[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by humyum

I don't agree. The biggest problem with Tata right now in this segment is the Indica gene which they JUST not are letting go even after knowing after knowing for decades that it's not cutting it with the personal car buyer.

When I look at a Bolt, being a Maruti customer, I get repelled (NO offence to anyone here, it's just my opinion). There should be something in the BOLT which should make a transformation sale for Tata from a Maruti, for that there needs to be a product which Maruti/Hyundai customers associate with.(since they share more than 50% Of the Market share in hatchbacks).

With the BOLT, I can't associate myself to the car, not it's driving dynamics, not its gearshift, nor its acceleration, nor the way it looks. It has nothing to offer which makes me go 'WOW MAN, this car is AWESOME'.

What is so awesome with Maruti except cheap pricing and that its been there since the stone age? Does any Maruti car excite any senses? The cars start rattling a few hundred kms from purchase, the body work gets dings from bicycles and dents from people leaning over it. There are no safety features except a seat belt and god forbid if one crashes the car, the possibility of walking away unscathed is remote!!
Please don't create a thread with the intention of flaming or degrading a maker or a brand. If you like Maruti by all means stick to it, please do not go on using words like repelled etc. This thread is about Tata trying to create a performance brand, the kind which Maruti will never dream of doing. Lets stick to that discussion please...

[humyum]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

What is so awesome with Maruti except cheap pricing and that its been there since the stone age? Does any Maruti car excite any senses? The cars start rattling a few hundred kms from purchase, the body work gets dings from bicycles and dents from people leaning over it. There are no safety features except a seat belt and god forbid if one crashes the car, the possibility of walking away unscathed is remote!!
Please don't create a thread with the intention of flaming or degrading a maker or a brand. If you like Maruti by all means stick to it, please do not go on using words like repelled etc. This thread is about Tata trying to create a performance brand, the kind which Maruti will never dream of doing. Lets stick to that discussion please...

BABA, read my entire post. I said an Indica clone/lookalike/gene does not excite me and host of other personal car buyers and hence the dismissal sales. On top of that a performance version of the same model just won't work IMO.

If I am asking for a model of a Tata car which is way different than the competition what's wrong in that ? Is that not how competitors increased the market share in the first place ?

I welcomed the idea of a Tata's performance thingy, but it should be in a more acceptable new model.

Where is the degradation ?

BTW, the Maruti car rattling story is as old as Adam and Eve.

[wantarangerover]

Originally Posted by humyum

I don't agree. The biggest problem with Tata right now in this segment is the Indica gene which they JUST not are letting go even after knowing after knowing for decades that it's not cutting it with the personal car buyer.

Well, that is another issue altogether. Re-branding is not a blanket solution of course, they need to get their pricing, A.S.S, and marketing right. The Indica did cut it with the personal buyer initially (I very well remember that it was a desirable car when it was launched). They sat on it for too long, and let its image go south. I suppose it is a well discussed topic here, and not really pertaining to the discussion at hand.

Originally Posted by humyum

When I look at a Bolt, being a Maruti customer, I get repelled (NO offence to anyone here, it's just my opinion).

In the same way, I am sure many get repelled by Maruti as well. It is a re-branded cheap Japanese brand which sells unsafe cars to millions in a country which has no proper roads or road manners. But that is not important here.

Originally Posted by humyum

There should be something in the BOLT which should make a transformation sale for Tata from a Maruti, for that there needs to be a product which Maruti/Hyundai customers associate with.(since they share more than 50% Of the Market share in hatchbacks).

Are you saying that TATA should copy Maruti so that buyers can associate themselves with it? Apart from the fact that it is not at that easy, it is not the way to go. Car makers spend time and money to differentiate themselves, to create a USP. I think that a performance brand is a good move in that regard, albeit a bit premature for TATA as they don't have any credibility there. They should be sponsoring motor-sports events, conducting track days for customers, etc. to gain some traction as a performance manufacturer. It will not be easy for them to convince customers about tata being a performance car maker.

Originally Posted by humyum

With the BOLT, I can't associate myself to the car, not it's driving dynamics, not its gearshift, nor its acceleration, nor the way it looks. It has nothing to offer which makes me go 'WOW MAN, this car is AWESOME'.

So are you implying that a Maruti makes you go "WOW- It is AWESOME"? Apart from the Swift, there is no car in the Maruti stable that remotely resembles excitement. The reasons for Maruti's success is down to price and reliability and also the herd mentality of Indians.

[Dr.Suraj]

Well they are finally trying to get there.

For years I have been writing to them suggesting that they spin off the 'commercial vehicles' into a separate division.
It would greatly help shed the 'taxi image'.

As mentioned on another thread here on TBHP - 'the taxi curse'.
The cars are definitely reliable & VFM. That's why they are being used as taxis. (Both the T & T)
But as rightly mentioned by many of that thread and here - we Indians are very perceptive consumers.
Very tricky market !

So many time GTO extoles so many virtues of a car that is actually a good product but doesn't always meet the expected sales figures. Or doesn't get marketed right.


If I am not mistake - just like the other examples mentioned - Honda Infiniti, Toyota Lexus etc. - this will be a 'different' brand. New name, new identity.

For some reason, best known to Tata, they are willing to spend on the other end of the spectrum than dissociate the commercial segment.

Let's hope it pays off.

Either ways its a win-win for India & Indian consumers.
Looking forward it !

Edit: To the guy who said 'Bolt repels him' - Wow, really there is no pleasing everyone !
Reminded me of the other guy who said - 'I don't understand when people say their car speaks to them or their car has a soul'

Wish I could post that 'face-palm' GIF here.

[GKR9900]

Originally Posted by wantarangerover

Yes, sub-brands can work if done correctly. And tons of car makers have done it, before hyundai - Toyota (Lexus, and Crown for Asian markets); Honda (Acura), Nissan (Infiniti). The idea is simple in that although we know it comes from the same manufacturer, it is supposed to be a different 'division'. A completely different team focused on luxury/performance as the case maybe.

Indeed. If Tata is keen on making any waves in the performance space as is rumored here, a sub-brand is the way to go. Period! Adding more variants will not cut the cake, no matter how good they are. But that isn't enough. They have to create credibility by arranging motorsports events and performing well too. They have to let the world know that they're serious in this endeavor, that they want to redefine performance motoring in this country. It will take a lot of passion and hard work. Like I said, Tata has the assets and means to do it, but will they do it? Only time will tell.

Originally Posted by AAD

I disagree here with your viewpoint. By this logic both Mercedes and Volvo should not be sharing brand name and logo with their truck division.

The way I see it, sub-branding is how the company overcomes the psychological barrier that exists in the mind of the customer. Like in my previous post, I pointed out how Hyundai came up with the Genesis. Now there're objective things that a manufacturer can improve in a car - engine, gearbox, suspension, electronic aids, features, and so on. But the subjective things - how the car makes the customer feel inspite of all the tech in the world is another ballgame.

Also, the concept of sub-branding is relative. Toyota had to create Lexus so that they can have a shot at the Germans. Mercedes, Audi, BMW, Volvo are companies that have an impressive record spanning decades of engineering excellence. They have pedigree and a level of unmatched credibility. So no matter how good a car Toyota creates, it would have been difficult to lure customers away from these titans. So they had to separate a luxury/performance wing just to make that impact in the customer's mind. Because of the aspirational value and credibility associated with big brands, they don't always have to rebrand their products, be it personal cars or commercial vehicles. But when they come up against an even bigger adversary - as was the case when Mercedes decided to have a go at Rolls-Royce which was the epitome of luxury, things change. The Merc badge was simply not enough to lure prospective customers. Thus came Maybach.

Now I'm not predicting our humble Tata is going to create an AMG-beating performance division. All that I'm saying is if the rumors are true, it's better for Tata to create a sub-brand that is more focused on performance and proceed from there, rather than wasting time and money in bringing newer variants and facelifts just for namesake!

[apachelongbow]

its good that at least one manufacturer is trying to promote or produce a performance brand, kudos for that thinking. As for the Japanese they are happy selling the same recycled products with no soul, but as long as sales are there, they are not wrong in doing so. If there is a modicum of encouragement for the performance division in terms of sales, it will encourage other car makers in getting in their performance cars here.

[Car Architect]

Originally Posted by humyum

BTW, the Maruti car rattling story is as old as Adam and Eve.

In my honest opinion the rattling issues still exists in a damaging way, me being the very victim of it. And many of my acquaintances also are affected by this phenomenon.

[Steeroid]

Good idea, but Tata being Tata the market and the game would've moved on by the time they actually bring out the product.

Without the speed to launch, they can talk all they want but won't get anywhere - all the manufacturers here (except Suzuki ) have hot hatches sold elsewhere that they can bring down in limited numbers for the same purpose. Suzuki of course only has Italian engines and the Indian market.

[phamilyman]

Originally Posted by GTO

How come no one whined about this when VW brought in the Polo GTs? Had VW overhauled their terrible dealerships overnight? Improved their shoddy after-sales service? Or magically fixed the DSG's reliability?

Actually good point. Had skipped my mind completely.

For the record, my post was about aam aadmi perspectives only - not enthusiasts. Even for my own money - isnt ever going to VW unless some future job involves a company leased car where a standby car is assured by the lessor!


Unless I turn rich overnight I'll still buy cars as appliances that must be trustworthy first, and exciting later. But that's me. To each their own - for many folks, buying a car is as much a matter of the heart as its of the head, and I respect that decision, whether its for a GT TSI or a 120 bhp bolt!

[im_srini]

Originally Posted by Steeroid

... all the manufacturers here (except Suzuki ) have hot hatches sold elsewhere that they can bring down in limited numbers for the same purpose.

Not true, there's this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkDQvCyDLtM

... which seems to have held up well through the years too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP7of5ZlE8o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYX6nWqrAgk

Originally Posted by Steeroid

Suzuki of course only has Italian engines and the Indian market.

LOL Indeed !

[Diesel_convert]

Usually hot hatches are done as halo models.

Though in this case I think its a brilliant way to develop local talent to tune cars for good dynamics.

I would think a team led by someone from Jaguar and a bunch of Tata engineers can definitely beat most hot hatch competitors on sale right now.

Their cars have moved up in terms of plastic quality going by reports here, maybe its time they took the fun factor to the next level.

[Nilesh5417]

All this brand perception and Tata being a commercial vehicle manufacturer etc is actually what Tata needs to fix. There are many ways of doing this. Launching a performance car is one but what Tata needs to do is also highlight their ownership of JLR and the talk more about plans to share technologies, platforms etc. They might be doing it alright but it doesn't help being so quiet.

When folks on Team Bhp really talk about Tata being a commercial vehicle manufacturer with unreliable products that won't make the cut, its surprising that Tata's ownership of JLR is forgotten. Imagine the perception issue with aam admi?

They should seriously consider something like the Prima Truck racing for the passenger car division. What VW already does - the Vento cup.

I see promise in the new roadmap the Tata's have for the passenger car division but they really need to start talking more about what they are doing. They can't be the reclusive / my-work-speaks-for-myself / i-have-got-heritage kind of a brand any more.

[humyum]

Originally Posted by wantarangerover

Well, that is another issue altogether. Re-branding is not a blanket solution of course, they need to get their pricing, A.S.S, and marketing right. The Indica did cut it with the personal buyer initially (I very well remember that it was a desirable car when it was launched). They sat on it for too long, and let its image go south. I suppose it is a well discussed topic here, and not really pertaining to the discussion at hand.

Originally Posted by wantarangerover

In the same way, I am sure many get repelled by Maruti as well. It is a re-branded cheap Japanese brand which sells unsafe cars to millions in a country which has no proper roads or road manners. But that is not important here.

Originally Posted by wantarangerover

Are you saying that TATA should copy Maruti so that buyers can associate themselves with it? Apart from the fact that it is not at that easy, it is not the way to go. Car makers spend time and money to differentiate themselves, to create a USP. I think that a performance brand is a good move in that regard, albeit a bit premature for TATA as they don't have any credibility there. They should be sponsoring motor-sports events, conducting track days for customers, etc. to gain some traction as a performance manufacturer. It will not be easy for them to convince customers about tata being a performance car maker.

Originally Posted by wantarangerover

So are you implying that a Maruti makes you go "WOW- It is AWESOME"? Apart from the Swift, there is no car in the Maruti stable that remotely resembles excitement. The reasons for Maruti's success is down to price and reliability and also the herd mentality of Indians.

Originally Posted by Car Architect

In my honest opinion the rattling issues still exists in a damaging way, me being the very victim of it. And many of my acquaintances also are affected by this phenomenon.

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

What is so awesome with Maruti except cheap pricing and that its been there since the stone age? Does any Maruti car excite any senses? The cars start rattling a few hundred kms from purchase, the body work gets dings from bicycles and dents from people leaning over it. There are no safety features except a seat belt and god forbid if one crashes the car, the possibility of walking away unscathed is remote!!
Please don't create a thread with the intention of flaming or degrading a maker or a brand. If you like Maruti by all means stick to it, please do not go on using words like repelled etc. This thread is about Tata trying to create a performance brand, the kind which Maruti will never dream of doing. Lets stick to that discussion please...

You lot have distorted my entire meaning of the post into Tata bashing.
You want a Bolt RS KYA ? Or would you chose a Swift RS ? or I20 RS ?

All I am saying is, get a better platform aka a sporty looking car with dynamics which are biased towards handling and launch a high powered version of it.

[arjab]

Check out this link:

http://www.salon-auto.ch/en/premiere...9/?search=tata

The Bolt Sport concept is a sporty take on the new Tata Bolt hatchback. The car features a performance tuned engine, short throw gearbox, track tuned chassis and suspension. The upscale exteriors and interiors display muscular in-car and on-road presence.

Seems the boys from Bombay House are serious. Power output is quoted at 89kW which should translate to 120.9 ~ 121Ps

[charanreddy]

IMO, A performance car is about the brand, reliability and premium-ness associated with service and of-course performance.

Completely agree that the Indica DNA in Tata seems to stick on in every new launch which keeps folks away from buying the brand. Also it has failed to build the kind of premium-ness associated with a Hyundai or Maruti (Yes Maruti! A lot of folks aspire to buy a Wagor-R, but none aspire to buy an indica) even though both sell entry level hatches and sedans. Unless Tata launches an absolute gem of a performance car at dirt cheap rates, it will not create the buzz that will make buyers take notice.

A sub-brand may be the way to go, but the transformation has to be more than in the name. It has to have zero overlap with Tata's current design philosophy.