[caged_nomad]

Does anyone know if they have reopened the registration for 15 year old vehicles in gurgaon?

[mustangboss302]

It's for the whole of NCR Region which includes Gurgaon Noida Faridabad Ghaziabad and Ballabgarh

[Leepower]

NGT is at it again. Now it has asked all states to file report on pollution from vehicles by May 1. Delhi ban also started like this. Is the tribunal now going to ban 15-year-old vehicles across the nation??? How can you compare pollution in Delhi to that of lets say Arunachal or Nagaland???
The Centre had earlier planned to challenge the order regarding the ban on vehicles in Delhi. The government has maintained that fitness and not AGE should be the criteria. Let's see what happens next!!!
Source
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/46958809.cms

[mustangboss302]

Nothing else can happen here but for a nation wide protest against the ban. Plus if the truck owners go on strike the nation will suffer because of jacked up price of essential commodities. So in the interest of the nation the central government will, like what Mr. Nitin Gadkari said earlier will challenge this ban in the supreme court.

[sgiitk]

Now the NGT is trying to spread its tentacles across the nation. They have asked for reports from all states.

[mustangboss302]

Though they have but it will not hold good till the time the Central Government is in the opposition challenging the ban in the Supreme Court. I'm sure no one will like to part with their possession and if the public start demanding compensation for the old car the government would sure get bankrupt. Moreover it will be difficult for a person who is 60 years old to buy a new car from the money he saved for his retirement and with no source of income at this age.

[Kamal]

That's me - I'm 67 have an old car which is in an excellent condition & am in no position to buy s new car.
Since Jan I've stopped plying it for fear of it getting impounded and am virtually confined to the house.
NGT appears to be more interested in coming across as neroic crusaders than in thinking thru sensible, practical & sustainable measures to contain pollution.
I wish the central govt does something quickly to counter these knee jerk measures.

[mayankk]

Originally Posted by Kamal

That's me - I'm 67 have an old car which is in an excellent condition & am in no position to buy s new car.
Since Jan I've stopped plying it for fear of it getting impounded and am virtually confined to the house.
NGT appears to be more interested in coming across as neroic crusaders than in thinking thru sensible, practical & sustainable measures to contain pollution.
I wish the central govt does something quickly to counter these knee jerk measures.

You've got these guys bang on with your typo( I think it's a typo, but nevertheless cool if it wasn't).

They do seem to be Nero-ic crusaders. Will keep playing their 10 year 15 year strings, while the real causes will be allowed to burn the air quality away.

[ringoism]

"Desperate times call for desperate measures" the old saying goes; and one can hardly be blamed for grasping at all possible straws re: the seemingly impossible air quality situation in Delhi: it is obviously horrible, as my burning, coughing lungs remind me within hours of entering the capital on any visit.

But we too often see reactionary governments slashing and thrusting at everything in sight when the pressure is on. It is dramatic and looks serious, of course, but swordplay tends to get pretty messy (and dangerous for either party!), and it has to be acknowledged that the careful surgeon's knife is generally a more constructive and lower-risk way of actually solving problems to the benefit of all involved.

I really do wonder sometimes who exactly the members of this "National Green Tribunal" actually are - whether they be astute researchers / observers / statisticians re: ground-level realities; or else (I fear) ivory-tower scientific "experts" in this field, or else (I again fear) the usual political appointees, who, having frighteningly little actual experience or information to go on and the means to remain unaffected by most of the laws they create, have a propensity to favor solutions equally extreme and ineffective...

What I feel compelled to say here as simply an observer (no expert) re: ground-level realities here around Manali, where a similar ban has been initiated for all points north of Vashisht chowk, and being personally either the victim or alleged beneficiary of all this, that I am absolutely certain that many of the measures being taken will prove completely ineffective towards achieving the desired results.

Now, ineffectiveness is itself not very desirable, but it's even worse when failed initiatives have been implemented with such high levels of cost / inconvenience / economic debilitation / basic unfairness / loss of personal liberty for a significant percentage of a given population. Please don't experiment on us, especially if at our own cost!

I have moreover just never understood the logic of creating new laws when existing ones, which actually could be effective, are knowingly not implemented / routinely circumvented / completely ignored. It is not as though enforcing a 10-year ban will really be easier than enforcing PUC center guidelines / procedures. Please THINK!

What I know for sure (if anyone in the gov't / NGT is listening - and they should be):

1. Beyond not even actually checking vehicles (i.e., bothering to put the probe in the tailpipe), one local checking center (this shows the extent of things) even kept the number plate photo on record and offered to simply deliver the PUC certificate to our workplace when it was next due, to save us (and them) the trouble of our even showing up. Been to three centers here, and all are simply printing certificates (one seemed to have a policeman standing by doing nothing). So obviously there are not going to be any gains here - gross polluters will ascend the road to Rohtang Pass (or wherever else) along with the clean ones.

2. Even if they WERE checking each vehicle, it would not be effective, because the test is simply too rudimentary. Authorities in the U.S. finally mandated dynomometer-based pollution testing of vehicles for this reason: how much an engine will pollute at idle is simply no good indication of what it's going to pollute under actual, loaded driving conditions.

3. I pretty much daily see brand-new vehicles up here (the TDI Indigo taxis as one consistently notorious example) smoking profusely thick/black, and many 15-year-old diesels running perfectly clean from a visual standpoint (visuals actually being a solid indicator of particulate emissions). Now, why a new computer-controlled BSIV/V vehicle should be combusting anything but ideally, or even worse under the conditions than many older vehicles, is a question worth looking into - there must be problems on the original certification end of things, but anyway, if anyone doubts what I'm saying as being rather common rather than the exception, it is easily provable by setting up a video camera on a tripod for an hour along any local roadside here. And these Indigos (TATA/regulating bodies, are you listening?), while the prime example, are not the only new cars exhibiting "gross pollution" up here.

4. It's the overall "carbon footprint" we need to be looking at here. Even if vehicle age WERE consistently proportional to emission levels under whichever conditions, as noted elsewhere, the owners of a great many barely-driven, perfectly maintained older vehicles end up severely victimized here: Their current actions least affect the pollution problem, yet they've been most specifically targeted. Moreover, having been forced to buy new vehicles at great cost, their personal sacrifices are sadly going to contribute the least towards improvements, also.

I'd probably put ourselves in that category: we've got a 14-year-old diesel vehicle we never see smoke out the back of; we typically put about 30km a week on it; we've been to Rohtang Pass once in 30 months, practically never load the car to capacity; etc... How many local, private vehicles are plying the Rohtang road regularly? Practically none. Compare this to tourist Indigo TDI's generally smoking like Hell, putting in a minimum of 700km a week (6 runs weekly to Rohtang), being maintained as little as possible, generally loaded to capacity / driven at excessive speeds, etc, and you see where at least 99% of the impact is clearly coming from. What is my one Rohtang run in two years (for a family outing) compared to the taxi-wallah's hundreds? And yet I am banned / have my vehicle confiscated, and he is free to travel there daily for the next ten years. Sorry, but this is STUPID, and there's where I start getting pretty sure the NGT folks have their heads up their respective... eh, never mind. As with the heavy truck situation in the capital, FIX YOUR FOCUS WHERE THE ACTUAL, MEASURABLE SOURCE OF THE PROBLEM LIES! Some basic problem-solving skills (if not plain common sense) would be helpful here!

5. There ways of dealing with this problem, whether in Delhi, Manali, or other sensitive areas, that are preferable to outright bans on 10/15 year olds - It might be worth studying the actions of CARB (the California Air Resources Board) among others, who had to take some pretty dramatic measures starting back in the 1960's, when they realized that, largely as a function of local geography and vehicle population, their pollution levels were far worse than similarly-sized cities elsewhere. Few ideas from around the world: A) Ban the sale/registration of new diesel vehicles in affected cities / regions; B) Introduce low-emission (California) / Delhi-only variants; C) Increase the stringency of inspections / testing (dynomometers, etc) and frequency of spot-checks on testing stations; D) (EU?) Increase registration fees for older vehicles (still not "fair" in some situations, but provides a basic incentive to retire older cars, as well as the freedom to continue using them for those desiring to or with no other option); E) For diesels in particular, focus more on the particulate-indicating visual check - use roadside video to identify/document gross polluters and ban / challan ACTUALLY polluting vehicles; F) (Mexico) ban in a more limited fashion, i.e., private number plates ending in "1" banned Mondays, "2&3" banned Tuesdays, etc - Instantly decreasing both traffic volume and pollution by at least 10% every day of the week, while leaving the overall mobility of owners only slightly reduced - "off" days can be planned for / worked around in most cases). Also easier for police to identify vehicles in violation via number plate, even in heavy traffic (vs. document checks or even RF identification); G) (mentioned elsewhere): special registrations / guidelines for limited-use, vintage/classic vehicles. The time has really come for this sort of thing in India.

Many Thanks,
Eric

[nutmello]

friends, this is in today's economic times. it looks like govt is going ahead with implementing Court ( NGT) order in right spirit. It looks likely that it could become a country wide ban on older vehicles.


2 Scrapyards for Older Vehicles on Anvil: Gadkari
Ketan Thakkar
Mumbai:


The ministry of road transport and highways is planning to set up two vehicle scrapyards in the southern and western parts of India, said Nitin Gadkari, Union minister for roads, transport and highways, in Mumbai last week. This is significant in the backdrop of a recent decision by the National Green Tribunal to ban dieselrun vehicles older than 10 years in Delhi, since once this is enforced, hundreds of thousands of vehicles will be reduced to scrap, which could have implications for the environment.
Gadkari emphasised that scrap is an important issue and one has to find ways of how and where to treat a `scrapped' vehicle. “We are trying to create a zone, where the scrapping and processing of vehicles can be done.These may come up at the ports on the outskirts of Chennai and in the west, preferably at Kandla,“ he said.

his announcement has been very encouraging for the automotive industry , which has been clamouring for a scrappage scheme to create demand in the market, which has been sluggish for months, if not years.




[mustangboss302]

Nutmello, I checked the ET Thrice and could not find the article you mentioned about Mr. Gadkari stressing on scrap yards. Please post the link if possible.

[mayankk]

Cross posting from the 10 year old diesels thread:

Originally Posted by naru

Sample some of the "bans" by NGT in just the past few weeks:

http://www.hindustantimes.com/newdel...1-1334769.aspx [on diesel vehicles]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/46840533.cms [on construction in Gurgaon & Noida]

http://post.jagran.com/ngt-extends-s...and-1428314713 [on construction in Rajaji National park]

http://www.financialexpress.com/arti...streets/59679/ [directive to AAP to clean up garbage]

http://articles.economictimes.indiat...nment-ministry [on rafting in Uttarakhand]

http://indianexpress.com/article/cit...air-pollution/ [directive on air pollution in delhi]

NGT seems to be just a publicity hungry body, going from one ban to another without any sort of mechanism to see if any of the bans are actually implemented. There has also been NGT bans on parking on roads in Delhi!

Check this status report on an earlier ban on vehicles more than 15 years old. Only a few thousand cars affected, according to Delhi govt officials. Pathetic!
http://www.hindustantimes.com/newdel...1-1334263.aspx

I read gadkari's statement that the automotive bans are an infringement on the MV act. Now he seems to be pounding a different drum, about scrap yards. Are they kow-towing to the auto lobby, willing to incorporate this into the Act?
I wish these guys could be clear in their stand.

Also, can someone clarify, if the PIL has been dismissed, can/will the government challenge this again? And if they do, this becomes sub-judice, and not in force till its cleared? There's just so much smoke blowing, figurative, up some place.

[Automaton]

Originally Posted by Kamal

That's me - I'm 67 have an old car which is in an excellent condition & am in no position to buy s new car.
Since Jan I've stopped plying it for fear of it getting impounded and am virtually confined to the house.
NGT appears to be more interested in coming across as neroic crusaders than in thinking thru sensible, practical & sustainable measures to contain pollution.
I wish the central govt does something quickly to counter these knee jerk measures.

Sorry to hear that.
Knee-jerk bans which have become the hallmark of this government and they are not thinking things through and not engaging in dialogue to know the other side of the story and how their rules affect ordinary commuters and people who are dependant on automobiles for their livelihood.

Join the group to fight the ban.
Right now we need numbers to show the strength:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/saveourclassics

[sad:)]

Any recent updates from Delhi, after Supreme Court's decision on this issue ? Any recent experiences on this ban, please share them.

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by Automaton

Knee-jerk bans which have become the hallmark of this government and they

Actually it is not the government but judiocary we are living in.
If you see carefully all the members of this tribunal ( and similar others are) ex-judges.

Unrelated but by strange conincidence hanging of Nithari killer was first stayed even after rejection by president by introducing a new clause of open hearning in middle of night and then a later HC commuted the death sentence to life which was probably first case when lower court overturned decision of SC and president.

Just think about timings and if you find that coincidentally there is an on going tussel due to national judicial accountability act