[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by DieselAddikt

How can you say that this car is as safe as the others ? There is no crash test data to prove it. It is the same for people who say lighter cars are less safe. But here is how some people including me arrive at the conclusion that lighter cars are less safer.

Because I believe in 'innocent unless proven guilty' instead of 'guilty unless proven otherwise'.

Originally Posted by DieselAddikt

1. Before some people jump in and tell me that modern cars crumple because they have crumple zones, it would be a wise idea to see a few videos and get educated on crumple zones. Just check the "Accidents in India" thread in our own forum and see how many Marutis have this in place ? In any accident involving a Maruti (unless it is a fender bender), you can see that that whole car has been in a mangled state. Here again, before telling me that I am talking about the remains of the car that has been cut open to save the occupants, that statement will speak for itself. Why did the car go into such a pathetic state that people were to be saved after cutting the car open ? Reason is just what I said; the car crumpled like a tin can that it was not possible to take the occupants out by opening / breaking the door. The roof had to be cut open. And that is not a virtue of a safe car.

Now that you mentioned, I should start educating myself on crumple zones by watching YouTube videos which obviously never occurred to me. Also, I will completely ignore all other vehicles in mangled state in accident thread and focus only on Marutis.

Originally Posted by DieselAddikt

Note: This is not only about Maruti, it is the same with all manufacturers who produce light weight cars for India.

Everybody knows that it is same all manufacturers in India then why single out the Baleno? At least Maruti initiated providing safety features though their effectiveness will be known with time.

Regarding tin cans, I do get irritated by them as they get dents even when people standing against them when parked. But I am sure the crumple zones in these tin cans helps as I have a first hand experience of one such accident. I will not just write them off based on assumptions.

[romeomidhun]

Originally Posted by dark.knight

Major correction there, Hyundai exported cars from India to U.K, Australia & New Zealand (the Getz & i20-first gen) since both regions use RHD. The LHD models were manufactured in Turkey for rest of Europe. Now, the RHD models that were exported were the same as the ones locally made except for minor variations in features & interiors. The Getz did indeed score 4 stars in ENCAP during its era which was more than a few sedans of that era (at that time there was no fail or pass per se, just star ratings of 1-5. Its successor the i20 with 6 airbags scored a full 5 stars in 2008. Of course the Indian models which did not have 6 airbags obviously will not get the same score but build quality wise it was the same since the U.K, NZ, Australian & Indian variants shared the same kerb weight. The export variants just had better engines like the 1.4 & 1.6 GDI for Getz & 1.4 GDI for i20 & thus certain differences in total weight.

Now from what I understand since the demand growth in India rose, India no longer seemed a viable global export hub, plus the Grand i10 + the current i20 began as Indian spec cars (i.e not as well engineered) which was the reverse of what happened earlier. Hence it was decided that the Turkey plant will produce both LHD & RHD for Europe while India will cater to South Asian region. Only the India-produced model of Elite i20 failed Aus-NCAP (due to non-availability of electronic assists like ESP, lack of 6 airbags & other new-age assists like LDW etc, on the face of it, it had very little to do with body rigidity per se, although clearly it may be inferior to the Turkey made i20).



Agree, the Getz makes most Hyundai cars (except Elantra & above) seem not so solid or well handling. While the Elite i20 & Grand i10 are great to touch, feel and shut, the Getz is a whole level above. They compared Swift to the Getz when both sold alongside each other, I'd say there is no contest as to what wins.

Please stop fanboyism. India made i10 lost the body integrity on crash test. Check your facts.

[dark.knight]

Originally Posted by romeomidhun

Please stop fanboyism. India made i10 lost the body integrity on crash test. Check your facts.

Yes, when did I deny that an Indian-made i10 lost the body integrity in a recently held 2013 Global-NCAP testing? It did fail because it wasn't a made for Europe model and clearly Indian makes are de-engineered as I've already mentioned in the last post. As far the Euro-NCAP goes in 2008 the i10 scored 4 stars as can be seen here http://www.euroncap.com/en/results/hyundai/i10/15761. In the PDF the Euro spec model is over a 100 kgs heaver than the Indian made one.

That's not to say that it will get the same 4 stars today, the standards of testing go up every year as safety norms gain importance, it may not even get 2 stars today but that rating was pertinent to that period. I have only mentioned i20 & Getz as cars with stable build.

[manishkapadia]

Originally Posted by Leoshashi

Swift already has ongoing discounts in the tune of 50k since the past one week.

Regards,
Shashi

Are you sure about the discount. Which city is this discount available. Here in Mumbai the dealers quoted only Rs 15000 discount for the swift ZXI and seem not too bothered with the Baleno launch or pricing. In fact when we talked about Baleno with the Swift Salesman, he said i will have my NEXA guy call you. The owners of the NEXA showrooms are same and atleast here the show rooms are within 100 Metres of each other.

[WRXXX]

Originally Posted by DriveOnceMore

On the same note, have you watched the video in the post above?
They have shown that (@ 2.59 sec) that they have reduced the front and rear cross members in size. I am not sure, but that frontal member works with firewall in absorbing the shock in case of crash. Am I right?
If yes then it makes me worry.

But I also believe the R & D engineers of Suzuki and quite sure that they must have done good structural analysis. I won't post anything more about safety of Baleno unless any further crash test reports are revealed.

Yes, I am not sure if it means anything unless I am a structural design engineer.
What they seem to be focusing on is to divert the crash energy away from cabin which sounds right on paper. I am sure at least for this development engineers have to do lot of hard work and crash testing. Lets hope Suzuki is not fooling people here.

In fact Swift had a great design it is the dilution of construction and quality that caused it to fail and same case with many made in India cars. Unless there is a stringent local crash and safety regulation enforcement nothing much can be done in this regard I suppose. Lets pray that such a thing to come into effect soon.

Another point is we can't rely on crash test report of exported Balenos, we need the crash test report of Made in India and Made for India Baleno to be tested like Euro NCAP team did. Great souls! I should say!

[Leoshashi]

Originally Posted by manishkapadia

Are you sure about the discount. Which city is this discount available. Here in Mumbai the dealers quoted only Rs 15000 discount for the swift ZXI and seem not too bothered with the Baleno launch or pricing. In fact when we talked about Baleno with the Swift Salesman, he said i will have my NEXA guy call you. The owners of the NEXA showrooms are same and atleast here the show rooms are within 100 Metres of each other.

The city where this offer is applicable is Ranchi, Jharkhand. I am posting the break-up of the offers as explained by dealer.
1. Rs.20,000 discount
2. Rs.10,000 Corporate discount(offer applicable for PSU and Govt. Employees)
3. Rs.5,000 loyalty bonus discount if RC book of an existing Maruti car is presented.
So Rs.35,000 straightaway discount on the Ex-showroom price.

Other than that, Rs.20,000 exchange bonus, Rs.10,000 extra discount if I take finance from them.
They also have an offer running that customer gets a 1g to 10g gold coin on every booking if done before 31st October(which I am sure will be extended to Diwali )

These all were told by SA. When we bargained hard, he also promised us MGA accessories or any other service worth 10k for free.

The Diesel Swift has a bit more discount. He also told me that "V" trim has got even more discount, but since my cousin was determined to own a car with airbags, we ignored it.

Hope it helps.

Regards,
Shashi

[WRXXX]

While people wait for the T-bhp official review, they can use another detailed review from TAI here.

[KreativeGeek]

MS has grabbed 4,600 bookings for Baleno since launch announcement, this is a very positive start for the new premium hatchback , what remains to be seen is the actual impact on numbers for competition in next months sales analysis.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/49569007.cms

On another note MS also tops JD Power India CSI rating for after sales service customer satisfaction for straight 16th year.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/49594139.cms

[romeomidhun]

Originally Posted by KreativeGeek

MS has grabbed 4,600 bookings for Baleno since launch announcement, this is a very positive start for the new premium hatchback , what remains to be seen is the actual impact on numbers for competition in next months sales analysis.

Not only to competition, but it will affect its own stable mates Swift and DZire! Baleno can seriously affect the Swift / Dzire sales as it is priced right in between them, and is more VFM.

[volkman10]

Have seen in past days the crowds at Nexa Palace (Mandovi) and decided to step in today.

So on a Friday afternoon 3:10 pm, here is the scenario, crowded to see the Baleno. Police making the most. collecting fines for crowds parked on the main road!

Status:
All variants of Baleno command a 12 week waiting period.
250 + bookings as on date.

Car looked good in Ray blue, seem built to match its peers in this segment ( Except the German brand which is built like a tank)

Good part is there is movement and enquirers for the S Cross too. 2 cars were in the delivery bay for dispatch.
S Cross, DDiS200 waiting period ~ 4 weeks

[DieselAddikt]

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

Because I believe in 'innocent unless proven guilty' instead of 'guilty unless proven otherwise'.

They were proven guilty with the crash test results for Swift. Now they come up with a car that is lighter than Swift and is in the same price range. I seriously do not think any groundbreaking technology was used. High tensile strength materials and at similar price point with all the added features in Baleno ? Then why did they not use it in Swift that was made in India ? It was similarly priced too.

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

Now that you mentioned, I should start educating myself on crumple zones by watching YouTube videos which obviously never occurred to me. Also, I will completely ignore all other vehicles in mangled state in accident thread and focus only on Marutis.

Apologies for that. I should have put it in a better way. What I meant is that there is a difference between crumple zones and crumpled cars. For me, a car has a well engineered crumple zone when the front of the car disintegrates so as to absorb energy and protect the cabin. I agree it depends a lot on the force with which the vehicle collided. But the cabin should at least be in a state where you can get the victims out without cutting open the roof as long as the car did not end up getting run over by a truck or something like that. I know it is a different story during very high speed crashes. I have seen a Handa City collide with a mini lorry head on. The Honda City might have been 2010 model or similar. The front was completely crushed and the car was damaged beyond repair. But the cabin compartment was intact. I know that the impact was at a very good speed as the car had overtaken me just around 30 seconds back on a curve. Even the windshield was not damaged. That was a perfect example for a crumple zone at work. But the pictures and crash test results of cars these days do not look good at all. Even Honda has come down in quality trying to compete with Maruti in the price war.

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

Everybody knows that it is same all manufacturers in India then why single out the Baleno? At least Maruti initiated providing safety features though their effectiveness will be known with time.

Agreed. We can wait for the crash test results. Or I should check the weight of Balenos sold in India and in EU. If they are at least comparable, then I do not have a reason to doubt the structural integrity of the car until proven otherwise. I will try and get more information on that for my own benefit.

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

Regarding tin cans, I do get irritated by them as they get dents even when people standing against them when parked. But I am sure the crumple zones in these tin cans helps as I have a first hand experience of one such accident. I will not just write them off based on assumptions.

I am just the opposite. Dents/scratches do not irritate me at all. But I am afraid to think what will happen to the car and it's occupants when if I even get involved in an unfortunate incident. However, there is an advantage in being pessimistic about the structural integrity of the car I drive. I tend to be more and more careful when I drive. (It might also have something to do with me getting older)

Cheers Sir. Once again, apologies if you felt bad about my previous post. I did not mean any harm. It was just my frustration turning into a rant. I will wait for the crash results before I comment more. Really wish the car does well during tests (if at all one is conducted on a car made for India).

[MetalBuff]

^ To above, a big thumbs up! I don't know about the rest but, I am without a vehicle (as I parted ways with my beloved just 4 days ago) and was all set to book the Baleno. Had the crash ratings been published and were good enough or if it was proved that the structure weight/ quality of the model set for sale in India and Europe are the same, God knows there's absolutely no reason for me(and a lot of us here who are fighting fire with fire) to not put my money on this car!

All in all, everyone needs to understand that stuff is backed by facts and trust once broken stays impaired for a long while. Till MSIL has the requisite data ready to back their claims about tensile steel being used and how it is actualy helping the cause, I can't and won't be able to trust them with my safety and money. Yes, things may be different if, my previous observations are proved otherwise when I go visit another showroom just to check out another set of cars.

That being said, if I find the build quality better/ very close to the Swift, I would cut the cheque then and there as, I would know what I am signing up for. Anything similar or lower than my first impressions, and I WILL back off! 'cause if I don't, this would be a deeper ditch to fall into.

People who are currently in the market to pick up a new ride are the only losers for, we do not have the luxury of trusting MSIL once again or waiting it out for a year for the crash ratings to be published!

Cheerio,
-Shivang Gandotra

[Chillout]

I understand all of us are passionate about our drives and equally care about our family safety and our own safety.

If car manufacturers don't publish about safety ratings ahead of sale, then only government and individuals are to be blamed.

Government for not forumlating proper norms and individuals buying cars which do not meet safety standards. A lot of cars failed crash testing or performed poorly, but they continue to be sold and people lap up the same.

So finally one decides to buy cars based on their needs and for aam junta, safety takes a back seat and only a few of us are concerned about safety and all. No manufacturer is going to take care of this miniscule population but we will always do our best to bring it to the attention of the wider audience and make them understand what safety features are meant for.

Baleno has Airbags, ABS, EBD, however the major concern is the crash impact, unfortunately all of us would only be able to speculate about it, we need to get factual results from an accredited center.

Till then go feel the car, if you think its built to last and take care of your safety, buy it else buy the car that meets your safety requirements.

[chncar]

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

Because I believe in 'innocent unless proven guilty' instead of 'guilty unless proven otherwise'.

You are extrapolating something related to individual freedoms, to product quality standards.

Nobody gives the benefit of doubt to a machine, otherwise there wouldn't be any point to standards, tests or certifications.

Not to mention that Maruti has a track record of making unsafe cars and showing a negligent and patronizing attitude towards the safety of Indians, as exemplified by the statements and excuses given by their senior management in the past. They might be trying to change things now by introducing airbags in more variants, but they will have to prove themselves first, and some time will have to pass before they can get rid of their reputation.

[.Albatross.]

Originally Posted by sourabhzen

Because I believe in 'innocent unless proven guilty' instead of 'guilty unless proven otherwise'.

Sir, with all due respect I feel like putting forward a question to you.

Until proved otherwise , who would you like to experiment upon , yourself, your knowns, friends, fellow BHPians or fellow Indians to evaluate it?

I solely blame the authorities to let these companies sell unrated products. I first saw an ISI (safety) marking on the front of the LPG gas stove about 27 years back(the last i can remember) but I still dont see a safety marking on the cars sold in India. If there are safety and efficiency ratings for electronics ,then why not for automobiles? Are there more incidents involving automobiles every year or LPG stove malfunction?

The automobile game is as fair as WWF (now WWE) . A day of reckoning shall come, some enough!