[rsm97]

Originally Posted by 400notout

Had been to the Vashi showroom on Sunday. Guess what? No car on display!!!


One funny thing. "Is the booking amount refundable?" my friend asked. To our surprise he said "No". Then he added that, for people booking blindly, if they test drive and don't like the car and have booked before then we can get a refund. But if process is not complete for other reasons, Booking amount wont be refunded.

All in all, disappointed we didn't get to see the car. Will visit after a couple of weeks till the car and accessory price list arrives. There's no point of booking one without test driving one.


RXT (O) is 4.5l on-road Navi mumbai. What would be the cost to upgrade those tyres? and how will the accessories be priced?? I guess it will take upto 5 lacs to deck her up impeccably thats a price pretty close to the Celerio vxi (carwale says)

Dealer arrogance is not new when a freshly launched vehicle generates lot of buzz. Have experienced this with more established players, but perhaps they can live with some negativity generated. Wondering how a Renault dealer can afford it when a single Kwid has not been delivered.

Coming to competition, reaction from Maruti and Hyundai was expected. It is likely to continue till the dust settles. I, however, have a feeling that if Renault can actually put their act together and ensure that dealers put a nice face to the public, Kwid is going to disrupt competition during early months. All the talks about low weight, crash test, ABS, etc. etc., are not going to deter buyers in this category. Competition is no better and people like what Kwid has to offer.

Since it still is unlikely to be close to the leader, would need to play the game with the rules established. Year end perhaps will be too early, but expecting discounts and freebies getting offered in Feb-March.

[BaluJ]

Any ideas when we can expect the AMT ? I don't see a whole lot of information related to this on internet/TBHP.

[SandyX]

Just got a call from the SA. A demo car is now available at TVS Renault, Calicut, KL. It won't be going away & all other showrooms should be getting theirs anytime now. Again, no clues on delivery date.

'My hope is to be able to produce 1 million cars per year on the CMF-A platform' -Gérard Detourbet

http://www.autocarpro.in/interview/h...-platform-9366

You also say that the Kwid showcases lot of lightweighting efforts. Could you elaborate on that?

In a car you have a lot of kilos which are not useful. Take an example, the brake disc. You could have a brake disc of different types. The brake needs a surface of contact between the pad and the disc. If you do a disc with a thickness of 2cm, you don't increase the capacity of braking. You have to say upto what I could go down, maybe 18, 17 or 16mm. The only thing you have to take care is to ensure that there is not deformation due to the heat generated while braking. So, the question is up to what level I can go down. If you do the normal way, then you do 20mm. If you optimise, you could go down up to 16mm. It's just an idea. And everything has to be done like that...

[Lalvaz]

Originally Posted by SandyX

'My hope is to be able to produce 1 million cars per year on the CMF-A platform' -Gérard Detourbet

http://www.autocarpro.in/interview/h...-platform-9366
You also say that the Kwid showcases lot of lightweighting efforts. Could you elaborate on that?

In a car you have a lot of kilos which are not useful. Take an example, the brake disc. You could have a brake disc of different types. The brake needs a surface of contact between the pad and the disc. If you do a disc with a thickness of 2cm, you don't increase the capacity of braking. You have to say upto what I could go down, maybe 18, 17 or 16mm. The only thing you have to take care is to ensure that there is not deformation due to the heat generated while braking. So, the question is up to what level I can go down. If you do the normal way, then you do 20mm. If you optimise, you could go down up to 16mm. It's just an idea. And everything has to be done like that...

I would like to know why they can't use 16mm brake pads on their cars in the U.S. or EU. I'm sure the same optimisation will improve margins and fuel efficiency even in those markets. While I'm all in favour of innovation and optimisation, it should never be at the expense of safety. We've seen the swifts coming with weaker brakes in lower spec variants. Why do these companies optimise only to compromise on basic safety features in India???

[castiel]

Poor choice of example. He could have chosen any other non critical part to prove the benefits of "optimization". When asked about a newly launched low cost car I am not sure about the wisdom of telling the media that they reduced cost by using smaller brakes regardless it is okay to do or not. It is all about perception

[Pam81]

Originally Posted by Lalvaz

I would like to know why they can't use 16mm brake pads on their cars in the U.S. or EU. I'm sure the same optimisation will improve margins and fuel efficiency even in those markets. While I'm all in favour of innovation and optimisation, it should never be at the expense of safety. We've seen the swifts coming with weaker brakes in lower spec variants. Why do these companies optimise only to compromise on basic safety features in India???

Excellent question!!

Quick answer: India lacks stringent norms for Automobiles from regulator standpoint (Govt. or Govt. Agencies). Crash safety in India is not mandatory. Recent news articles says Govt is planning to make them mandatory from 2017.
http://articles.economictimes.indiat...new-cars-norms

But still why?

In my opinion & understanding, it is not OEMs that are willingly compromising on safety features. It's our Indian customer's mindset & preferences that are driving these decisions. How many of customers are inclined to question about safety features when they visit showrooms & doing TD. From a pure showroom understanding, 7 out of 10 customers do not even think ABS is necessary. I have seen sales guys blabbering that ABS is useful only when rains, that too at high speed braking. There are many new customers who don't even bother about air-bag, they probably do not even know why & what exactly it does. We can't blame them. Lots of factors for such low awareness. For OEMs, whose main aim to make profits (any business for that matter), it's a win-win. The market is price-sensitive, really looks after Fuel Economy but does not bother about safety & emission norms. So there goes, when they observe that customer does not want to understand the cost of having a safety function, there's no point in pushing the same. They are risking to loose business because the cost increase for having ABS & Air-bags, structurally crash-worthy body really not getting any appreciation from majority of Indian customers.

It's a blessing in disguise for many OEMs who are trying to go after big success that Maruti is enjoying. Maruti's role in successfully creating such a market culture can't be excluded. Many customers think as long as it is Maruti, it is clean, cheap & good. Not necessarily true, you can see their STD version of Alto does not have any safety features and fares really bad in crash tests. Who cares! Rural accidents never gets reported anyway. Now, other OEMs (Renault, Hyundai, Honda etc) are learning from Maruti and making necessary omissions in their trims to meet cost & market demands.

It is well proven in Automotive Industry, Strict Govt. regulations & enforcement of safety norms really driven the technology adoption. Bottom line is you have to pay for responsible driving of an automobile. It is frustrating to see large proportion of us, Indian customers, do not bother about Safety & Emissions but just want to enjoy the freedom of mobility that the automobile gives. In any new product development, the first step is "Voice of Customer" and of course bench-marking of successful product in the market. It's clear for entry level cars & even next level hatches, large proportions of Indian Customers prefer plain function over safety, looks & feel good gizmo features over ABS/ Air-bags.

[hybridpetrol]

Originally Posted by castiel

Poor choice of example. He could have chosen any other non critical part to prove the benefits of "optimization". When asked about a newly launched low cost car I am not sure about the wisdom of telling the media that they reduced cost by using smaller brakes regardless it is okay to do or not. It is all about perception

At least he is coming out with the examples of how they reduced the weight of the car. Kwid is almost one foot lengthier than Alto, and is wider as well, but still more than 50 kilos lighter. As far as we know, Alto itself has a wafer thin body, and hence more than 50 kilos weight reduction from that raises questions.
You can only reduce so much weight when it comes to the non critical parts, such as seats, parcel trays, music players, etc, which has been already done to severe extent in cars such as Nano and Alto. Apart from that they (Alto, Nano etc) have also made the body parts such as doors, pillars, roofs, glasses so thin that, making any more thin will not be possible here.
Engine area consists of several parts, all of them critical, and all of them add a good deal of weight. Here is where Renault would have found some scope for optimization. We would never know what risk they are putting us into, unless they tell us something.
All we know is, the price tag is attractive, and it looks SUVish with good GC, and good interior space and boot space, with niceties such as GPS navigation. Since our Government do not insist the manufacturers on providing safety features, manufacturers are free to experiment with their optimization techniques on us, who love mileage, price tag and an attractive looking car with some convenience features.

[Cuatro]

Now that the excitement over the super value for money(VFM) pricing by Renault is over, there's a rampant increase in the number of questions about "Safety" in the Kwid. There seems to be no reports of crash test rating in Europe or Asia where it is reportedly going to be on sale. More doubts come up in the mind especially due to the following developments:

- Announcement of the very low weight of the car : Now, we all know that when global cars come to India there's a significant reduction of a number of kilos in the overall weight, apparently due to reduction of safety equipment and in many cases thickness of the sheet metal.

- Even the CEO, during the launch event has dubiously mentioned that Kwid is positioned to take care of Indian requirements of safety(we all know what levels of safety are required or "not-required" by Indian Government for passenger cars on Indian roads). People by now expect confident answers from the CEO like ; it is being tested at Euro NCAP, ANCAP, JNCAP (which ever is more pertinent) etc and that it is positioned for high level of safety across the world as it's a global car that is being launched


The more heavier Nano actually wobbles due to cross winds even at speeds of 80-90 kmph especially on the highways. I wonder what will be the case of Kwid as even this is built on a Tallboy concept with high ground clearance. It might become extremely unsafe especially when the car is capable of higher speeds than the Nano. I am guessing the top speed of Kwid might at-least be 120 kmph?

[SandyX]

Originally Posted by Cuatro

The more heavier Nano actually wobbles due to cross winds even at speeds of 80-90 kmph especially on the highways. I wonder what will be the case of Kwid as even this is built on a Tallboy concept with high ground clearance.

Comparing the road hugging & handling characteristics of Renault with a Tata? Put it this way, a Duster would still hold its fort for the same crosswind at which a deadweight safari wobbles. Same for mahindra & the Americans. None complained about handling of Kwid, infact they likened it to Duster in that area. Atleast in suspension tech, they know what they are doing. One must know automobiles don't follow the gravity dam concept to stay in place. Neither do they employ the super thick sheet metal policy anymore. If you need 'thunk' in A-seg at this age, only option is to make the car by yourself.

Renault are masters at lightweight construction, something one can notice from all their cars on offer. They only include the amount of material actually required to stay true to their simulations & tests. Why carry the excess when it's not adding value to the product? Optimize & give excess where it's due. This they clearly mentioned they gave to the crash structure, publicly.

Those asking for crash rating would get it when the govt makes it mandatory, or if NCAP sneaks out a kwid & test it by themselves. If the decades old home grown companies won't do it for their mass market products, why is only Renault obliged to do it from the crib? That said, a non-airbag Kwid would most probably give a '0' rating or '1' tops, if the chief is to be believed about crash structure. Expect a '0' for all its competitors in the same base equipment level. The grand i10 episode is still fresh to us eventhough it's segments above.

The design objective is very clear- a competitor to alto. Something that does whatever alto does while still making a mark for itself, in Renault's language. And they did it with handling & perks in the form of NAV. As of now, everything else is EXACTLY the same coz it's up against alto, not wagonr, swift, s-cross or ciaz. Be it safety or its lack thereof.

[Captain Haddock]

A great effort by Renault.

Striking good things about the Kwid.

Tall stance
Good space inside.
Good bhp\ton ratio.

Some hurdles before Renault.

Most buyers in this segment trust Maruti,Tata or hyundai only.

Dimensions larger than nano and alto,may miss out on turning radius and ease of driving in rush hour traffic

Maruti,Tata and hyundai have good service coverage while Renault falls far behind.

It weighs lower than a nano but is much larger so the quality of metal is a question mark.

If the Kwid picks up sales it will be a nano,eon killer. I think alto is too well positioned in the market and for some people Maruti Suzuki tag means a lot.

[Motard_Blr]

Originally Posted by SandyX

Just got a call from the SA. A demo car is now available at TVS Renault, Calicut, KL. It won't be going away & all other showrooms should be getting theirs anytime now. Again, no clues on delivery date.

'My hope is to be able to produce 1 million cars per year on the CMF-A platform' -Gérard Detourbet

http://www.autocarpro.in/interview/h...-platform-9366

Originally Posted by Lalvaz

I would like to know why they can't use 16mm brake pads on their cars in the U.S. or EU.
...

Originally Posted by castiel

Poor choice of example. He could have chosen any other non critical part to prove the benefits of "optimization". When asked about a newly launched low cost car I am not sure about the wisdom of telling the media that they reduced cost by using smaller brakes regardless it is okay to do or not. It is all about perception

Originally Posted by Pam81

Excellent question!!

Quick answer: India lacks stringent norms for Automobiles from regulator standpoint (Govt. or Govt. Agencies). Crash safety in India is not mandatory. Recent news articles says Govt is planning to make them mandatory from 2017.
http://articles.economictimes.indiat...new-cars-norms

...

Originally Posted by hybridpetrol

At least he is coming out with the examples of how they reduced the weight of the car. Kwid is almost one foot lengthier than Alto, and is wider as well, but still more than 50 kilos lighter. As far as we know, Alto itself has a wafer thin body, and hence more than 50 kilos weight reduction from that raises questions.
...

Gérard Detourbet explains what reducing the brake disc thickness is limited by (highlighted in the original quote). Cars in the US or EU are generally much heavier and generally drive faster (on highways) than the Kwid. So they have more kinetic energy that needs to be dissipated into heat. If a brake disc is not thick enough to withstand heat-induced stress generated during hard braking, it can deform. This is how you end up with warped brake discs.

The brake disc is an engineered part, meaning that the its design has followed an approved process and undergone design approval testing. So reducing the thickness from 20 mm to 16 mm need not be a safety compromise.

Design optimisation means designing a part to fulfill the design requirements including a factor of safety, but not excessively so. For example, if a force is expected to be about 100 kg maximum and a factor of safety of 2, then the part will be designed to withstand a force of 100 x 2 = 200 kg. If a part is designed to withstand 300 kg instead, it will needlessly cost more and weigh more.

[mukul32]

Spotted a report by IndianAutosBlog, saying that Renault has ruled out a diesel option for the Kwid, the reason being insufficient scope for the car against the investment costs. Mr. Gerard Detourbet, global VP of alliance A-segment development said that the segment in which the Kwid had to compete didn't have sufficient demand for the future to develop a new engine for the car. Though this report is somewhat old now (dated May 2015), at the unveil of the car in Chennai, the plan to ditch a diesel option might still hold true.
Here is an extract from the same:

We will not have diesel engine for the Kwid. The first reason is cost, because every time you want to take one step forward in the engine’s evolution, you will have to incur a lot of cost. For this kind of car, the engine is half of its cost (development cost). The second reason is that the market share of diesel is going down in India and will go down. The only places where we need a diesel engine now is France and India. The Kwid is a worldwide car, and if you want to sell it in America, Russia and Asia, we don’t want (have) to develop a diesel engine.

Thus, people who were waiting for a diesel option for this car would have to get the petrol, or look elsewhere (read GM).

However, he did state that different and more powerful derivatives of the existing 800cc petrol motor could be possible.

This engine (800 cc) is from a new family. We can do a lot of things with this engine platform. We can increase the displacement, we can add technology and features, and the launch is the first step of this engine. We will have an evolution of this engine.

In India, the Kwid would have to compete with 1000cc rivals like the Alto K10 and Eon, and a 1.0 L version with more than 60 BHP would do the Kwid real good. The car is good enough to warrant a slightly higher price tag anyway, and a punchier engine in such a lightweight car would mean some real enjoyable driving on highways.

[aniketi]

Many people asking about safety of this car. I guess at this price it will not be a safe car or is as safe as Alto or Nano, or less. So if someone wants safe car has to spend more money, as simple as that. No option or alternative here. Just adding one or two airbags also don't make any car more safer. This is a car for city use where speeds are low and chances of major accident is low compared to highways.

If someone wants a safe car in 4 lacs, better buy some safe car in used car market. That's the only option we have. I may sound little rude here but its a fact.

[TheARUN]

Originally Posted by aniketi

Many people asking about safety of this car. I guess at this price it will not be a safe car or is as safe as Alto or Nano, or less. So if someone wants safe car has to spend more money, as simple as that. No option or alternative here. Just adding one or two airbags also don't make any car more safer. This is a car for city use where speeds are low and chances of major accident is low compared to highways.

If someone wants a safe car in 4 lacs, better buy some safe car in used car market. That's the only option we have. I may sound little rude here but its a fact.

Well said

Coming on the heels of the Go, we have to wait till some agency buys a car, ships it to Europe and gets it crash tested

[sasi@8689]

I had checked alto 800 ex-showroom prices for delhi. It is in the range of 2.89 - 3.47 lacs as against the kwid prices of 2.57 - 3.53 lacs. I understand that kwid has better exterior design, some additional features like digital dash, AVN system etc but for the target audience consisting of major number of first time car buyers, would it be wrong to say that the brand value and trust in 'MS' coupled with the wide spread belief of 'best in the class' ownership cost and experience (for the segment) would more or less negate the positives of kwid over alto? I am not saying that nobody would pick kwid over alto, am saying would it be the preferred choice of major number of buyers to make a dent in the numbers of alto.

Extending the same thought, alto k10 is in the price range of 3.20 - 3.76 lacs, so if one is looking at the top end models of kwid, an increase in the budget of 25 to 30k would give him an alto k10 with a bigger 1 litre engine. I understand that this segment is highly price sensitive where even a difference of 20k matters, but in today's EMI world, it hardly makes a difference in monthly outgo and all this comparo would become much more interesting when we consider the discounts and other offers being played on alto currently.

Am i right or did i miss some real big differentiator in favour of kwid over alto while thinking so?