[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by im_srini

I have to admit that I do not see the fascination of those who wish to see a rear-engine, rear-wheel-drive, city runabout.
Having an engine at the back complicates a lot of things, like cooling, & having to convey the controls to the clutch & the accelerator all the way to the rear, & having the fuel tank at the front.
The cars being reminisced about had much lower power densities & could even make do with air cooling.
I hate to break it to the people who think that being rear-wheel-drive makes the Nano a BMW - it does not !
Even our everyday 'ricks' are air-cooled & rear-engined, that does not make them Porsches; there's nothing great about it.
So let's not weigh down the engineers by nostalgia & instead hope for better, & perhaps conventional, engineering.

On the contrary, there is everything great about a rickshaw. A low powered, cheap three wheeler, which can do a easy 70kmph, returns 30kmpl, runs on cng, transports 4 (3+driver) in comfort, is shaded from the elements, is easy hop on hop off, has solved the miserable lack of public transport in most cities, is quite eco friendly,was manufactured in 1960s, whose next best is the idiotic tuktuk in Bangkok, should be given a environmental prize for design. Its our foolishness that we choose to ignore simple and low cost solutions, yet harp praise on the silly google car or some gizmo from apple and the likes.

[tushky]

Why Tata Pelican test vehicle cost almost 13 Lakhs? also check the price of Kite 4 exported to USA.

[discoverwild]

Originally Posted by tushky

Why Tata Pelican test vehicle cost almost 13 Lakhs? also check the price of Kite 4 exported to USA.

Prototypes cost a hell lot more than actual production line.

[Viju]

Originally Posted by tushky

Why Tata Pelican test vehicle cost almost 13 Lakhs?

Prototype vehicles are made without tooling or sometimes what is known as 'soft tooling' (means specially made tooling to produce only a small number of parts). This makes the production costs very high. The Pelican prototype costs 'only' 13 lakhs because it shares major parts (like the body) with the Nano. And mostly, initial prototypes are built in proto shops taking days or weeks.

For all-new models, first prototypes of even bare basic models like Alto cost in excess of a crore rupees per vehicle.

[Majumdarda]

*-* Test Mule Spotted *-*

We were going for a small evening ride and spotted the camouflaged Nano waiting just a few steps ahead of the Forbes gate. It was quite dark at that time and thus taking images would have meant little for our eyes.

The communication went somewhat as below:-

Me : Is this the new Nano?
Driver : Yes.
Me : Can I take some images please?
Driver : No, not allowed.
Me : Is this the petrol or the diesel version?
Driver : Petrol.
Me : What is special in this model?
Driver : Its 3 Cylinder, the earlier one was 2 cylinder. Its powerful than the earlier one.
Me : How much CC?
Driver : No idea.
Me : Is this still a rear mounted engine?
Driver : Yes.
Me : Is there any decrease in the boot space as I think that the engine size will be bigger.
Driver : No idea.
Me : Is this a rear hatch opening model?
Driver : Yes.
Me : What about the colors that will be available on this model?
Driver : No idea. The company will decide that.
Me : This particular model seems to be having the stickers on a white body!
Driver : Yes.
Me : What about the interior?
Driver : It has better comfortable seating.
Me : Does it have in built sound system?
Driver : Yes.
Me : I heard that the new Nano model will have something like Tiago sound system. Is that right?
Driver : Yes, yes, Tiago system. (sounded excited)
Me : Does that mean it has the Harman sound system?
Driver : The top model has the Harman sound system along with other features.
Me : What other features?
Driver : I do not know.
Me : Can I take some images of the inside please?
Driver : No, its not allowed.
Me : Is this model going to be launched anytime soon or its a next year test vehicle?
Driver : This year it will be launched.
Me : I am very much interested to book one, When do you think it may be available?
Driver : May be Diwali time.
Me : What may be the price bracket for this model?
Driver : I am not sure about that.
Me : Still, you may have some ideas. It will help me indeed.
Driver : May be something around 4L on road for the top model.
Me : Astonished...
Me : The ORVMs seems to have changed their position. Is it? Are they internally adjustable.
Driver : I do not know. I am in a hurry, please excuse me.
Me : Thank you for all the details.


I do understand that I missed some very important questions like does this have Air bags or other safety features or does it have AMT? Sorry for that. But we were so excited seeing the Nano, right in front of us, that we just forgot to ask those. Overall the interior had a very dark colored seat upholstery with rear mounted speakers. I could see part of the music system display and it seemed to have been fixed (not an after market). The audio was probably paused. The driver side definitely has power windows. Overall we were pretty excited about the particular model other than the price.

Lets see what other news surface before the actual launch.

Regards,

[Sutripta]

Could you please expand on this

Originally Posted by shashanka

They have little to do with either engineering integrity, durability or reliability.

Regards
Sutripta

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

Could you please expand on this
Regards
Sutripta

Hello Sutripta, nice hearing from you after this gap!

Now for the matter at hand. I have always held that good engineering practice (in a passenger car, in this case) requires that the working stresses in a dynamic system (like a moving car) must be distributed as rationally as possible in order to distribute the wear & tear also between the working components. In this case the front and rear axles.

As per current FWD practice, the front wheels and associated undercarriage/drive-line components have to absorb and digest(!) the forces generated by full-lock steering under max. torque at max. allowable speed (taking the worst case scenario for design purposes). One can visualise the stresses created under these circumstances & the resulting wear & tear. With all the advantages of universal joints/CV joints/double cardan couplings and their state-of-the-art iterations, the stresses and strains in the drive-line, steering & suspension components of the front axle still remain the same - and its associated wear & tear.

If the above scenario was changed to RWD and FWS (front wheel steering), the principal difference would be to re-distribute the forces - all steering forces focusing on the front axle set-up (ignoring the minor aberration of all-wheel steering!) and all traction forces, i.e. torque, going to the rear axle. The result, in my view, would also effectively distribute the wear & tear between the two axles, contributing to better durability & reliability.

In my humble view this is good engineering practice. May not be good economics , but certainly engineering integrity, durability and reliability targets would be served. There are also several other aspects to this issue, but since these were the points mentioned (engineering, reliability & durability) I think I shall hold my horses!

I admit that I am deeply biased towards RWD (right from my engineering college days, when we were all as poor as door-mice!) and I have made my views on the subject clear in various threads in this forum. I also accept that there is a strong divergence of views/opinions on this, depending on one's current standing.

I also believe in the old adage - to each his own!

I look forward to your views on the above.
Cheers,
Shashanka

[vivekgk]

@shashanka: Couldn't agree more. The FWD is more about ease of packaging and manufacturing than any technical advantage. One important plus point for FWD is that it makes cars safer for novice drivers, as a heavy foot is less likely to result in an uncontrollable spinout. There's a reason almost all driver oriented, sporty cars are RWD.

Back on topic, I think that the current Nano is perfect in terms of interior space, packaging, and maneuverability. What is could use is a bit more sportiness, and more grip for better handling. I also think that it could afford to be a bit lower and use a slightly wider track. I believe that what the Pelican needs to be is the ultimate city runabout that can handle the occasional highway run without running out of breath. The interiors definitely need an upgrade to the HorizonNext design language, and be a bit more plush. The only way to do this all and remain within the 4 lacs price bracket, is to use an existing platform that's cheap to build. From that perspective, using the Nano as the base platform makes a lot of sense, especially considering how heavily Tata has invested in the Nano.

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by vivekgk

@shashanka: Couldn't agree more. The FWD is more about ease of packaging and manufacturing than any technical advantage. One important plus point for FWD is that it makes cars safer for novice drivers, as a heavy foot is less likely to result in an uncontrollable spinout. There's a reason almost all driver oriented, sporty cars are RWD.
Back on topic, I think that the current Nano is perfect in terms of interior space, packaging, and maneuverability. What is could use is a bit more sportiness, and more grip for better handling. I also think that it could afford to be a bit lower and use a slightly wider track. I believe that what the Pelican needs to be is the ultimate city runabout that can handle the occasional highway run without running out of breath. The interiors definitely need an upgrade to the HorizonNext design language, and be a bit more plush. The only way to do this all and remain within the 4 lacs price bracket, is to use an existing platform that's cheap to build. From that perspective, using the Nano as the base platform makes a lot of sense, especially considering how heavily Tata has invested in the Nano.

Hi Vivek, your point about the FWDers being safer for novices is well taken. I had mentioned this earlier, that the serious plus point of FWD is the nimble & agile handling for wheel-bases under 2.5 meters - beyond which they become progressively more impractical. As the Americans learned the hard way in the 70's & 80's when their luxury battleships (like the Cadillac Eldorado & the Oldsmobile Tornado, both nearly 19ft long!) were launched with FWD & promptly proceeded to sink immediately!

However your views about the future possibilities of the Pelican lay-out - in which my soul, tho' very much with you, is restrained a bit by practicalities! When you remember the difficulties faced by early enthusiasts due to the unpredictable handling of the early 911s, the lurking pitfalls of the rear-engine lay-out (specially if the engine C.G. falls behind the rear axle centre-line, adding to the rear overhang - a potentially disastrous situation!) becomes apparent!

This led to the hunt for that holy grail - the mid-engine layout, with the engine C.G. falling within the wheelbase of the car. Obviously one doesn't expect such exotica from Tata's for what is certainly meant to be a volume seller at the market entry point. Therefore it would be very interesting to see how Tata Motors meet the future requirements of the Pelican which you (and others in this thread) have clearly highlighted.

[Sutripta]

Originally Posted by shashanka

I also believe in the old adage - to each his own!

I look forward to your views on the above.

Taking a leaf from your post, lets say - to each his own (mine are very different from yours), and let it go at that.

Just another observation: Hyperbole, and being taken seriously, normally don't go hand in hand.

Regards
Sutripta

[1100D]

Originally Posted by shashanka

When you remember the difficulties faced by early enthusiasts due to the unpredictable handling of the early 911s, the lurking pitfalls of the rear-engine lay-out (specially if the engine C.G. falls behind the rear axle centre-line, adding to the rear overhang - a potentially disastrous situation!) becomes apparent!

I have been following your posts on this thread with a lot of Fandom!

The 911 was a powerful car (so was the 356 prior to it), even the Beetle wasn't too underpowered, however, the Rear engine Rear drive layout was actually quite sweet in the Fiat 500 (Nuova) of the late 50's.

Yes, cars like that died, many hold Sir Alec Issigonis as the main culprit, though he himself wasn't too proud of the Mini and that Front Drive Transverse engine layout has been around since the 1930's in DKW's and the exact start of that layout is probably a bit murky now.

I, myself, am looking forward to the Pelican, even if I dont necessarily need it, but just for the sake of connecting to the Cinquecento and the Beetle in a very remote way in modern times (Unfortunately the modern version of these two cute Icons, only pays homage to the appearance and not the drivetrain layout)

[shashanka]

Originally Posted by Sutripta

Taking a leaf from your post, lets say - to each his own (mine are very different from yours), and let it go at that.
Just another observation: Hyperbole, and being taken seriously, normally don't go hand in hand.
Regards
Sutripta

Alright, no harm in that - let us agree to disagree! And while I agree that taking hyperbole seriously would fall under the category of an oxymoron, I think I am probably missing the point.
Cheers,
Shashanka

Originally Posted by 1100D

I have been following your posts on this thread with a lot of Fandom!
The 911 was a powerful car (so was the 356 prior to it), even the Beetle wasn't too underpowered, however, the Rear engine Rear drive layout was actually quite sweet in the Fiat 500 (Nuova) of the late 50's.
Yes, cars like that died, many hold Sir Alec Issigonis as the main culprit, though he himself wasn't too proud of the Mini and that Front Drive Transverse engine layout has been around since the 1930's in DKW's and the exact start of that layout is probably a bit murky now.
I, myself, am looking forward to the Pelican, even if I dont necessarily need it, but just for the sake of connecting to the Cinquecento and the Beetle in a very remote way in modern times (Unfortunately the modern version of these two cute Icons, only pays homage to the appearance and not the drivetrain layout)

1100D, you flatter me - tho' I admit it feels good to find a kindred soul! I agree about the influence of Sir Alec in the gradual rise of the FE/FWD lay-out to its current all-conquering position. And this had always saddened me - never more so than when, even Alfa Romeo went the way of all flesh with their FWD Alfasud in the late sixties/early seventies.

And you are spot-on when you talk about the gorgeous little run-abouts of the sixties with their RE/RWD lay-outs. Boy, am I glad that there is someone in these pages after all, who shares this same nostalgia for the "misty yester-years" as the irreplaceable Paul Anka would say!

[abhishek46]

I have a feeling the updated Nano/pelican may look like this below, the Nano Europa.

Tata Motors never bothered to launch this rather decent looking vehicle. Looks like the pelican will look similar & have similar features (larger wheels, 3 cyl engine etc). I feel this Pelican could actually be the Europa in disguise.

[sushantr5]

Last week on Pune Banglore highway, I was overtaken by nano test mule. It was regular nano body shell wise but front bumper and rear portion was camouflaged. Nothing different compared to look.

But the speed it was doing was un-imaginable. From the stance it felt like it is having some weight in side it. Even though it was doing constant 120 kmph. I tried to chase it to observe but no help. I tried for 10-15 minutes but it was really hard bird to catch.

It was going above 120 kmph, leaving behind everything in the way. Everyone was amused to see how this thing is going so fast. It must be new 3 cylinder petrol engine under test.

[Majumdarda]

Originally Posted by sushantr5

...it was doing constant 120 kmph. I tried to chase it to observe but no help. I tried for 10-15 minutes but it was really hard bird to catch.

It was going above 120 kmph, leaving behind everything in the way. Everyone was amused to see how this thing is going so fast. It must be new 3 cylinder petrol engine under test.

A Nano with 120 on the odo . That probably suggests some sound engine refinement. As you were tailing the "bird", what about the sound? Did you observe any sort of swerving in such high speed, on the Nano?

On a lighter note, not many souls will be happy being overtaken by a Nano, more so if its in such high speeds.