[Thampu]

Anybody has any insights on whether the recall will include Skoda cars as well?

[volkman10]

Originally Posted by Thampu

Anybody has any insights on whether the recall will include Skoda cars as well?

Yes it will affect all sub brands of VW

[aniketi]

VW is recalling cars, that's ok, they have to do this. It's their responsibility to rectify the faulty cars. They have cheated the norms and its a crime for sure. They may get penalized heavily also, rightly so.

But if someone who is owner of one of the faulty cars VW has supplied, what about him? He is also part of the crime without knowing. Just that he or she has trusted the VW as a brand and bought the expensive and so called great car, unknowingly he or she has become part of the wrong thing. Someone who has done thousands of kms running by his car has become responsible for lot of pollution done, unknowingly. As a responsible citizen I personally will not like this at all and I am sure other members of this forum will also agree with me on this.

So in this case if my car is also involved, can I expect some amount to be paid to me as well as company has cheated me? Can I expect some compensation for the cheating? Because of their fault I am responsible for polluting in my own country, which i Love the most, that to without my knowledge. Can I file case against them in this case? (These are my friend's thoughts who is owner of VW Vento TDI and was very proud of his car till the scandal was out. Now he is feeling really bad that he has bought such a car which is polluting like hell and responsible for increasing the pollution in the country. He is seriously thinking of selling his car.)

[amitpunjani]

Originally Posted by aniketi

VW is recalling cars, that's ok, they have to do this. It's their responsibility to rectify the faulty cars. They have cheated the norms and its a crime for sure. They may get penalized heavily also, rightly so.

But if someone who is owner of one of the faulty cars VW has supplied, what about him? He is also part of the crime without knowing. Just that he or she has trusted the VW as a brand and bought the expensive and so called great car, unknowingly he or she has become part of the wrong thing. Someone who has done thousands of kms running by his car has become responsible for lot of pollution done, unknowingly. As a responsible citizen I personally will not like this at all and I am sure other members of this forum will also agree with me on this.

So in this case if my car is also involved, can I expect some amount to be paid to me as well as company has cheated me? Can I expect some compensation for the cheating? Because of their fault I am responsible for polluting in my own country, which i Love the most, that to without my knowledge. Can I file case against them in this case? (These are my friend's thoughts who is owner of VW Vento TDI and was very proud of his car till the scandal was out. Now he is feeling really bad that he has bought such a car which is polluting like hell and responsible for increasing the pollution in the country. He is seriously thinking of selling his car.)

To give VW a compensation to you, is a far fetched dream, we all know about VW dealerships or VW company in India operates.

Good, your friend cares so much about the environment, but he is being too sentimental about selling the such a beautiful piece of machinery. Perhaps, you can ask your friend, how many times he has planted new trees, or how many times he has made use bicycle or public transport to office or does he has solar panels installed at his roof top or does he use paper bags. In fact in the first place, Why he bought the diesel vehicle. If the answer is "no" perhaps adhering few of things might remove his guilt.

We all are part of the polluting the mother nature.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by aniketi

Someone who has done thousands of kms running by his car has become responsible for lot of pollution done, unknowingly. As a responsible citizen I personally will not like this at all and I am sure other members of this forum will also agree with me on this.

Kudos to your friend. Quite a noble thought putting the environment and responsibilities above his personal gain.

Unfortunately, the discussion in many of the above posts in this thread revolves around how to cheat their way out of this recall by not taking the cars to the authorized service centers etc, due to the higher fun to drive quotient of the engines in the polluting cheat mode tune.

I feel quite bad myself since we have a GT TDi in the extended family with my cousin. The car was bought under my recommendation - the sole reason being that diesel engine with 105hp. This negated almost all their glaring negatives like atrocious service and parts costs and concerns on resale and reliability. Yes, it would be taken for the recall process once VW gives clear details on it. If it loses the FTD nature, I'm afraid the negatives will outweigh the positives, by a fair margin.

Completely lost faith in VW since this was pure cheating and not a mistake. I would really hesitate to recommend their cars again.

[aniketi]

Originally Posted by amitpunjani

To give VW a compensation to you, is a far fetched dream, we all know about VW dealerships or VW company in India operates.

Good, your friend cares so much about the environment, but he is being too sentimental about selling the such a beautiful piece of machinery. Perhaps, you can ask your friend, how many times he has planted new trees, or how many times he has made use bicycle or public transport to office or does he has solar panels installed at his roof top or does he use paper bags. In fact in the first place, Why he bought the diesel vehicle. If the answer is "no" perhaps adhering few of things might remove his guilt.

We all are part of the polluting the mother nature.

Sorry but you are mixing two different things here. If it is beautiful piece of machinery then it should not be doing lots of pollution at the first place. Right? Here we are talking about cheating, they have cheated the government norms and the customers who has trusted them. I know we all are polluting nature but it is our duty to see how we can reduce it, right? We have to make sure that we should make special efforts to reduce pollution and not vice versa by using such vehicles after knowing also that they are making lots of pollution we buy them & use them.

[ACM]

Another way to look at it. (Why not go for the recall)

Sadly I would NOT have gone for this recall remap (if my vehicle (now sold) had been recalled) as that would reduce power in the vehicle. I don't believe that is unethical as when I had bought the Laura it was after test driving it and if the power was going to drop then it is not fair to the customer. The Govt. should have done a better job of testing before the vehicle is sold, and what about all the road side PUC certificates- All Fake?.

If I were to be in a different mood and felt that the above was not good for the environment then I would if going for the recall also sue VW/Skoda in a Consumer Court or make them give me an added benefit for agreeing to live with a vehicle with lesser power.

This reminds me of the Triumph Bikes incident from last year in so many ways. (And the compensation that the customers received on account of the deception of by the company.) And yes Triumph lives on in India..

There is another view point. We do remap our vehicles, go in for wider tyres, or change the air filter or exhaust systems for more power. All these without fail also imply higher pollution, we have so many threads about these mods on TBHP - Should we ban those threads? - Not really a question, just a reasoning why a certain flexibility is permissible.
OR
A vehicle with say a 1.5Ltr engine vs one with 2.0Lts engine vs one with 2.5Ltrs engine will be polluting in the order of 1.5<2<2.5. So someone going in for higher power is always polluting more, also someone with a heavy foot is also always polluting more. Yep they are also paying more for fuel by the way. We rave about all the big V8's that supposedly pass emission standards but why do the standards simply not mandate NO engine bigger than 2.0Ltrs for say a SUV and no engine bigger than say 1.5L for a Sedan? Is that not a real way to reduce pollution, Even better - NO using a car for going to office is travelling alone, or possibly pay triple toll at the toll both if travelling alone in ones car?
OR
A home AC from 10 yrs back vs a new 4/5 stars one from today consumes more electricity. Hence a bigger electricity bill but also more coal being burnt to generate this electricity. Wonder why the Govt. also does not start banning 15 years plus old AC's. The earlier AC's are like the equivalents of BSII vs todays BSIV standard as they did not have what we call the power saving invertor technology.
OR
Think about this why does the Govt mandate that the Home AC's and other home equipment's should have star ratings to show efficient they are why does the govt instead not insist on a minimum efficiency level below which one just cannot sell. A vehicle pollutes in a visible way in the form of fumes on the road, the Home AC pollutes at the Electricity generation plant - actually no difference where mostly Coal is used as the fuel in India.

Coming back to the point - Hence would not be too concerned about a recall which would reduce emissions at the cost of power if possible without reducing power sure no problem then.

That said I would not buy a vehicle that breaks norms and pollutes, but after buying no going back either. This might be politically and socially an incorrect stand but is how I look at it.

[Amartya]

Originally Posted by ACM

The Govt. should have done a better job of testing before the vehicle is sold, and what about all the road side PUC certificates- All Fake?.

Without diluting your point about fake PUC certificates -- which I agree with you are a pretty big deal -- I have to respectfully disagree about the government's role in this fiasco. While it is indeed possible for a government agency to improve its tests, this was a case of malicious deception. VW fundamentally toyed with the law and almost got away with it. Even the U.S. that has tougher emission norms, took quite a few years to catch on to the fact that VW was cheating. It was a mix of good fortune and dogged scientists that blew the lid off of this issue.

Originally Posted by ACM

If I were to be in a different mood and felt that the above was not good for the environment then I would if going for the recall also sue VW/Skoda in a Consumer Court or make them give me an added benefit for agreeing to live with a vehicle with lesser power.

Not only is it bad for the environment, it is directly affecting the quality of life for people ... especially those already suffering from respiratory ailments. To be slightly controversial, if I were to draw an analogy between someone smoking in public and someone driving a VW while knowing that the emissions from his/her car was doing damage, I would love to know which side you would take.

Originally Posted by ACM

There is another view point. We do remap our vehicles, go in for wider tyres, or change the air filter or exhaust systems for more power. All these without fail also imply higher pollution, we have so many threads about these mods on TBHP - Should we ban those threads? - Not really a question, just a reasoning why a certain flexibility is permissible.

This example does not hold water. Tuning or modifying a car is an individual's decision and there are some people who do this somewhat conscientiously. For example, for every 10K Swift's sold, there's probably one that is retuned (just making this up, the point is about the ratio). When there's a manufacturer level issue that affects the collective population, the measures need to be stronger. In this case, I believe the government has a role to play to both ensure that the owners get the cars fixed, as well as ensuring that VW makes the customer whole in terms of lost performance or loss in resale value (or both).

Originally Posted by ACM

A vehicle with say a 1.5Ltr engine vs one with 2.0Lts engine vs one with 2.5Ltrs engine will be polluting in the order of 1.5<2<2.5.
...
A vehicle pollutes in a visible way in the form of fumes on the road, the Home AC pollutes at the Electricity generation plant - actually no difference where mostly Coal is used as the fuel in India.

I am sorry, but conflating these points with the emissions issue of a VW is trying to draw a false equivalence. Of course there are many ways to solve or reduce pollution. But just because we haven't made a change to one policy, or changed our electricity infrastructure, does not imply that we should not try to fix the issues with VWs failing to meet emission targets.

Originally Posted by ACM

That said I would not buy a vehicle that breaks norms and pollutes, but after buying no going back either. This might be politically and socially an incorrect stand but is how I look at it.

I would await your clarifications on what you mean by "not going back", but for now, I am assuming that you mean that you would not allow a modification to the car that improves emissions at the cost of power delivery. Humour me for a second and consider the hypothetical scenario that you and your family are stuck on a busy street in the evening where there are a dozen or so VWs idling. Would you rather know that under some sort of regulation (from the government?) all the cars have to have been fixed to comply with emission norms, or would you be happy to have all the dozen or so vehicle owners choosing to 'not go back'? I realize that you clearly stated that "this is how I look at it", and the scenario I painted is quite contrived, but I am trying to understand how strongly you hold the opinion you stated.

[ACM]

Originally Posted by Amartya

Without diluting your point about fake PUC certificates -- which I agree with you are a pretty big deal -- I have to respectfully disagree about the government's role in this fiasco. While it is indeed possible for a government agency to improve its tests, this was a case of malicious deception.
Not only is it bad for the environment, it is directly affecting the quality of life for people ... especially those already suffering from respiratory ailments. To be slightly controversial, if I were to draw an analogy between someone smoking in public and someone driving a VW while knowing that the emissions from his/her car was doing damage, I would love to know which side you would take.
This example does not hold water. Tuning or modifying a car is an individual's decision and there are some people who do this somewhat conscientiously. In this case, I believe the government has a role to play to both ensure that the owners get the cars fixed, as well as ensuring that VW makes the customer whole in terms of lost performance or loss in resale value (or both).
I am sorry, but conflating these points with the emissions issue of a VW is trying to draw a false equivalence. Of course there are many ways to solve or reduce pollution.
I would await your clarifications on what you mean by "not going back", but for now, I am assuming that you mean that you would not allow a modification to the car that improves emissions at the cost of power delivery. Humour me for a second and consider the hypothetical scenario that you and your family are stuck on a busy street in the evening where there are a dozen or so VWs idling. Would you rather know that under some sort of regulation (from the government?) all the cars have to have been fixed to comply with emission norms, or would you be happy to have all the dozen or so vehicle owners choosing to 'not go back'? I realize that you clearly stated that "this is how I look at it", and the scenario I painted is quite contrived, but I am trying to understand how strongly you hold the opinion you stated.

1) Nope I am not convinced to change my point of view basis the points shared by you.
2) But if we just keep going to and fro then we are trying to win an argument or force ones beliefs on the other. Since am actually requested for a response in this case will revert back one last time, but have already early stated my overall unchanged view.

Just to restate my take:
I used the Laura 1.9PD 105 bhp not the 140 bhp and loved it, and did consider remaping it but ended up selling it before that happened. I don't know if it was a vehicle which breached the norms or not. But I loved the power and would not have bought the vehicle if it did not have adequate power. So my simple take is 1) Either VW / Skoda should financially compensate me if they drop power (Possibly a 100% refund at Market value plus 25%) or 2) I continue using it as it is. VW / Skoda cars in India are a drop in the ocean, they don't sell well and are actually a lot like the point you made of the number of remapped or modified vehicles being a very small number. The same is true for VW. That said I don't believe the vehicles are significantly causing much more harm to the environment compared to many other avenues that do so much more harm.

I do coincidentally have respiratory issues and can't bear pollution as much as the average person yet..

And yes if I had a lot of smokers around me smoking in a non smoking area I would make them stop (Verbally or Legally - though I would be tempted to do it physically). Been in that situation and have taken the required steps. Being surrounded in traffic by polluting VW's - Won't happen in India

Yep when I mentioned not going back I implied not getting power reduced to improve emissions. Towards the end even the available power was not sufficient for my liking and hence the thought of remapping. There would be no point in getting a revised map from the company and then chucking out while remapping. VW Diesel vehicles somehow are the ones with the most remapping options globally and these options should also be banned in India.

[sukarsan]

Originally Posted by VW2010

In india emission certificates are jokes. The road side emission check may not even have equipments to confirm particulates at the level these EPA test have produced.

I am late to this thread. I agree with all your other statements, but what you have stated is not emission testing. The Indian pollution norms(Bharat Stage) follow the EU norms with a time delay. Its the responsibility of the manufacturer to clear the tests before a vehicle is launched. Every single vehicle model produced in India have to be submitted to authorities yearly to check for emissions.

For more info, you can read about the infamous GM scandal which happened 2 years ago .

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

US estimates the below environmental and human damage thanks to VW actions. This of course is preliminary and the numbers will go up as even more engines are getting added to the list.

Over the sales period (2008–2015), the excess emissions will cause 59 early deaths in the US.

Health effects include ~31 cases of chronic bronchitis, ~34 hospital admissions, ~120 000 minor restricted activity days, ~210 000 lower respiratory symptom days, and ~33 000 days of increased bronchodilator usage.

I doubt such a study would be conducted in India though. Mostly government wouldn't be bothered about the details, except for the fact that VW willingly cheated on such a large scale.

[Amartya]

Originally Posted by ACM

1) Nope I am not convinced to change my point of view basis the points shared by you.
2) But if we just keep going to and fro then we are trying to win an argument or force ones beliefs on the other.

I appreciate your taking the time to play nice with the hypothetical scenarios I conjured up. I was not hoping to convince you to change your mind, nor force my opinion on you, but rather get a more nuanced/detailed take on your position on the matter. It is of interest to me because it helps me --and hopefully more people in our community-- to understand how VW owners are likely to react to the changes (if/when they happen).

Completely unrelated: VW today came forward with another bit of data about some of their cars having higher CO2 emissions than specified. Some 800K cars are supposed to be affected in Europe: Source

[CarJunki]

The article linked above also mentions Porsche there for flouting emission norms.
Cheating with Law seems to be in the DNA of VW and subsidiaries.

I am really thankful to Maruti Suzuki for standing up to VW pressure to take their diesel engine.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Indian government finally decided to issue a showcause notice to Volkswagen, as ARAI confirms the presence of cheat software on the Indian cars too.

http://indianexpress.com/article/ind...ission-levels/

Additional Secretary in the Heavy Industries Ministry Ambuj Sharma told PTI that the notice will be issued on Wednesday. This, after the Automotive Research Association of India found that three on-road models had showed a variation in their emission levels when compared to the data provided by the company during laboratory tests.

The three on-road models are Jetta, Audi A4 and Vento.

- See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/ind....tIj58Dvl.dpuf

Meanwhile, globally their petrol engine range has come under fire as well. Not sure if these are being tested by ARAI. Surprisingly - the cars are still on sale in India, while being voluntarily discontinued (till solution provided) in some of the international markets.

[man_and_machine]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

IARAI confirms the presence of cheat software on the Indian cars too.

From my dealer got the info that the Vento and the Jetta that will be delivered from now on (did not get a specific date) have the cheat code removed/replaced. Not sure if I can rely on this info. Globally there is not news of the solution, how that a solution be made available in India only? If the cheat code is removed then the power and the milage drop has been reported between 20 and 30%. That is a big difference, like from 102 it could mean 80 bhp!, similarly for milage. Then they need to get they corrected models retested and they need to change their product spec. I am sure no one will be interested in a Vento @ 80 Bhp and 15 kmpl. So this corrected at factory theory I guess is not correct.

What I think might have happened, is since we are on BS IV the cheat software might be tweaked with the cheat being the norm, meaning the car does not need to cheat when emission tested as the norms can be met without it. That is bad too.

I will re-check with the dealer again, if there are any further updates.