[Rahul Rao]

Talking of Diesel lobby and Petrol lobby is silly, the price differential was created ages ago by the then governments, and changes in them are not easy. When I bought my first car Diesel was Rs 9.00 and Petrol was Rs 17.00 which is almost double, today Diesel is just above Rs 50 and Petrol just above Rs 60 a far reduced markup of barely 20%.
The price difference in fuel just doesn't attract people to diesel, what does is longitivity of the engines, and fuel effeciency. I currently own two Petrol cars and one Diesel car, and I know that driving the diesel in a docile manner on the highway can push fuel effeciency up to 23, and drive as I please doesn't push it below 20. A similarly sized and weighed Petrol touches 13-14 on a docile drive, but is barely 10-11 when driven spiritedly.
Today diesel is priced at twice what it should be while Petrol is priced at 2.5 times what it should be. When the govt is getting so much money let them spend some on their refineries, and improve diesel quality to ultra low sulfer diesel. Tell car manufacturers to switch over to Euro VI norms within next 18 months, far before the stipulated April 1, 2019, and lastly price both petrol and diesel the same.
They can even increase fuel price further and use the gain to remove the jam causing toll booths, in the end costlier fuel instead of toll means the same, the user pays.

Rahul

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by RSR

The very influential (& notorious) diesel lobby is perpetrating a giant fraud on the citizens of this country hand-in-hand with the powers-that-be. This kind of notoriety is crystal clear to anyone who keeps a tab on the prices of petrol & diesel after both fuels were supposedly "de-regulated".

You don't require a lobby to keep diesel priced low compared with petrol.
What you require is a democracy (where voter are a part of herd), and if you can mislead the herd you get elected once again.

Though I am not doubting the possibility of a strong lobby, which compels the diesel to be sold at lower prices, which in turn allows the manufacturers to price their vehicles higher than petrol version. (Because the public will be inclined to buy a diesel vehicle). But the forces of competition among the manufacturers will wipe most of such gains away pretty fast.

Perhaps the biggest lobby is not the manufacturers of diesel vehicle but the hordes belonging to one or another political party hungry for public votes?

[RSR]

Originally Posted by RSR

Shocked and completely taken aback as the vile diesel lobby is right now, expect them to show their true colours very soon. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the fake, artificial difference between the prices of petrol & diesel goes up again sharply.

Oh, hoh! As if on cue, here comes the news that the vile oil mafia has increased the price of the already expensive petrol by Rs. 2.19 a litre but raised the price of the cheaper dirty fuel by only Rs. 0.98 a litre. So the detestable price differential goes up again. I just predicted this, didn't I???

The vile oil mafia must have done this despicable deed on the instructions of the vicious diesel lobby, no doubt! There is a nasty, devious, underhand connection between the vile oil mafia and the vicious diesel lobby, and the two are best chums when it comes to their toxic game of promoting the dirty fuel deliberately at the expense of petrol, CNG and Auto LPG.

Where the hell is the logic in this skewed price hike that widens the fake price differential between the prices of petrol & diesel???

Where have all those honourable members advocating logic to the Hon'ble SC gone now? Why are they completely silent now, in the face of such a blatant, detestable & highly illogical deed by the vile oil mafia under the influence of the vicious diesel lobby? The silence on the part of the honourable advocates of logic has become creepy & ghostly, as it always has been when it comes to the question of the fake, illogical, deliberate & detestable price differential!

What's more amusing than the pin-drop silence of the honourable advocates of logic is the hilarious & preposterous denial by some of the very existence of the vicious diesel lobby. As amusing & laughable as this is, it isn't completely unexpected either, as the vicious diesel lobby is called a lobby not without reason.

As with any hardcore lobby indulging in blatant underhand methods to subvert logic, free market principles & justice, the vicious diesel lobby is known to have a well organised army of lobbyists at different levels. It's only their core team of first class lobbyists who have perfected the art of getting the vile oil mafia to literally dance to their tunes. There are also a few other classes of lobbyists (both paid & unpaid) who are known to look after the interests of the diesel lobby by various methods.

Originally Posted by alpha1

You don't require a lobby to keep diesel priced low compared with petrol.
What you require is a democracy (where voter are a part of herd), and if you can mislead the herd you get elected once again.

Though I am not doubting the possibility of a strong lobby, which compels the diesel to be sold at lower prices, which in turn allows the manufacturers to price their vehicles higher than petrol version. (Because the public will be inclined to buy a diesel vehicle). But the forces of competition among the manufacturers will wipe most of such gains away pretty fast.

The thing is, when the economy worked on the shabby, failed principles of the nasty license raj era, the political hordes kept fooling the masses about diesel being the public, poor man's fuel and petrol being the private, rich man's fuel. Of course, that was and is a blatant lie, but the clueless masses fell prey to it.

Now, the license raj era has been replaced by the lobby raj era. Crony capitalism happens to be the order of the day, as it is in other highly corrupt Third World countries.

The diesel lobby shamelessly continues with the blatant lie about petrolling being the rich man's fuel, but the masses have become wiser by a certain degree.

Walk into any fuel outlet today, and observe which fuel the poor people are buying and which fuel is being bought by the rich(er) ones. Even someone with an IQ just above that of a cockroach would be able to identify which is the rich man's fuel and which is the poor man's fuel.

[alpha1]

Originally Posted by RSR

Walk into any fuel outlet today, and observe which fuel the poor people are buying and which fuel is being bought by the rich(er) ones. Even someone with an IQ just above that of a cockroach would be able to identify which is the rich man's fuel and which is the poor man's fuel.

What about Diesel locomotives, Buses and Trucks?
Not every public transport is on CNG.

[sourabhzen]

Originally Posted by RSR

Of course, this comment must have been meant for me, as I believe I'm the only member to post a contrarian view on the SC move.

From deep inside, I mostly agree with your views. My intense desire to own a Storme keeps me away from commenting in favour. It is selfishness, I agree, but I can not help it. The desire may die down with time.

Originally Posted by mayjay

If anything, to make the maximum impact on pollution, the supreme court should have gone after cars with <2000 cc engines. Thoughts?

Someone must be thinking in those lines and planning to put a petition in SC.

Originally Posted by alpha1

What about Diesel locomotives, Buses and Trucks?
Not every public transport is on CNG.

In Delhi, most of the public transport runs on CNG. Diesel cabs by Uber and Ola etc. just got another month's extension.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by RSR

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Where the hell is the logic in this skewed price hike that widens the fake price differential between the prices of petrol & diesel??? .
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I do not see how any of this is relevant to this . The question is the reason for ban. If its to reduce emissions, why not make an emissions based ban.
Where does CC come into this. What magic does a 1999cc engine does which a 2001cc engine does not. If a 1.3L diesel engine car is proven to emit more particulate matter than any one of the cars which were banned, will the court go ahead and ban all the cars with said 1.3L engine?

As for price differential, taxes on diesel are kept low to keep inflation in check. No govt wants to be held responsible for spiraling prices which can lose elections. You have the understand that the purpose of any govt is to stay in power, and any decision which goes against that is not going to be taken.

[RSR]

Originally Posted by tsk1979

I do not see how any of this is relevant to this.

First, tsk1979ji, I'm glad you agree with me (even if indirectly & reluctantly) that there is no logic to this blatantly skewed price hike for the two automobile fuels.

It is highly relevant to the ban, and I'll explain why later in this comment.

The question is the reason for ban.

While I'm not generally in favour if banning anything, this ban by the Hon'ble SC is one of the least unpalatable ones. It must be understood that this ban is not a standalone one, but one of many measures to clean up the filthy air in Delhi, or at least make it more breathable. Delhiites must consider themselves lucky that the SC is taking an active interest in this matter, if not for themselves, then at least for their future generations.

If its to reduce emissions, why not make an emissions based ban.

It's true that an emission based ban would be more accurate and a cubic capacity based ban is only approximate, but it's still better than nothing. Who can the SC trust to come up with an accurate emissions based criteria? And who will guarantee that dirty methods (such as cheat devices) will not be used by the diesel lobby to wiggle out? The ARAI? Hahaha! Look at their mighty flip-flops and U-turns and what not on the Volkswagen emissions issue. In the absence of such a reliable methodology, the SC has gone by a cc based ban. There is nothing wrong in this, as it is an approximate one.

Where does CC come into this. What magic does a 1999cc engine does which a 2001cc engine does not.

It's exactly the same magic used by the executive & bureaucracy to decide the excise slabs, isn't it?

What magic does a 3999mm long car achieve over a 4001mm one in terms of congestion? What magic does a 1199cc petrol engine have over a 1201cc one that the tax slabs for the two are different?

The Hon'ble SC is only applying the very same yardsticks created by the executive & bureaucracy.

What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander! What is logic for the executive & bureaucracy is logic for the judiciary as well, tsk1979ji.

If a 1.3L diesel engine car is proven to emit more particulate matter than any one of the cars which were banned, will the court go ahead and ban all the cars with said 1.3L engine?

The method used by the SC is also used by the executive & bureaucracy and is an approximation. It may not be perfectly accurate, but a reasonable approximation nevertheless. Are 2000cc+ diesel engines more fuel efficient than equivalent (same technology) 1248cc diesel ones? No, of course not! If they burn more fuel per kilometre, would they not also emit more crap per km? The cc based ban is not entirely without logic, after all!

As for price differential, taxes on diesel are kept low to keep inflation in check.

Taxes do not explain the entire price differential, but only a part. The other part is the cold-blooded extortion racket that is perpetrated on hapless petrol users by the oil mafia under the dirty influence of the diesel lobby. This has been exposed to the core on the fuel price discussion thread.

No govt wants to be held responsible for spiraling prices which can lose elections. You have the understand that the purpose of any govt is to stay in power, and any decision which goes against that is not going to be taken.

Inflation? How is it that civilised First World countries are able to keep inflation well under control despite diesel costing a bit more than petrol in most such countries? And why is a Third World country that often uses banana republic economics NOT able to contain inflation, despite diesel costing much, much less than petrol?

There is absolutely no link whatsoever between inflation and maintaining a disgusting price gap between petrol & diesel! This is the sheer propaganda of the diesel lobby, one that would fall flat on its face when confronted with economics & reality.

Besides, if governments use sheer illogical voodoo economics and crappy populism to skew the economy & environment and ultimately screw them completely, is it not the duty of the judiciary to step in to prevent such nonsense? If this kind of illogical, voodoo economic deeds are what governments have to do to stay in power, then is it not the duty of the judiciary to step in, prevent it and stop the country from becoming a failed banana republic with a highly toxic, carcinogenic environment?

I remember how you were absolutely furious & incensed with the heinous, barbaric, sub-human, violent attack on self-driven cars by the goons of the vile taxi mafia in Ladakh, tsk1979ji. And to rub salt into your wounds, the district administration of Ladakh seemed to take the side of the taxi mafia or at least treated them with kid gloves despite their filthy act of violence.

Now, how would you feel if the J&K government decided "to do what it takes to stay in power" by protecting the livelihood of local J&K residents? How would you feel if the J&K government massively taxes self-driven rental cars when they enter J&K, in order to protect the livelihood of local taxi drivers, guides etc. and get their votes in order to stay in power?

Of course, you would cry foul, and immediately look to the J&K High Court or the Supreme Court of India to put an end to such nonsense and deliver justice, as would anyone else!

How is that hypothetical deed of the J&K government any different from this real deed by the government of India & the oil mafia under its control? Both are the same rubbish to get votes & stay in power, right? So why shouldn't the SC step in now to prevent such rubbish by the GoI and its oil mafia, if you or me or anyone else would expect either the SC or the J&K HC to prevent such a hypothetical rubbish by the J&K government?

[RSR]

@ All existing/potential diesel car owners/users,

Please don't think I'm spewing venom against you personally or indirectly, or even against your cars. I have nothing against diesel cars, and I've previously owned one diesel car myself and used another diesel car for long periods of time.

I may have been highly critical of diesel emissions and the devious, underhand methods the diesel lobby uses to ensure governments don't crack down on toxic diesel emissions.

However, the majority of my anger is directed against the completely unjust, blatantly unfair, skewed, favouritist, illogical, anti-factual, deliberate, malevolent, uncouth and criminally extortionist price differential between petrol and diesel, more so after both fuels supposedly became "de-regulated".

After the supposed "de-regulation" of both fuels, I was (perhaps naïvely) expecting the prices of petrol & diesel in India to reflect those in advanced economies, where they are more or less equal, give or take a few cents/pence (with petrol usually being slightly cheaper).

Even in a failing country like India's north-western neighbour, petrol is cheaper than diesel by ~ 8 PKR. I don't know if they tax diesel more than petrol there, but I'm not expecting this either.

All I want is a fair, free market pricing of both fuels, which was what was promised after the supposed "de-regulation". In fact, I don't even expect that (though I'll be very happy if that happens). All I want is the price difference between petrol & diesel to reflect reality, and not this skewed, extortionist nonsense against petrol users under the influence of the shady diesel lobby. It's bad enough that both the central government & all state governments (don't know about Goa now) charge higher taxes on petrol, but it's much worse that the oil mafia runs an additional extortion racket against petrol users under the shady, dirty influence of the diesel lobby.

It's this sense of hurt, this sense of being deliberately wronged, this sense of being cheated, this sense of being unfairly targeted for extortion, this sense of being taken for a ride by lobbies, mafias, cartels & crony capitalists that makes me rant against the diesel lobby, the oil mafia and other elements who perpetrate this heinous injustice.

You may not be aware of it, but I'm certainly not alone in this. Many knowledgeable people, petrol heads, bikers, even poor people who use two-wheelers & mopeds for their living (like tea-sellers) etc. are completely aware of this injustice and are seething with justifiable anger & pent-up rage against the shady forces behind the scenes that perpetrate this blatant extortion racket, even after the two fuels were completely "de-regulated".

It's only human to want a just system that doesn't perpetrate heinous atrocities against one & one's interests. It's also only human to ardently desire that those who deliberately hurt one and perpetratre injustices against one should suffer miserably for their actions. That explains my deep desire to see the both the diesel lobby and their close chums in the oil mafia suffer for the deliberate miseries the two heap upon hapless petrol users. Petrol users never behave like goons & thugs, never go on violent rampages destroying public & private property after declaring a strike. So certain elements believe that petrol users are fair targets for never-ending extortion.

As long as these elements perpetrate such vicious injustices and commit extortionist atrocities against petrol users, those elements will continue to face petrol users' righteous anger, ire and wrath. And I'm completely unapologetic about wanting to see the vicious diesel lobby and vile oil mafia suffer for their detestable actions!

The dangerous extortion & injustice perpetrating elements thoroughly deserve to reap what they have sown and continue to sow! They thoroughly deserve whatever setbacks the hon'ble judiciary hands them, as long as they indulge in such shady practices to promote the dirty fuel at the deliberate expense of petrol, CNG & Auto LPG.

[Ricky_63]

Originally Posted by Dry Ice

I believe the order does not restrict vehicles registered elsewhere from entering Delhi based on its engine size. The cab operators can register the Innovas, Boleros, Xylos in HR,PB,UP,UK,RJ and use them in Delhi.

As per my understanding, Delhi will NOT permit ANY diesel cabs is what the order is. It was to be implemented on 01/04/206, but the SC gave an extension of a month.




OFF TOPIC - but relevant

I do hope the SC would also consider taking into account diesel generators !! They are the cause for a lot of pollution in DELHI NCR. If the government cannot produce or provide electricity, businesses & residential complexes rely on massive diesel generators for round the clock power. Me thinks - because the onus of providing power is on the government, this major source of pollution has been overlooked

[VSD]

Originally Posted by Ricky_63

I do hope the SC would also consider taking into account diesel generators !! They are the cause for a lot of pollution in DELHI NCR. If the government cannot produce or provide electricity, businesses & residential complexes rely on massive diesel generators for round the clock power. Me thinks - because the onus of providing power is on the government, this major source of pollution has been overlooked

You may be right about generators being part of pollution spread across NCR, though work will be seriously affected if these are banned, unless the government can guarantee 24/7 power supply and bear the losses incurred if and when there is any shortage/power cut etc.
I don't see this happening though.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by RSR

@ All existing/potential diesel car owners/users,

Please don't think I'm spewing venom against you personally or indirectly, or even against your cars. I have nothing against diesel cars, and I've previously owned one diesel car myself and used another diesel car for long periods of time.

I may have been highly critical of diesel emissions and the devious, underhand methods the diesel lobby uses to ensure governments don't crack down on toxic diesel emissions.

However, the majority of my anger is directed against the completely unjust, blatantly unfair, skewed, favouritist, illogical, anti-factual, deliberate, malevolent, uncouth and criminally extortionist price differential between petrol and diesel, more so after both fuels supposedly became "de-regulated".

Okay, there is no diesel lobby. There is no conspiracy. There is nobody secretly running the show like Illuminati or some sinister organization. It is simple economics. Diesel is the fuel of transport and agriculture. No govt wants to be responsible for inflation. In many western countries, farmers can buy tax free diesel which is laced with a dye. In India, with corruption systems and all, you have one cheap diesel price. And this is not due to subsidies. Any state govt or central govt wants revenue from fuel sales as this is a big cash cow. However, since they do not want to spike inflation and lose votes, they go for extra tax on petrol.

After the supposed "de-regulation" of both fuels, I was (perhaps naïvely) expecting the prices of petrol & diesel in India to reflect those in advanced economies, where they are more or less equal, give or take a few cents/pence (with petrol usually being slightly cheaper).

Even in a failing country like India's north-western neighbour, petrol is cheaper than diesel by ~ 8 PKR. I don't know if they tax diesel more than petrol there, but I'm not expecting this either.

All I want is a fair, free market pricing of both fuels, which was what was promised after the supposed "de-regulation". In fact, I don't even expect that (though I'll be very happy if that happens). All I want is the price difference between petrol & diesel to reflect reality, and not this skewed, extortionist nonsense against petrol users under the influence of the shady diesel lobby. It's bad enough that both the central government & all state governments (don't know about Goa now) charge higher taxes on petrol, but it's much worse that the oil mafia runs an additional extortion racket against petrol users under the shady, dirty influence of the diesel lobby.

No diesel lobby here. Its just politicians not wanting to lose elections. If plutonium ran our transport sector, they would make that cheap.

It's this sense of hurt, this sense of being deliberately wronged, this sense of being cheated, this sense of being unfairly targeted for extortion, this sense of being taken for a ride by lobbies, mafias, cartels & crony capitalists that makes me rant against the diesel lobby, the oil mafia and other elements who perpetrate this heinous injustice.

Trust me, this diesel robbing is a very small percentage of how you get robbed. There are other things in this country which rob you far more

You may not be aware of it, but I'm certainly not alone in this. Many knowledgeable people, petrol heads, bikers, even poor people who use two-wheelers & mopeds for their living (like tea-sellers) etc. are completely aware of this injustice and are seething with justifiable anger & pent-up rage against the shady forces behind the scenes that perpetrate this blatant extortion racket, even after the two fuels were completely "de-regulated".

It does not matter. Unless trucks start running on petrol nobody will touch diesel.

It's only human to want a just system that doesn't perpetrate heinous atrocities against one & one's interests. It's also only human to ardently desire that those who deliberately hurt one and perpetratre injustices against one should suffer miserably for their actions. That explains my deep desire to see the both the diesel lobby and their close chums in the oil mafia suffer for the deliberate miseries the two heap upon hapless petrol users. Petrol users never behave like goons & thugs, never go on violent rampages destroying public & private property after declaring a strike. So certain elements believe that petrol users are fair targets for never-ending extortion.

If un-controlled price rise happens, trust me, even petrol biker users will go on rampage.

As long as these elements perpetrate such vicious injustices and commit extortionist atrocities against petrol users, those elements will continue to face petrol users' righteous anger, ire and wrath. And I'm completely unapologetic about wanting to see the vicious diesel lobby and vile oil mafia suffer for their detestable actions!

Those with power do not suffer.

The dangerous extortion & injustice perpetrating elements thoroughly deserve to reap what they have sown and continue to sow! They thoroughly deserve whatever setbacks the hon'ble judiciary hands them, as long as they indulge in such shady practices to promote the dirty fuel at the deliberate expense of petrol, CNG & Auto LPG.

Well nobody stops the govt from building a nationwide CNG network. I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

[Aroy]

I think that we are getting carried away with "Diesel Lobby" rhetoric. Diesel is the fuel of choice for larger vehicles, all over the world. The reason is simple - higher fuel efficiency which results in better FE and higher torque compared to petrol. The only sector using petrol for trucks is where the temperatures are below -40 centigrade. Diesel refuses to flow easily at those temperatures hence petrol, at a substantial cost to FE.

Those who have access to cheap petrol can afford petrol SUV and large vehicles, but in our economy a petrol SUV or a petrol truck would just not make economic sens.

What can be done; as was the case till early seventies; is to do away with the price difference between the two fuels. To price the fuels near each other (and also kerosene) is an administrative call. Considering that the major diesel users in India are Trucks/buses, Earth moving machinery and Railways - commercial transportation any increase in diesel prices will affect the Nation's economics and have a serious political backlash. Private diesel cars consume less than 2% of the fuel, rest is commercial use.

The major reason for pollution in metros has less to do with fuel but more with congestion. Fuel burnt idling at crossings or while travelling in low gears results in a lot of pollution, which can be reduced considerably by stream lining the traffic, rather than banning new vehicles.

[embee]

As per Indian Express news,
The Supreme Court on Saturday (30-04-2016) extended the stay on registration of diesel vehicles above 2000 cc capacity in the Delhi-NCR region until further orders. The court was hearing various petitions related to its earlier rulings on controlling the problem of pollution in the city.
The court also slammed the government for not being serious about the issue of pollution.

Additionally, the court refused to extend the deadline for the conversion of private diesel taxis into CNG. Only CNG taxis will be allowed to ply on Delhi roads from May 1. Cabs with all-India permits are exempt from the order though.

The link to the news article is given as below:-
http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/supreme-court-extends-stay-on-registration-of-diesel-vehicles-in-delhi-ncr-region-2777835/

[apachelongbow]

I just renewed my PUC today. The new renewal test included measuring emissions at idle and 2500rpm. My 2 year old Storme gave out exactly 1 hpa of smoke versus the passing norm of 65 hpa. So as per the government my car is 65 times less polluting than required. Kudos to the court to ban such engines and encourage pumpset driven small cars which will pollute more...and that judge had the audacity to cry before the PM saying his job is so hard....

[SX4LOVER]

Well, so now if an individual residing in gurgaon wants to buy a vehicle with more than 2000 cc capacity, where does he go to register it??