[XD2]

'A step forward' could have meant multiple things. Ditching the running boards, adding a locker is definitely a step forward. The bumper - assuming a CMVR requirement - can be easily done away with.

But the beige interiors seem really out of place. There were lots of ways to achieve a more premium feel, whilst retaining the character it represents. Typing Jeep Wrangler interior gives a plethora of ideas. Although it does also bring up a few beige option : the black has a clear edge.

[mukul32]

Originally Posted by GTO

What you say about the 2015 Thar is what MM550 owners said about the original 2011 Thar. It never stops with Jeep lovers.

Well, given the urbanization of the Jeep in form of the Thar, this argument could already be seen coming from the purists, isn't it? But yes, the rawness is a big part of the original Jeep's character, and Mahindra have cleverly kept the right parts of it intact. It is now very acceptable and quite up to date, but yet it reminds you every single time that it's ultimately a Jeep. It doesn't want to go and become a regular car that looks and feels like a Jeep. And that is where the argument of bringing in people to the "Jeep experience" holds true, because it's still a real Jeep experience, not a forked out car experience that positions itself as a Jeep (Now I bet such a concept would've also found takers, though the purists would've bashed it to no end).

Now, going slightly off topic here, but what the Thar is to the original Jeep, the way the Jeep DNA was kept intact while also filing out the rough edges; same way the modern "SUV's" should have been to the original concept of the SUV.
But these days, anything that rides even a little high and is not a sedan, is being side-cladded, roof-railed, and diesel-ed out, and being touted as an "SUV" in our market. For example, the likes of the Creta, Beemer X1, Merc GLA, and even the 2WD AT Fortuner, aren't exactly real SUV's. Okay, the Fortuner AT will still manage a fair bit of mud, but it is not meant to BE a real SUV. That's why the 4WD was taken out, and the AT added, to aid city slicking. It is essentially meant to be only a high riding family car in SUV clothes, and despite its size and build, is really no more of a proper SUV than say, an i20 active. And it is recognized as a proper SUV! Similarly, a GL (Oops, GLS now, isn't it?) if sold without it's 4MATIC and other adventure gear, would be virtually no different to an R-Class (if I'm not wrong, the R-Class had 4MATIC too, but it's certainly not meant to be anywhere near a real SUV).

Not meaning to say that off -road ability or 4WD is the only criteria to distinguish an SUV, but the overall 'adventure' factor definitely is one. And that factor forms the core identity of the SUV. Not just space, lots of seats, big size, diesel drivetrain (Come on, it's not just the economics. Most people, especially in our country associate SUV's and diesel very firmly. Somebody show them petrol defenders!!), a high view of the road, and the ability to intimidate traffic. By that logic, the Volvo B9R will be the ultimate SUV!!! :banghead:

For example, take the Yeti. It's a proper urban car. Yet it is very much a proper SUV too, and has the 'adventure' side intact. Even Mahindra vehicles, let them be crossovers (XUV), or rural UV's (Bolero), when they are sold as SUV's, they have that adventure DNA in them to justify the SUV tag. An extreme example, even the mighty Range Rover, which is big on the luxury factor, and in fact rivals luxury sedans, is still very true to the idea of an SUV, and doesn't compromise any of the off-road cred to raise the luxury cred.

On the flip side, a Creta for instance, is no more than a regular car, and even 'negotiating' a typical monsoon pothole will be an 'adventure' for it. Yet it's being called an 'SUV', and will sell AS AN SUV over a real SUV, like a Scorpio. Ditto for the X1. Or even the S-Cross. Which actually takes it too far. Now MS might cleverly call it just a 'crossover', but the market sees it very much as an SUV, and it is also meant to rival similarly priced SUV's, as an SUV. And all these sell big. They might be hardly flawed as overall products, and might also make lot of sense as cars, but marketing all of them as SUV's is not exactly fair. This does have an effect on the concept of the real SUV as a tough off-road oriented vehicle, and these guys happily cash in on it.

And interestingly, SUV's are also closely associated with Jeeps in general, and even common public, who don't know the concept of SUV's still refer to these SUV's as 'Jeeps', and associate them with one another.

So dear Jeepers and SUV fans, while we have immense pride over our Jeeps and Defenders and LC's, and try and keep it all as pure as possible, the carmakers who want to make money, are busy modifying the concept of an SUV as they wish, and the buyers, who don't care one bit about the real 'adventure' part of SUV's, are willingly giving in. And thus they take disadvantage of the 'Adventure' image built around Jeeps and by extension SUV's, by real Jeepers, and dilute the brand.
Worth a thought, I say.

[Steeroid]

Someone posted prices that were a lakh-plus higher than current a couple of days back, and I made a comment on that.

For about 50k plus, this is a great deal. Eaton Diff Locks and the neater dash (without the sharp edges that cut you) alone are good enough.

That goofy bumper can be ditched at the showroom, or better still sold to a poseur who wants to jazz up his older Thar (there will be plenty of those!).

Nothing much to crib about, really. I know there is a separate thread for this, but which HT is the best option available for this vehicle?

[Tapish]

Originally Posted by Parm

Some wise guy wished and then developed a 4WD vehicle by his heart, he wanted to give to us Indians the feel of a JEEP.

Thar has turned into such a success, unimaginable by the marketing "MBAs" that they are slowly turning it into a SUV with bits and pieces of luxury creeping in.

Originally Posted by Ashley Nair

True to the very last letter. A true jeeper gave us a simple Jeep with character. The bloody unimaginable fools at Mahindra, in his absence, has turned it to a bling vehicle, proper to be driven by ladies to clubs. Thar is lost forever

I don't understand the obsession with bad interiors/ zero creature comforts. Here in the US, the entire line of Jeep, Wrangler upwards is available with all creature comforts, including heated seats, good interiors, AVN systems, etc befitting a vehicle that costs as much as any other vehicle on road. That does not interfere with the capabilities of the vehicle in any manner. Nor are the people demanding better comforts any less "macho".

Not everyone has jeeping as a full time passion. People who need to go to work need all creature comforts as well. Reaching office drenched in sweat in the sweltering heat just because you love jeeps is not my idea of passion.

Tapish

[Steeroid]

Originally Posted by mukul32

Most people, especially in our country associate SUV's and diesel very firmly. Somebody show them petrol defenders!!

You'll have to look very hard to find that lot - 99% of Defenders sold had a diesel engine. Very few numbers were made with the 3.9 Disco engine (and badged 4.0) for the North American Market, dubbed the NAS (North American Spec) Defender.

Originally Posted by mukul32

Even Mahindra vehicles, let them be crossovers (XUV), or rural UV's (Bolero), when they are sold as SUV's, they have that adventure DNA in them to justify the SUV tag.

Why? Because they have Mahindra in their name?

Originally Posted by mukul32

On the flip side, a Creta for instance, is no more than a regular car, and even 'negotiating' a typical monsoon pothole will be an 'adventure' for it. Yet it's being called an 'SUV', and will sell AS AN SUV over a real SUV, like a Scorpio. Ditto for the X1. Or even the S-Cross.

Why so? Because it doesn't have Mahindra in the name? How many of the aforementioned Mahindras sold were 4x4? Probably significantly less in percentage terms than the petrol Defenders if you remove defence sales. All are heavy (and in the case of the Bolero, grossly underpowered) 2WDs mostly, and if am not mistaken the Scorpio's GC is less than that in the Duster and the Creta (probably the S-cross too, though unsure) too. Why is a heavy, outdated and often shoddily built 2WD vehicle with poor GC and lower power/torque to weight fit to be called an SUV over lighter, more powerful and higher 2WD vehicles that are more modern and offer more value for the money you pay?

IMHO none of the above deserve the SUV tag. The ancient ones are MUVs and the newer ones qualify for Crossover (with 4wd) or CUV (without any 4wd pretensions) status.

Originally Posted by mukul32

And interestingly, SUV's are also closely associated with Jeeps in general, and even common public, who don't know the concept of SUV's still refer to these SUV's as 'Jeeps', and associate them with one another.

In India perhaps, & thanks mostly to the license raj. Where I come from, Jeeps are generally at the receiving end of off-roader jokes more often than not. It might surprise people here, but SUVs from many manufacturers outsell the Jeep range several times over.

And where toughness matters, you're more likely to find Toyota LCs and old LRs/RR classics being relied on than Jeeps. A "Jeep" is an interesting vehicle for some hobbyists, and is pretty much a lifestyle accessory like the HDs than real utility vehicles.

When performance and reliability are critical, most people plonk their money on a Toyota. Unless you're Brit, in which case you'd go with an LR - which for all its faults is virtually indestructible and easily serviceable.

[lurker]

Originally Posted by man23ish

It is "Semi-Elliptical Leaf Springs" in the Rear. The salesman at India Garage claimed that the suspension has actually improved as compared to the earlier Thar.

that is same as there was in previous edition. Thing is a short wheelbase vehicle with no possibilities of carrying heavy loads in the rear and mostly single-driven by the owner and 90% of the time on-road should have independent rear suspension atleast as an option for those who may prefer that.

It is very much possible that Mahindra may increase the price in next update which includes independent rear suspension for a lakh extra. The thing then is, that this Jeep fetish is soon losing value for money proposition.

[johy]

Originally Posted by Tapish

I don't understand the obsession with bad interiors/ zero creature comforts. Here in the US, the entire line of Jeep, Wrangler upwards is available with all creature comforts, including heated seats, good interiors, AVN systems, etc befitting a vehicle that costs as much as any other vehicle on road. That does not interfere with the capabilities of the vehicle in any manner. Nor are the people demanding better comforts any less "macho".

Not everyone has jeeping as a full time passion. People who need to go to work need all creature comforts as well. Reaching office drenched in sweat in the sweltering heat just because you love jeeps is not my idea of passion.

Tapish

Exactly, what I have been thinking. That said, where are the airbags? And ABS? And isn't this going to be mandatory by 2017. I just don't get it. And it is not that the Thar is going to be exclusively driven off-road.

I received a call from the sales guy from the local Mahindra showroom yesterday.

When I told him I had a mild interest in the Thar, but I was disappointed that the new Thar did not come with airbags and ABS, this was his reply:

"Sir, have you seen the Thar body..you must have from the Internet, no? With such a body, the Thar does not need airbags!"

[AWD]

Originally Posted by johy

where are the airbags?
have airbags and preferably, ABS, as well.

As much as I fight for the presence of safety features on vehicles, here on Thar I would say, yes it needs an ABS for sure. Wait there's a big "but" coming around, so the "but" says, it needs a crash protective body first, crash tested, crash worthy. After giving a basic crash protective vehicles, Airbags would make more sense.

Now the vehicle is a remnant of the past jeeps, so its built like them or atleast made to look like one. Plus the Company is not inclined to spend a lot of money on its development, add to it the customers or the hardcore jeepers(target audience) if I may say are not asking for these features. So the company cannot be bothered the least.

Therefore if the requirement is a "SAFE" ofroader, do good to yourself & look elsewhere. As this vehicle is never gonna become safe, both onroad or off it! So for now we can kind of forget the safety part on this vehicle, its basically to fulfill the needs & requirements of the Jeeping community.

Originally Posted by arvi86

But there is no denying the fact that Mahindra could have done a much better job of integrating a plastic front bumper. This looks crude. And look at that gap between the bumper and front fender extensions .

This vehicle is not meant to compete with the modern day vehicles, its target audience is completely different - those who want to be driving that piece of history. Think of it as a restored Antique WWII jeep, which one doesnt have to take to the nearby mechanic ever so often. Yes the price tag one has to shell for this is way OTT but the company believes they can find consumers making a bee line. So as long as their belief comes true, we can only see an upward movement in the prices.

Btw, these new side plastic claddings on fenders will keep the splashes of mud, water, grime, slush, etc. away from the body.

[johy]

Originally Posted by AWD

Now the vehicle is a remnant of the past jeeps, so its built like them or atleast made to look like one. Plus the Company is not inclined to spend a lot of money on its development, add to it the customers or the hardcore jeepers(target audience) if I may say are not asking for these features. So the company cannot be bothered the least.

I am presuming that the company will only act or simply withdraw the model once the Government imposes the laws.

Further, where I live, close to the mountains, I find a lot of takers for the Thar (me included - in due time ), but I would not call them "Jeepers" (I think we mean off-roaders) for lack of a better term. They use the Thar primarily on metaled roads and primarily because some of these rural roads are quite broken. I think this audience , should be, as important as "Jeepers" from a purely marketing/sales standpoint.

Also, coming to the origin of the vehicle in question, and please someone shed light on it, the Wranger and other Jeeps in the USA, doesn't it also have origins in the World War Jeeps? If so, how come they have moved on to safety features and we have not?

I am sure we are as breakable as the Americans.

[AWD]

Originally Posted by johy

I am presuming that the company will only act or simply withdraw the model once the Government imposes the laws.

Further, where I live, close to the mountains,. I think this audience , should be, as important as "Jeepers" from a purely marketing/sales standpoint.

Wranger and other Jeeps in the USA, doesn't it also have origins in the World War Jeeps? If so, how come they have moved on to safety features and we have not?

I am sure we are as breakable as the Americans.

Sadly thats actually how things move in our great country, only laws or new norms bring about changes. Now whether they have to discontinue the vehicle or improve it, I stand un-affected. Why ? Because I actually do not "need" the vehicle out of necessity. If I were to buy this vehicle, it would be for the reason that its a Jeep, I love Jeeps & would give me a chance to explore of-roading.

Yes the vehicle does fit in for a variety of other roles, some of which I hadn't compiled in my previous post. This vehicle is suitable for your type of usage patterns also. The point I was making was that 90% of this vehicles consumers are not asking for Safety, so the company damn cares to provide.

Comparing our markets & its conditions with U.S markets wont bear anything. That market is highly developed & Laws of the land are different. Also blame it on NO competition what-so-ever with the vehicle that we see high prices & lesser equipment. To top it off, the consumers are not demanding. So the company is least bothered.

I have championed the Safety aspect of these vehicles here on this board extensively. Often encountered with answers like "we drive carefully so cant have an accident, a vehicle is as safe as the nut driving it, etc." Surprisingly these type of replies coming from a Community which is thought to be a step ahead from other not so informed public. So there I learnt that Companies don't budge unless there is a wave like demand.

The best we can do now is make an informed decision, when you know the vehicle is not safe, why risk yourself. Look for other vehicles in the market that offer what you are looking for. As such only Airbags or ABS won't go a long way in making this vehicle "safe". It needs to be designed afresh with crash worthiness in mind. This is what the Company is not inclined to do.

[codelust]

Originally Posted by GTO

What you say about the 2015 Thar is what MM550 owners said about the original 2011 Thar. It never stops with Jeep lovers. Better that Jeepers start accepting change because, if it brings more people to the Jeep experience, that's better.

The funny thing is that so many of the 550s from 2011 have churned through the classifieds section since. While many were predicting that the Thar will flood the classifieds a year into its release, yet it is hard to find used Thars, especially ones that have not been abused. Even the 2011 models cost 6 lakhs+. That is pretty good resale value too.

The serious misogyny aside in some of the posts, what also gets my goat is the condescending attitude that is there towards anyone who uses a Jeep in a non-Jeeper-approved manner. As long as you use the vehicle in a legal manner, that you keep an offroad vehicle mostly on-road or for visiting the mall is the owner's prerogative. It does not make the vehicle die in shame nor does it make the owner a lesser person.

The Thar will always need to be bought by the non-hardcore Jeepers to make it a worthwhile consideration for M&M to keep it going as there are not enough hardcore Jeepers (who are willing to spend more than 5L for a stock vehicle) to build the Thar keeping only the hardcore guys in mind. If you want an estimation of the market, count the vehicles at the more serious hardcore offroad events and multiply that by 10 (just to be on the liberal side). That is the sum total of the market for vehicles for hardcore offroaders. The crossover audience (lifestylers) are a better bet for M&M any day.

Also, we need to keep in mind that even the best of us were not born knowing gear ratios of Jeeps the day we were born. Everyone would have seen a Jeep as a kid/adult/old person that they liked and learned things about it one thing at a time. Just like that person who is buying a Thar today because of its 'macho' looks to drive around town, who might, in the future, turn into the best offroader we will know because of that.

And as far as the 'manly' Jeeping goes, I have a nearly-stock Gypsy which has zero creature comforts. It has done nearly 15,000 KMs in the past few years purely in the mountains and parts of the country where no-roads is often the norm. Let me tell you that it is not fun at all after the first few trips and the Thar is one of the options that is actively under consideration, but the lack of a viable second row, very little luggage space (tents and gear take up a lot of space) and no factory HT keeps me looking in the direction of the Scorpio S4+ 4WD.

[A350XWB]

I was thinking about the source of inspiration for this new interior and realized that it is indeed the Jeep Wrangler. Not necessarily a bad thing. But I would have liked an all black interior, at least as an option.

[tomraven99]

Originally Posted by A350XWB

I was thinking about the source of inspiration for this new interior and realized that it is indeed the Jeep Wrangler. Not necessarily a bad thing. But I would have liked an all black interior, at least as an option.

True.

The new bumper thingy is partly inspired from the Wrangler although it seems out of place.

[911er]

I for one really like what they've done with the interiors. It never hurt anyone to drive a slightly more comfortable car, or even a nicer one. The important question is whether the new dash can go into older Thars. Even if it's a little expensive, I would still consider this upgrade.

An existing owner will understand the annoyance of needing a visiting card handy every time to maneuver the airflow towards the driver. This is so much better.

[ACM]

I really liked the location of two din slot provided. Being rights at the top it would be relatively safe from water. Plus visibility would be good for a setup with Satnav. They should make the Scorpio unit available for those interested though I guess aftermarket ones would be better.

At a certain point in the quest for comfort and safety the Scorpio S4 with 4x4 does come into contention I guess.