[vinair]

Originally Posted by GTO

One thing for sure, after the Liva & Etios debacle, we won't be seeing any cheap cut-price cars from the big T here.

I believe it was a lesson Toyota learnt the hard way. A badge alone cannot propel a product, it needs to have an USP, in every aspect.

Toyota for once, should shed its arrogance and start approaching the Indian market in a more mature way. Look at segments where a strong presence can be created. e.g. The 'Rush' and the 'Avanza' makes perfect sense and with the kind of markets that they are already available in, launching it in India should not be a uphill task.

[acidkill]

Also, Why not fully localise the production of the fortuner and corolla? I am sure the sales will go 4x if the price could fall 30%

Besides they have an insanely capable cars in the vios, avanza, rush, avigo etc

I dont know they had to wait for long for to increase their market play here

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by smartcat

South East Asian (ASEAN) countries might be tiny in geographic size but their combined GDP is about 20 or 30% more than India's. GDP per capita is almost 3 times more than India's. Population is approximately half that of India's. GDP growth too is pretty decent (5 to 6% per year, over the last 10 years)

So why does Toyota or Honda find ASEAN lucrative? It's all in the numbers.
http://www.asiamattersforamerica.org...a/gdppercapita

I disagree. Statistics are like a bikini, one can cover and show what one wants!! Let me explain
Per captia income: Naturally India's income will be much lower, starting with a lower base and saddled with a huge dead weight of poor and have nots
However considering the car buying population and the statistic changes dramatically, we have a pool of over 500-600 million (50-60 crores) of people who can afford a car, this is proven when you compare annual vehicle sales between say Thailand and India.
Make no mistake, just like any other car company Toyota too desperately wants a share of the pie, in fact all the big companies would love to gobble Maruti Suzuki as a subsidiary.
Its not easy doing business in India, to succeed companies have to think small but not cheap, consider how global giants Pepsi and Cocoa Cola re bottled and re packaged in India to smaller 200/250/300 ml bottles and PET bottles rather than US giant 5 gallon jugs or tin cans? Like wise global giants Unilever succeeded in India by downsizing their products into one rupee sachets etc, still ensuring terrific sales. Similarly only Maruti and Hyundai (among foreign players), got their act right by focusing on value for money hatchbacks then rising to higher price offerings piggybacking on strong sales, after sales and word of mouth about value and reliability.

Toyota tried and fell flat on their face with the Etios, the Liva and their atrocious cross versions. Instead they should have copied Hyundai who produced the small I10, I20 too, but in place of cheap cuts apparent everywhere, they loaded their hatches with features, good looks and excellent interiors.

[slamnos]

Originally Posted by vinair

Just look at models (particularly the MPVs) showcased at the Bangkok Motor Show from Toyota, its just unbelievable how it considers Bangkok more important than a market as big as India!!

Our MPV market is about 17-18% and the growth is only for compact MPVs off late, and Toyota do not have compact MPVs at competitive price points.

For considering new products for India, OEMs need to have Hatchbacks which attributes to 50% of Indian TIV. Also cross overs are growing rapidly.

If an OEM doesnt have these products (on-time) and that too at a competitive price, then there is no point even considering bringing other products.

Also manufacturing new products means huge setup in new assembly/manufacturing lines which has to be backed by hefty volumes to break-even the setup cost. And for a company like Toyota which doesnt have expertise in small cars it makes it all-the-more difficult to venture into these segments.

[CarNerd]

Toyota started by launching the Qualis - a low grade MUV with pathetic safety which somehow did well initially. Then it gave the Camry, Corolla, Landcruiser, Prado which are popular models world over which didn't do well in here. Next was the Innova which till now is a segment leader. So Toyota cashed in on the MUV segment which didn't have any serious competition. Next it thought of entering the small car segment which is what the Indian auto industry is all about by coming up with two dumb models: Etios & Liva which were inferior to segment leaders. Toyota thinks of itself as the only company which knows everything about quality & hence makes cars that it thinks Indians should buy rather than making cars which Indians want: Value For Money.

[Contrapunto]

I think an oft-ignored aspect is their partner in India- Kirloskars. Toyota may have the desire to invest more and move aggressively. However Kirloskars may not have the pockets, or the willingness, or the ambition to match pace to keep up the %age of its equity stake. Usually in these joint ventures the partner has the right of first refusal. I would speculate that the dynamics of this partnership also plays a part. Its pure speculation from my side, I would love to hear from any current/ ex Toyota/ Kirloskar India "personas" here in this forum.

[SmartCat]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

However considering the car buying population and the statistic changes dramatically, we have a pool of over 500-600 million (50-60 crores) of people who can afford a car, this is proven when you compare annual vehicle sales between say Thailand and India.

Don't look at Thailand - look at South East Asia as a single entity. Annual vehicle sales of ASEAN (3.2 million) is approximately 60% more than India's (2 million).

[ratangera]

clearly we have different priorities and are a finicky lot, so corolla, fortuner and innova are segment leader with latter two selling rather spectacularly for their price . Whereas etios and liva struggling, i wish to make liva part of my garage soon and have admired it for 300000+ km it has done as taxis (yes i do) and second somehow being safer in terms of frame quality. Blaming etios for bad quality is one thing but degeneration in hondas quality is equally appalling

[ajmat]

More information below which might answer things for you
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...hlight=Renault

We want small cars. Maruti make 50 shades of small but they managed to upsell the whole of India to the Swift. No one else except Hyundai have been as successful

[apachelongbow]

Originally Posted by ratangera

clearly we have different priorities and are a finicky lot, so corolla, fortuner and innova are segment leader with latter two selling rather spectacularly for their price . Whereas etios and liva struggling, i wish to make liva part of my garage soon and have admired it for 300000+ km it has done as taxis (yes i do) and second somehow being safer in terms of frame quality. Blaming etios for bad quality is one thing but degeneration in hondas quality is equally appalling

Not bad quality per se. It's appalling interior and exterior trim. It is cheap quality rather cheap looking and feeling interiors, lack of sound insulation and no feel of richness, in fact the Etios and Liva look built to a cost like a Nano. The Honda City may be cheaply built but the overall look and feel is miles ahead compared to Toyota, which is reflected in the sales as well.

[kraft.wagen]

Plus most of the taxis in Thailand are Corolla which adds to the numbers.

[ratangera]

Originally Posted by apachelongbow

Not bad quality per se. It's appalling interior and exterior trim. It is cheap quality rather cheap looking and feeling interiors, lack of sound insulation and no feel of richness, in fact the Etios and Liva look built to a cost like a Nano. The Honda City may be cheaply built but the overall look and feel is miles ahead compared to Toyota, which is reflected in the sales as well.

yes sales number is an answer to any question, my problem with hondas is with respect to their own older models in india. A thread to say the same-
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/indian...e-anymore.html


PS: i seriously wish they charge some more and make interiors a bit more presentable

[turbospooler]

IMHO, Toyota should have been more competitive in any market, be it ASEAN or India for that matter.
Here is why:
1) They introduced LEAN: The destroyed Ford & GM by their lean methods and usurped volumes due to their reliability and quality at VFM prices.
2) They have platforms for all shapes and sizes of vehicles eg: AYGO, Yaris etc to Innova, Fortuner and everything between
3) They also had engines for all fuels: D-4D for Yaris which can be compared with a Swift

Here is why they didn't dominate:
1) Top down approach in India (didn't work here but worked very well in ASEAn due to pick-up love)
2) Excessive focus on high margin products in India (and margins and volumes don't go hand in hand, always)
3) Getting tangled in recalls (USA) due to (possible?) loss of supplier quality, floods in Japan and the fact that India is a JV and not much focused on due to so called issues in India's current market state and difficulty in doing business.
However, it is Toyota which did not launch volume products and did not increase its network to a mass producer level. I believe Toyota is covering up their failure of becoming a mass player by playing the premium tag.
I believe if Hyundai could do it in all the markets they were present, so could Toyota. Let's see what the future beholds for Toyota.

[D4D]

My guess is Toyota India just can't seem to get land and build factories in India. Why else aren't they producing many high volume cars?

Three cars which can really take their sales forward:

1. Vios (city/ciaz/verna/vento rival)
2. Yaris (i20/Polo/Jazz rival)
3. Avanza (Ertiga/Mobilio rival)

About 14-16k units a month for these(all three combined), have to be produced locally to compete.

Add about 7500 from the present number sold, we're looking at producing 21-22k cars a month.

How can you expect toyota to almost triple their production over a couple of years?
India doesn't have cheap labour for that, land is a premium. In short, Toyota are going to favour Thailand for manufacturing.

[autobahnjpr]

Originally Posted by vinair

Why does Toyota find the South East Asian countries more lucrative than India?

Just look at models (particularly the MPVs) showcased at the Bangkok Motor Show from Toyota, its just unbelievable how it considers Bangkok more important than a market as big as India!!

Why do you think a company like Toyota does not find India the best place for a product onslaught and keeps handing over the baton to other players??

SE more lucrative than India? Are you sure? Judging by the market share of Innova and Fortuner and hefty price tag I am quite sure India is very lucrative for Toyota.

Do you mean to say why SE is more important in terms of product launches for Toyota than India. Why the products are launched there earlier? If that is the case then it is not restricted to Toyota. Even Honda launches products in SE before launching in India.