[rockyjee]

Originally Posted by StarScream

True but isn't that the precise situation where you'd want an automatic?

right..

On the matter of FE, any insight on the basis of why VW are reporting improved mileage, even when mechanically or in engine specs there are no differences?

[StarScream]

Originally Posted by rockyjee

right..

On the matter of FE, any insight on the basis of why VW are reporting improved mileage, even when mechanically or in engine specs there are no differences?

I don't have a specific answer but a real-world one: My previous car, a gen-2, manual Honda City with a fuel sipping i-DSI engine, gave me 13 kmpl in city traffic with A/C. My Vento TSI DSG returns 13.5 kmpl in the same conditions.

[Turbo car]

Originally Posted by noopster

I suggest you do your research before posting incorrect stuff on the forum. Volkswagen Group was the first company to launch the DSG (not DGS) box..

BMW and Mercedes double clutch transmissions came much later, developed by Getrag and based on the same BorgWarner technology. Other manufacturers like Ford, Kia and Fiat too have developed their own versions of the double-clutch transmission.

In fact a number of luxury cars in India do not even use double-clutch boxes even now. VW has taken its fair share of flak for the infamous mechatronics failures of primarily its dry clutch DQ200 boxes but you can't fault them for bringing this technology into the sub-10L segment, which is commendable. I suggest you test drive a DSG Polo GT or Vento yourself before passing judgement.

DGS was a typo.

The test drive was great for Vento 1.5 DSG but what i am questioning is the lack of accountability from the part of VW when it comes to DSG failure.
When you scale down a technology, there will be compromises and that compromises often result in early product failure in its life cycle.

VW in India does not give that kind of customer support nor has it generated such a customer oriented brand appeal, and its shabby dealing of customers even now does not reinforce our faith in the brand. When all things go well, VW cars are the best drive's around, but god forbidden something goes wrong, then the lack of customer support from the dealer network makes it a living hell for the car owner. This is from my personal experience of owning 2004 Skoda Octavia Ambiente 1.9 TDi and the experience of friends who own vento aren't that inspiring either.

so buying an MT car from VW stable gives a more "secure" feeling to the customer that buying one with AT and that is because of the lack of proper customer oriented approach from the part of the VW group.

[ObsessedByFIAT]

Why can't Volkswagen do something about that usually high floor hump in the second row? That was the only deal breaker for me while purchasing the car.

[Brute_force]

Okay. Having gotten my new car (which of course is Vento TDI -MT) on 01-May-2015, I am now going to blast the sales representative as to why he didn't tell me that there was going to be a face-lift soon (or maybe, I should have done my research a bit more. Phew )

It is not a big deal for me personally, so to speak, about the rest of all the upgrades than the auto-retracting mirror. Like one of the folks here had mentioned, I would so wish the dealer would actually shake his head and give me a nod on changing them (if at all we could, technically)

As far as the TDI MT is concerned, I feel it has really been a nice upgrade for me (from I20), but I have this feeling pricking me somewhere in my head that my I20, was a tad bit quicker. I haven't driven my car in the highways yet, so I am not sure of the top speed. But I felt I hit a max of about 80 kmph in the 3rd gear in my I20, whereas its about 65 to 70 in Vento. Maybe, its just how I feel. Could anyone tell if this is just me or you feel this is how the Vento is in itself?

MOD: I am not sure if this question I posed here belongs here, please do move the post if you feel it is not supposed to be here. Cheers.

[bosporus]

Originally Posted by Bhodrolok

which brings me to the question for current owners... TDI or TSI? i have always driven petrol cars and I do realize the modern diesels are just as good as petrol ones. However from a daily usage and driving point of view can someone point out the pros and cons other than cost?

My daily driver is a 1.6 TDI, my girlfriend has a TSI. I've driven both the cars extensively, so here's my personal perspective on both:
- The TSI is dead silent. The TDI (even the 1.5 TDI, DSG) is not, and can't be. You notice this more than you will during test drives. So, whenever I drive any other car, that refinement of the TSI is something I miss. In fact, I'll hazard that the TSI approaches NVH levels of cars that are 2-3 times more expensive - my parents are buying one of the big 3, so can vouch for this basis recent test drives.

- The growl of the TSI during enthusiastic driving is to die for. Having said that, IMHO, even the 1.6TDI has a nice sound during enthusiastic driving, just that no diesel can compare with the sound of a high-revving petrol.

- The TSI feels peppier in the city, but at very high speed driving, the TDI feels more powerful. We're talking 120-130+. Let me clarify that the TSI is NOT underpowered at those speeds, just that the TDI seems to have a bit more in it at those speeds. You'll barely feel this, and practically, this is an issue for you only if you're a high speed fiend AND are on the highway all the time.

- The TSI has perceptibly better handling & balance - I'd guess it's a mix of the lighter engine upfront, and overall, lighter kerb weight. It is a more flickable & fun car, if you like to throw your car around.

- Because of the faster gear shifts (and the wide torque band), it has an urgency to it that the TDI doesn't. While the TDI DSG also has the same fast gear changes, somehow it lacks that same urgency that the TSI has.

- That torque of the TDI is very addictive. While you don't get the same shove in the TSI, it has a different kind of an urgency, which compensates, and doesn't let you feel that you're missing out on anything, compared to the TDI. Since the option for you would be a TDI DSG, I think this positive is not relevant for you - the DSG seems to such the torque kick out of the diesels; have felt this not only on the Vento TDI DSG but also on the Jetta.


A few other things to consider:
- If you're motivated enough, you can get a paddle-shift steering wheel fitted in the TSI for anywhere between 20-60k - the amount depends on whether you import it yourself, or buy it off the shelf here. Your warranty will NOT be voided, as per the Service Manager at my VW workshop.

- The DSG is a learning system, so your real life experience will be much better than your test drive experience. Take a simple example: by default, the DSG gearboxes are slightly reluctant to drop gears, so when I drive, I manually drop one or two gears on the DSG when I have to slow the car down for turns or traffic, so that I'm in the power zone when I accelerate again. One time, I had the TSI with me an entire day, and by evening, the gearbox had started doing the same thing on its own, dropping one or two gears when I slowed down. It's uncannily brilliant.

- Everyone raves & rants about the DSG gearbox like it's god's accepted truth, so let me say this: you'll actually find that its been years since someone had a real issue. I was speaking to my service manager, who has become a friend over the years, and he said he hasn't seen one complaint in the 2 years he's been here. My friendly workshop test driver said no complaint in 4 years. Plus, anecdotally, in the 4 years I've had the Vento, they have made huge upgrades to the suspension, really improving the handling & performance. If that is the case with something as basic as the suspension, do you think they would have done nothing on an issue that has almost derailed the VW image globally. And, from personal experience (friend's Superb) when you do have an issue, even outside of warranty, they take care of it.


Personal Verdict
When I have to make such a decision, which is as much heart as it is head, I use a simple matrix: if everything else, including price & running costs were the same, which car would I buy. Today, I think, I would buy the TSI, because it's a purer driver's car.

[rockyjee]

Originally Posted by bosporus

- That torque of the TDI is very addictive. While you don't get the same shove in the TSI, it has a different kind of an urgency, which compensates, and doesn't let you feel that you're missing out on anything, compared to the TDI. Since the option for you would be a TDI DSG, I think this positive is not relevant for you - the DSG seems to such the torque kick out of the diesels; have felt this not only on the Vento TDI DSG but also on the Jetta.

Can you elaborate more? I am curious, since my local VW dealer doesn't have a TSI or TDI DSG to test drive, I did take one on the Jetta TDI DSG and also the Vento TDI MT but there isn't anything to compare it against.

Jetta TDI DSG has more power and torque and the Vento MT TDI has similar respectable ones, and I have been assuming that the Vento TDI or TSI DSG combo would be an icing on the already sumptuous cake, not otherwise! Help

[rosaf]

My query is regarding cruise control- if one sets cruise control at 90 kmph on a highway which is not flat but has some inclines followed by declines but not much traffic where you really have to slow down a lot and then pick up the speed, in such a case where there is an incline does the cruise control cut off or does it makes the engine increase its rpm to keep up the desired speed?

Hope my question is understood.

Thanks.

[graaja]

Originally Posted by rosaf

My query is regarding cruise control- if one sets cruise control at 90 kmph on a highway which is not flat but has some inclines followed by declines but not much traffic where you really have to slow down a lot and then pick up the speed, in such a case where there is an incline does the cruise control cut off or does it makes the engine increase its rpm to keep up the desired speed?

Hope my question is understood.

Thanks.

Not sure if your question is for manual or DSG. On an incline, the ECU automatically increases the throttle to keep the RPM - and hence the speed - constant. If the slope is too high that increase in throttle input is not enough to maintain RPM, the DSG will have the flexibility to downshift and maintain speed. Not sure what happens in a manual transmission in this scenario.

[bosporus]

Originally Posted by rockyjee

Can you elaborate more? I am curious, since my local VW dealer doesn't have a TSI or TDI DSG to test drive, I did take one on the Jetta TDI DSG and also the Vento TDI MT but there isn't anything to compare it against.

Jetta TDI DSG has more power and torque and the Vento MT TDI has similar respectable ones, and I have been assuming that the Vento TDI or TSI DSG combo would be an icing on the already sumptuous cake, not otherwise! Help

To begin with, my apologies for the misspelling - I meant to say, the DSG sucks the kick out of the TDI cars.

Having clarified that, let me elaborate on my point: the TDI and TSI engine have different characteristics, which lead to a different kind of joy you derive from each engine, and a different way in which a DSG or manual interact with it and therefore, a different fun factor with each engine / gearbox combination.

TDI
The TDI is a torque monster, and while it is mostly linear in its power delivery, the torque spread is contained in a small band.

Which means, that the way to enjoy a TDI is to enjoy that torque, within that narrow band. Now, an automatic will try & deliver power in a linear & efficient way, which means that 'hooliganism' (for want of a better word) starts to go missing from the power delivery. Mind you, it is a more efficient power delivery, but that fun factor starts to go missing.

Bear with me a bit, to understand what I mean: by a DSG offering efficient power delivery, I don't just mean the mileage, but I mean that the engine responds to expectations of pace, basis your accelerator inputs, and then delivers just that. So, it will upshift at the most precise point, depending on your expected pace: when I want to go fast, it will rev out of the torque band to the maximum HP delivery point, or it will keep me at low revs, at the low end of the torque zone and will upshift quickly for maximum mileage, when my pace is not that fast.

That is the most efficient use of power, BUT, the fun in the engine comes from inefficiency.

For fun, in a manual, I will shift when I'm about to get out of the torque band, so I constantly feel the torque. Or, I will stay in a gear longer, for a bit of torque, even when I'm going slower. I will end up going slower in the first case, or will consume more fuel in the second, but when I want to have fun, this is the way to do it. We're talking minor differences here, but it finally translate into a difference between a fun power delivery, and a less fun one.

And DSG, because it is efficient, makes for a less fun car when mated with a TDI.


TSI
The world changes with the TSI engines. While peak torque delivered is lower, the TSI has a much wider torque band, and being a petrol, peak HP is delivered higher up in the revs. Which means, I'm pretty much riding the torque band throughout the rev range, plus, when I rev. higher, unlike a diesel, I'm rewarded with the high of peak HP.

Which means, efficient power delivery of the DSG matches exactly with the way of driving that will deliver fun to the driver. Even when you're driving slow, you're always in the torque band. And if I slam the accelerator, I'm rewarded by peak HP at high revs, unlike a diesel.


Of course I'm simplifying here, but fundamentally the above is why manuals are more fun with the TDI, but TSI is just as much fun with the DSG.

How much more fun, you ask: I drove the Jetta DSG and up to 100-110kmph, in real world driving conditions (not 0-100 speed runs) my manual 1.6 TDI felt like the peppier car. Mind you, I'm talking about the driving experience, not stats, but that is finally what we live by.

I hope the above clarified.

P.S.: On a separate note, it is a scandal that the Chandigarh showroom doesn't have the two cars. I guess the test drive cars were sold to customers - just drop a mail to VW and watch the magic happen. Incidentally, the Gurgaon showroom has both the TSI & TDI DSGs, so get a test drive here in case you're ever visit.

[rosaf]

Originally Posted by graaja

Not sure if your question is for manual or DSG. On an incline, the ECU automatically increases the throttle to keep the RPM - and hence the speed - constant. If the slope is too high that increase in throttle input is not enough to maintain RPM, the DSG will have the flexibility to downshift and maintain speed. Not sure what happens in a manual transmission in this scenario.

Sir i was referring to DSG.

Thank you once again for giving the exact answer i was looking for.

[fireblade007]

Does the 1.5 tdi manual lose out on driving pleasure as compared to the discontinued 1.6 tdi manual?

[sunilsoft]

Originally Posted by fireblade007

Does the 1.5 tdi manual lose out on driving pleasure as compared to the discontinued 1.6 tdi manual?

We can say it has lost the outright punch that 1.6 used to give but is more drivable in city. Those who have driven the 1.6 versions will be able to tell the difference of state of engine. Still the clutch feels heavy and one must go for the DSG variant if the pocket allows.

[RavSam]

Originally Posted by Brute_force

Okay. Having gotten my new car (which of course is Vento TDI -MT) on 01-May-2015, I am now going to blast the sales representative as to why he didn't tell me that there was going to be a face-lift soon....
MOD: I am not sure if this question I posed here belongs here, please do move the post if you feel it is not supposed to be here. Cheers.

Having been in this profession before I can tell you that NO ONE will tell you of an upcoming face-lift if they have stock of the current car lying around.
He must've got a hefty incentive for selling you the pre-facelift model and hence, it is up to the customer to research before purchase.
They are there to make money and not be our well-wishers.
Anyway, the changes are not very dramatic and so there's no reason for you to be sad about it. Enjoy your ride.

[Guite]

Visited VW showroom today. Facelift launch is slated for 22nd June.

On a different note, my wife observed that the Vento driver footwell is shallower than the Skoda Rapid. Can this be true? Isn't just the skin different between these two cars?