be as safe as a Punto, but that doesn't relate to the engine performance at all. The Kappa and KSeries engine are certainly the better petrol engines on our road along with the iVtec. Its an achievement that they are powerful + fuel efficient.

I've driven the FIAT 1.2 FIRE engine. And there is no doubt that it's power output is NOT sufficient for the heavy cars like the Punto or Vista (petrol now discontinued). The car is heavier + the engine is under performing on output parameters. That combination, certainly kills all the fun from driving a car as dynamic as a Punto. Trust me, with an agile and powerful engine, the Punto is a lot FUN to drive rather than just cruising.

Let me tell you as an owner of a recent KSeries engine on a Swift. It is one hell of a lethargic engine having tuned for fuel efficiency. It gets all drowsy in the 2nd gear and never pulls. What is the fun with such an tuned engine in the city. The engines are better, no doubt, but the customer is not benefited from it in a everyday scenario.

[i74js]

FIAT just wants to sell engines; selling cars alongside is a licence condition of the Indian Government.

They cannot simply close down their car production and only sell engines, they would much rather prefer that way.

With 100 odd dealers and half hearted attempt to sell just 2 cars made out of same platform tells a lot about their present and future plans.

I doubt on the fate of their Indian operations post closure of engine procurement agreement between FIAT and MSIL which has been renewed for next 3 years, may be then the AMT units might let them survive in India !

Too bad for Indian buyers and equally bad for FIAT.

Cheers