[BeantownThinker]

Originally Posted by adarsh76

The government is increasing pollution levels by increased prices of Petrol which has lesser FE and lesser pollution and lesser prices of Diesel which has high FE and high pollution. Despite this, the Diesel cars sales getting lower is a positive trend on human and other living beings health.

What I am going to say now may be treated with anger from Diesel car owners. I strongly feel that it is time government should provide subsidized rates for Diesel only for essential services Diesel and petrol prices should be as of actual production costs with tax percentage same for both of them.

This is definitely not going to happen, but then it is left to God only for the well being of the living species in this planet.

Probably, I typed something like a preacher but I also pollute by driving too much . But isn't it something we should seriously think on?

Dear Adarsh76,

Do you know under BS4, the norms for regulated pollutants for a diesel passenger vehicle is far stricter than that for a petrol vehicle? And the reason for this is because diesels are less polluting that petrols. Pollution is not just what you see coming out from the tail-pipe but also who you do NOT see.

Also are you not aware that the diesel freely available at all fuel stations are no longer subsidised but are available at MARKET rate? The reason diesel prices are lesser than petrol prices is because in the refining process it is cheaper to extract diesel from crude oil than petrol.

Coming back to the topic on hand, why petrols are selling more than diesels in the passenger vehicle segment is the high initial costs of the diesel, perceived pollution levels and of course, the noise levels. When evaluated logically, the diesels equal the petrols in Total Cost of Ownership after the 3rd year onwards, even with the high initial costs of the diesels.

But then everyone has their own preference. And now is the time for the petrols to gain back what they have lost over the past few years.

[adarsh76]

Originally Posted by BeantownThinker

Dear Adarsh76,

Do you know under BS4, the norms for regulated pollutants for a diesel passenger vehicle is far stricter than that for a petrol vehicle? And the reason for this is because diesels are less polluting that petrols. Pollution is not just what you see coming out from the tail-pipe but also who you do NOT see.

Also are you not aware that the diesel freely available at all fuel stations are no longer subsidised but are available at MARKET rate? The reason diesel prices are lesser than petrol prices is because in the refining process it is cheaper to extract diesel from crude oil than petrol.

Coming back to the topic on hand, why petrols are selling more than diesels in the passenger vehicle segment is the high initial costs of the diesel, perceived pollution levels and of course, the noise levels. When evaluated logically, the diesels equal the petrols in Total Cost of Ownership after the 3rd year onwards, even with the high initial costs of the diesels.

But then everyone has their own preference. And now is the time for the petrols to gain back what they have lost over the past few years.

Dear Beantown,

I'm never saying Petrol is a clean fuel. With catalytic converters in Petrol engines the emissions of CO is now lesser but still its polluting. However, as far as the information I have seen over articles, it is said that Diesel emission is more harmful than Petrol. Below are a couple of links which made me tell that:

http://www.air-quality.org.uk/26.php
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/j...s-worse-petrol
http://www.theguardian.com/environme...-air-pollution

It is still a big debate on which is a cleaner fuel. Even if Diesel is more harmful, petrol is no angel. It is high time some other clean alternative is introduced at the earliest.

However, on the contrary on what you said, the production cost of Petrol from crude is lesser than Diesel. There was a complete breakdown of prices of both Diesel and Petrol in Times of India newspaper but I could not find that. I found only the below for your reference. This is not that reader friendly though.

http://www.mycarhelpline.com/index.p...=417&Itemid=10

[SPARKled]

I for one am sold on diesels. I am not a high RPM junkie and mostly drive around 1800-2500 RPM, just about the perfect range for my diesel Figo and Ritz. No petrol with this cubic capacity can give me 17kmpl in the city. I do not mind paying the high upfront cost for a diesel car as I keep my cars for 7 years at least. What I really dislike is the high cost of running for petrol fuel and this was the biggest pain I had when I owned petrol cars. The fact that its a cleaner and not to mention again a cheaper fuel only adds to its charm.

So my next car will be a diesel as well and I am not at all concerned with this trend.

[TaurusAl]

Originally Posted by SPARKled

I for one am sold on diesels. I am not a high RPM junkie and mostly drive around 1800-2500 RPM, just about the perfect range for my diesel Figo and Ritz. No petrol with this cubic capacity can give me 17kmpl in the city. I do not mind paying the high upfront cost for a diesel car as I keep my cars for 7 years at least. What I really dislike is the high cost of running for petrol fuel and this was the biggest pain I had when I owned petrol cars. The fact that its a cleaner and not to mention again a cheaper fuel only adds to its charm.

So my next car will be a diesel as well and I am not at all concerned with this trend.

Exactly my emotions. I feel I am addicted to the diesel torque or Ritz and I am always unhappy driving a petrol car. Its not always about the money for some and that's why we all are here on Team BHP as we are all enthusiasts.

For the next car, I intend to buy a car which does not have a petrol version. No Confusion

[AutoNoob]

Originally Posted by theexperthand

Even though my usage do not justify a diesel, I went for diesel because I was more comfortable.... was sure that I will never break even.... I always loved the diesel engine characteristics...

Originally Posted by geotracks

view point of frequent gas station visits and spending more during each gas station visit... each time a petrol vehicle owner like me goes to a gas station and has to make 'more frequent trips' (lesser mileage) and 'pay more', keeps one thinking....

I did a lengthy and complex calculation when I bought my car (petrol) due to budget limitations. But I am definitely going to buy a diesel next time, simply for its driving pleasure and longer range.

Also, with lesser trips to fuel station and lower recurring expense, I will have happy days. Initial pinch will surely be forgotten within a month of purchase.

Originally Posted by SPARKled

... The fact that its a cleaner...

AFAIK, diesel is dirtier of the two. Higher obnoxious oxides (NOx, SOx etc) and higher tailpipe particle count are characterisitics of diesel engines. These are more harmful as compared with other constituents of exhaust gas. With technology advancement, indeed diesels have become much cleaner than yester years, but at the same time petrol engines have advanced further. So, diesel technology is playing a catch-up game.

[geotracks]

Originally Posted by AutoNoob

Also, with lesser trips to fuel station and lower recurring expense, I will have happy days. Initial pinch will surely be forgotten within a month of purchase.

Very similar thoughts and agree. Like I said earlier, lower diesel prices in India are there to stay at least for next few years. Petrol users will be taking the larger hit in terms of price hikes, each time.

[amit]

Interesting article from ACI on Vento TDi DSG dominating sales of that model. The diesel DSG accounts for 40% of Vento sales!

Could it be that the swing towards petrol cars is also because A/T is available on most of the petrol variants only?

[Renjith_Mani]

Originally Posted by amit

Interesting article from ACI on Vento TDi DSG dominating sales of that model. The diesel DSG accounts for 40% of Vento sales!

Could it be that the swing towards petrol cars is also because A/T is available on most of the petrol variants only?

This is a very valid observation. The city crowd is not making a shift towards A/T cars and this obviously work in favour of petrol cars.

I do not support the view that petrol cars offer less pollution and therefore they are better cars. Its a very grey area even for experts.

[landcruiser123]

The narrowing of price gap between diesel and petrol cars is the primary explanation for this. Also, many people bought diesel cars when diesel was cheap and their running would allow them to break even.

As mentioned by a lot of people, the NGT ruling may have some part to play in this.

I'll not be surprised when this trend again reverses with the introduction of more Turbo petrols. With downsizing becoming common, Turbo petrols are going to get common and will be under the hood of every car.

[atnyia]

I was just curious. Is there a mod to diesel cars that can reduce PPM 2.5 pollution. I read that one diesel car pollutes equal to 12 petrol cars.

[sgiitk]

Let me add my views:

1. Unless you are doing at least 20,000km per annum stick to petrol.
2.Diesel is cheaper due to lower taxation. Remember in many countries Diesel is marginally more expensive - UK, Germany, Switzerland, etc.
3. Now with the NGT trying to limit the life of a Diesel car to 10 years as against 15 for a petrol (I personally oppose both attempts), that may also be a factor.
4. Diesel is far more prone to adulteration (Kerosene) than Petrol (Naphtha).

I personally will like to see the same pollution norms for both Petrol and Diesel vehicles - a la US of A.

[adarsh76]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

Let me add my views:

1. Unless you are doing at least 20,000km per annum stick to petrol.
2.Diesel is cheaper due to lower taxation. Remember in many countries Diesel is marginally more expensive - UK, Germany, Switzerland, etc.
3. Now with the NGT trying to limit the life of a Diesel car to 10 years as against 15 for a petrol (I personally oppose both attempts), that may also be a factor.
4. Diesel is far more prone to adulteration (Kerosene) than Petrol (Naphtha).

I personally will like to see the same pollution norms for both Petrol and Diesel vehicles - a la US of A.

My views on the above points:

1. Very much valid point mainly due to the higher maintenance cost and potential engine breakdown on certain cars after 80K to 100K kms. However, Toyota diesel engines are an exception here. Lesser maintenance costs and a very good engine life.
2. This was exactly my point in my thread above. Diesel is costlier in almost all countries including OPEC countries like UAE.
3. Ofcourse, limiting the life of Diesel and Petrol cars would hit second car sales but again considering the environment side, it is going to be a positive factor. And if this is implemented, resale value of Diesel cars are going to have a major impact. I guess this would be limited to only heavy and commercial vehicles.
4. Does modern diesel engines react well to adulterated fuel?

Based on another comment that lack of A/T's is driving petrol car's demand, that is a very much valid point. Personally, I did check A/T Diesel cars, but during the launch of Honda City 2014, there was only Verna Diesel available in the A/T trim. The FE of Verna A/T as reported by many owners was in the range of 11 - 15 in City and Highways which did not make any sense to buy it combined with higher maintenance costs. The TDI DSGs of Rapid and Vento expected to return higher FE, still not many numbers are reported in the sales chart probably due to the fear of higher service costs.

[bulletboy76]

The Diesel vehicles sales seem to have taken a serious hit.

Saw an advertisement in Pune's leading local news paper today by Maruti - Stating benefits of INR 65,000 on Swift DZire (D)!

[srinih75]

The more complex the hydro carbon chain gets the more it will begin to pollute. If we are to synthesise one similar to methanol or ethanol it would be the best for all. The result is lower FE but it will produce only two gases - CO2 and CO. In an ICE its difficult to avoid CO as this particular gas is a result of partially burnt fuel.

The main reason we see better FE in diesel is due to its higher calorific value. So per mole of this fuel you get higher kilo Jules of energy. This is why we don't see high HP heavy duty machines running on gasoline. Diesel for this same reason generates higher watts at lower RPMs. For gasoline engine you need to maintain a higher RPM and on a heavy duty motor the life of the engine will be limited.

Should we shun diesel engines? I will not recommend it. As I saw in the posts it is true for long haul diesel is the answer. With good catconv attached to the tail pipe we can reduce a lot of the poisonous gases.

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by srinih75

1. The more complex the hydro carbon chain gets the more it will begin to pollute.

2. The main reason we see better FE in diesel is due to its higher calorific value.

1. It is not just about more complex, but heavier the hydrocarbon (=higher molecular weight), the less efficiently it will burn (thus producing soot, carbon particles). The higher the molecular weight, the higher is the density, viscosity, boiling point etc and these physical properties again make it a significantly polluting fuel due to non ideal fluid mechanics.

In addition, higher the molecular weight, the more sulfur content found. Therefore you need to have more (and of higher severity) of sulfur reduction processes for Diesel compared to Petrol.

2. Increased fuel efficiency in diesel engine is also attributable to the higher temperatures achieved in the ignition cycle. The higher the temperature achieved, the more efficient is conversion of heat to mechanical work. In fact higher temperature heat is nearly universally know as high quality heat, and lower temperature heat is known as low quality heat.

Incidentally, it is this high temperature that makes diesel more polluting than petrol engine. High temperatures allow more NOx to form.

Originally Posted by BeantownThinker

Dear Adarsh76,

1. Do you know under BS4, the norms for regulated pollutants for a diesel passenger vehicle is far stricter than that for a petrol vehicle? And the reason for this is because diesels are less polluting that petrols. Pollution is not just what you see coming out from the tail-pipe but also who you do NOT see.

2. Also are you not aware that the diesel freely available at all fuel stations are no longer subsidised but are available at MARKET rate? The reason diesel prices are lesser than petrol prices is because in the refining process it is cheaper to extract diesel from crude oil than petrol.

1. Diesel are always more polluting than petrol. Whether you check the carbon particles or SOx or NOx or othe emissions. The only reason why you may have a tail pipe reading of diesel vehicle low is because of pollution control mechanisms inside.

2. Cost of manufacturing of Euro spec diesel* will always turn out to be more expensive. When you refine crude, it is the heavier fractions that retain most of the sulfur. Therefore you need to invest heavily in terms of refining processes to tame down this sulfur. It is not just the sulfur reduction units (hydrotreaters) that needs to be set up but also the allied units like hydrogen generation, sulfur recovery etc.

The reason diesel prices are lower than petrol is because of lower taxes and duties.




* If we are not concerned with reduced sulfur content, then diesel turns out to be cheaper since diesel can be had from straight run fractionation. Whereas in case of petrol, the straight run product is poor octane no. and cannot be used in petrol engines, thus you are forced to have another unit to crack heavy fractions and produce higher octane no. petrol.