[Epic]

Hi guys,

Would definitely choose an European car over a Japanese.

I have always owned a Japanese (Maruti Suzuki) car in the past and realized that I loved Japanese cars because I was made to believe that there is nothing better than that until I bought my VW Polo 1.6!! Yes servicing an European car is more expensive but is required once a year where as a Japanese car may require it twice a year and will probably still cost the same as that of the Europeans. The build quality of a German car is way ahead of that of a Japanese car. I guess that is why Europeans usually offer a warranty on anti corrosion where as Japs do not do so.

[supremeBaleno]

^^^Don't know for sure about the other Japs, but most Suzuki cars (if not all, with M800 being phased out), the service interval is only once a year. And it has been like this for many years now.

[desdemona]

Originally Posted by wilful

I've been coming across this point for quite a while now - cars sold in India being structurally different (watered down?) compared to the same model in say Europe. Why is this so - is it to save metal and money, or is it to make the vehicle lighter for fuel efficiency or is it because of the other changes (like increased GC) that are done for our road conditions?

I'll just say this: that is what the European and American car makers have to do to compete on cost with the East Asian marques this market seems to indulge so much.

BTW, the Linea and Punto, Duster, Fluence and also the Ford Fiesta have been diluted the least (e.g., torsion beams used in the rear...) while the VW Polo and Vento have been diluted considerably, though VW is correcting itself currently.

I also regard Tata Motors as being in the European camp when it comes to suspension, build solidity, safety, the paint job and even, going by the interiors of the Zest nd Bolt, design BUT with an Indian cost structure.

[shashank.nk]

I have both a solid euro (Octavia) and a flimsily built Jap (New Swift) at home, frankly speaking I don't find myself 'safe' in one car over the other.

We generally pick the Octy for highway runs if there are more than 3 as its more comfortable due to less vertical movements at the rear and a much better ride.

If i'm alone or there are only 2 persons travelling,I prefer to be in the Swift for the sheer FTD factor on the open road. Its got reasonable levels of insulation for the price it sells at and it wouldn't be a fair comparison if I were to compare it to the more expensive Octavia.

I'd also like to learn about how a thicker sheet metal has a bearing on safety of a car. I haven't come across any decent article comparing a thicker sheet metal car with a thinner one. Would love to see how they fare under similar circumstances.

[saket77]

I will pick a Japanese car in India any day.

The Japanese cars have taken the Indian conditions - read - poor fuel, abusive roads, unfavorable weather conditions really well and built a good reputation over past decades, which unfortunately, the Euro cars seem to be lacking as of now. And lets agree, European cars were never at the top of reliability list anytime. The after sales of most Japanese manufacturers is fantastic and fuss free.

The Euro cars have high cost of ownership and pretty bad service reputation here, which is unforgiving from my side, at least. The spares cost a bomb for the Euro cars. One may argue that they cost high because of better quality. If so, why do they seem to be failing more often? The cost is high primarily due to 2 main reasons - non localization of spares production and part sharing with more expensive cars in the portfolio of the same manufacturer. It is no secret that VW shares a lot of spares among Audi and a few more expensive cars along with Skoda & VW . The manufacturer surely benefits from economy of scales by way of mass production, but then in turn, they have to price it high as the spare is shared by an Audi, so in turn, a Skoda or a VW owner has to bear the brunt in terms of pricing. There are times when spares have to imported from manufacturer directly as the Indian dealer does not stock expensive parts. This may take months to arrive which means a long downtime for the services of a car - the prime reason to own one is defeated.

Agree that they have a better build quality and in general, they are safer than Jap counterparts, but then reliability and ease of maintenance is also an important aspect which cannot be looked over. What is wrong with a 5 star rated safety Japanese car? The worldwide reputation of reliability of Japs was not built in a fortnight. It has history running through decades.

Regards,
Saket

[Oranger]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

This should be a no-brainer given that the Japs not only sell more cars than the EU competition, but outsell them by such a HUGE margin that there is no competition at all. So no wonder claims are more given the humongous number of cars on the road. Nothing to do with their build/safety etc.

To put things in perspective, the Japs sold 1lakh+ cars last month. Compared to a measly 828 Fiats in total sold across all models/variants. How many of the 828 sold across India do you expect would come to you for a claim?

Sir supremebaleno, I had already replied in terms of percentage but the post was deleted in the moderation process which I fully respect. It may sound a no brainer to you buy not to the ones willing to accept the facts.

I already mentioned ICR(incurred claims ratio) for Maruti and other japs compared to the European ones. And when there's a calculation made on percentage as a factor, selling lakhs and crores does not matter. Maruti's ICR in all major cities is 90-100 on an average, which states 100 cars sold and 100 cars in for a insurance claim. On the other hand the European one's do not exceed even 30%. Now this should sound as brainer to you.

Please let me make it clear that I'm in no way trying to promote Fiat but sharing my experience out of ownership of both the Europeans and Japanese cars. So nothing personal against any brand but just a fair idea of what's on offer and I think this should be taken positively and not as critic to anyone's loved brands/cars.

Regards,
Mahesh

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by Oranger

I already mentioned ICR(incurred claims ratio) for Maruti and other japs compared to the European ones. And when there's a calculation made on percentage as a factor, selling lakhs and crores does not matter. Maruti's ICR in all major cities is 90-100 on an average, which states 100 cars sold and 100 cars in for a insurance claim. On the other hand the European one's do not exceed even 30%. Now this should sound as brainer to you.

I am not in insurance and don't have access to ICR figures, but I fail to understand what a brand has to do with an accident claim. An accident is caused by the driver, not the car. And I doubt all guys buying Maruti drive atrociously to cause accidents, while the moment they drive EU cars they drive with care. And the 100% claim figures you put forth seem tad unbelievable (could you share data here?) and also not match what we see around us. Couple of examples.

My 9-year old Baleno has a 50% NCB on it - not a single claim made. And this for a car that is running in a major Indian city.

A colleague that used to own a Corsa, M800 has claimed accident damage atleast once every year on both cars, including a serious accident where the Corsa (a strong, heavy EU car) was flipped upside down. I think that is to do with his driving, not the brand of cars he uses.

[desdemona]

Originally Posted by saket77

I will pick a Japanese car in India any day.

The Japanese cars have taken the Indian conditions - read - poor fuel, abusive roads, unfavorable weather conditions really well and built a good reputation over past decades, which unfortunately, the Euro cars seem to be lacking as of now. And lets agree, European cars were never at the top of reliability list anytime. The after sales of most Japanese manufacturers is fantastic and fuss free.

The Euro cars have high cost of ownership and pretty bad service reputation here, which is unforgiving from my side, at least. The spares cost a bomb for the Euro cars. One may argue that they cost high because of better quality. If so, why do they seem to be failing more often? Agree that they have a better build quality and in general, they are safer than Jap counterparts, but then reliability and ease of maintenance is also an important aspect which cannot be looked over. What is wrong with a 5 star rated safety Japanese car? The worldwide reputation of reliability of Japs was not built in a fortnight. It has history running through decades.

Regards,
Saket

Hi.

Please do not miss my satirical post on the reliability and ASS-obsessed Indian car buyer, just a little earlier in this thread.

With 'all due respect', 'i very humbly submit': your views, no doubt shared by the vast majority are stereotype-ridden, and rather dated. The Japanese no longer have any significant lead the world over either in reliability or quality. If anything, it is Hyundai that can, the world over, be taken to be the benchmark in these (IMO limited) respects.

For eg., I can assure you that spare part prices for Fiat and Ford are lower on average by a fair bit to either Hyundai or Honda or Toyota. As is the cost of ownership: they have long service intervals of 15,000 km. Fiat at least also has far superior warranty policies: in practice and not just theory.

I also disagree that East Asian cars are well-suited or adapted to Indian conditions. Low ground clearance? A deficit of underbody protection? Tinny build on the world's most dangerous roads (India's)? Choppy suspensions on choppy roads? Petrol engines with no turbocharging, resulting in poor low-end torque? Unrefined, crude-ish diesel engines (Toyota, Honda)? Skinny, poor-quality tyres (Honda, Suzuki)? Far poor-er than European brakes (early Fortuner? Swift diesel? New Honda City?)

What they are good at is bling, gizmo-s, and 'futuristic' styling. And at milking the herd of un-informed, risk-averse, car buyers i.e., the vast majority of Indians.

To be fair, the Europeans and Americans do have a dodgy record (Ford Escort? Fiat Uno? Opel?) in India ONCE UPON A TIME, but that is an old, lapsed story, that has not been true for the last 4-5 years at least.

Honda, Hyundai and Suzuki are only milking their good early-mover advantages.

[xtremeshock]

A Japanese Car as a daily drive, eg Swift, Toyota etc.

Weekend drive, occassional drive definitely a European, eg, an Ocatvia Tsi for a weekend drive would be just awesome.

[desdemona]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

I am not in insurance and don't have access to ICR figures, but I fail to understand what a brand has to do with an accident claim. An accident is caused by the driver, not the car. And I doubt all guys buying Maruti drive atrociously to cause accidents, while the moment they drive EU cars they drive with care. And the 100% claim figures you put forth seem tad unbelievable (could you share data here?) and also not match what we see around us. Couple of examples.

My 9-year old Baleno has a 50% NCB on it - not a single claim made. And this for a car that is running in a major Indian city.

A colleague that used to own a Corsa, M800 has claimed accident damage atleast once every year on both cars, including a serious accident where the Corsa (a strong, heavy EU car) was flipped upside down. I think that is to do with his driving, not the brand of cars he uses.

I think you are willfully missing what he is, as someone familiar with Insurance underwiting and statistical patterns, claiming about Japanese cars. If I understand his point: he is saying that Japanese cars tend to require bigger Insurance payouts, EVEN if you adjust for their vastly greater numbers on road, and even if you compare like-with-like.

If his expertise is to be trusted: that is DAMNING for the Japanese/East Asian giants. But who's listening, and who cares, in our market?

[supremeBaleno]

^^^Check out what he says here, especially the part in bold : "Maruti's ICR in all major cities is 90-100 on an average, which states 100 cars sold and 100 cars in for a insurance claim."
He is referring to the number/percentage of cars coming in for a claim, not the quantum of each claim.

[wilful]

Ok - this should be an eye opener to most of us. The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, an American organisation, conducts extensive safety tests annually across categories. I am posting relevant links. We will find that the Jap cars are not as fragile as we think. And before we conclude hastily by saying, 'Oh but Jap cars sold in the US are different to the ones sold here', the same applies to the other automakers too.
And apparently they have made conditions even more stringent this time.

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/TSP-List

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tanyamoh...cars-for-2014/

[desdemona]

Originally Posted by wilful

Ok - this should be an eye opener to most of us. The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, an American organisation, conducts extensive safety tests annually across categories. I am posting relevant links. We will find that the Jap cars are not as fragile as we think. And before we conclude hastily by saying, 'Oh but Jap cars sold in the US are different to the ones sold here', the same applies to the other automakers too.
And apparently they have made conditions even more stringent this time.

http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/TSP-List

http://www.forbes.com/sites/tanyamoh...cars-for-2014/

That would not be a hasty conclusion at all. The Honda City and the Hyundai Verna are not offered in the US, otherwise their biggest market, for a reason! I look forward to comparing the specs on these counts of the upcoming Honda Jazz to the American Honda Fit. NONE of the other sub-D-segment East Asian cars sold here is offered in the US.

Also, if you consider the Indian Linea, Punto, Fiesta (old and new), Figo, Ecosport, Duster, and even Fabia and Polo to a degree, in light of their European versions: you find there has been very little dilution of standards of build, sheetmetal heft, ride and handling, braking and tyre specifications. Sure, fewer airbags, different steering units and diluted engines in some cases, but that's all.

That is because these attributes are part of their brand DNA. These very attributes are either missing or peripheral to the brand image/stories and DNA of the East Asian marques. They are each being quite true to their brand characters.

Safety, sturdiness, weightiness and ride-handling-braking balance are just not important to the Japanese and Korean brand identities in India, or even, to a degree, anywhere else. They do not and will not provide these to a decent level unless forced by the regulations. The sales figures certainly don't indicate that the market will push them to change their ways.

[JayKis]

Originally Posted by desdemona

That would not be a hasty conclusion at all. The Honda City and the Hyundai Verna are not offered in the US, otherwise their biggest market, for a reason! I look forward to comparing the specs on these counts of the upcoming Honda Jazz to the American Honda Fit. NONE of the other sub-D-segment East Asian cars sold here is offered in the US.

Also, if you consider the Indian Linea, Punto, Fiesta (old and new), Figo, Ecosport, Duster, and even Fabia and Polo to a degree, in light of their European versions: you find there has been very little dilution of standards of build, sheetmetal heft, ride and handling, braking and tyre specifications. Sure, fewer airbags, different steering units and diluted engines in some cases, but that's all.

That is because these attributes are part of their brand DNA. These very attributes are either missing or peripheral to the brand image/stories and DNA of the East Asian marques. They are each being quite true to their brand characters.

Safety, sturdiness, weightiness and ride-handling-braking balance are just not important to the Japanese and Korean brand identities in India, or even, to a degree, anywhere else. They do not and will not provide these to a decent level unless forced by the regulations. The sales figures certainly don't indicate that the market will push them to change their ways.

Absolutely to the point.This is what I had raised in the morning in the other thread before the clean up and the post got deleted. (Am not a European car fan boy btw but if I had a last chance at life i would like to be seated in one)

Any ways here are two pictures which are pretty symbolic of the build quality of a European car and Japanese car.

One got hit by a train (Palio)and other (Ertiga) got hit by Tata 407 truck. The Ertiga looks more like it had come out of the train wreck thou!!!

(For people who think that the Tata 407 can cause more damage than a train am all ears wide open )

[pgsagar]

Interesting thread! Sometime back elsewhere I read opinions of one set of teambhpians who argued that thicker sheet metal and heavier body does not mean safer car. And here, now we see another group which says European cars are heavier and have thicker sheet metal ( and built like a tank ) and hence are safer compared to Japanese. Now which group is right? And yes, I think it is about time we stopped repeating this "built-like-a-tank" cliche. Tanks are built way way stronger than any of these cars-- European or Japanese.