[supremeBaleno]

Given the constant mention of EU cars having thicker sheet-metal & the Asian ones allegedly skimping on it to fatten their profits, it would make sense to see
where this extra metal actually lies, if at all it is there. And where best will it be reflected than in the kerb-weight of the cars that are peers (segment, engine etc).
Look at data below for 2 cars that are in the same segment from the respective manufacturer websites :

SX4-D : 1225 / 1245 kgs
Linea-D: 1236 / 1255 / 1268 kgs

Given that both use the exact same engine, if indeed Linea used thicker sheet-metal, it should have weighed considerably higher. But that is not the case.
Dimension-wise, they are similar in width (1735/1730), while the Linea is longer (4596 vs 4500) and the SX4 is taller (1560 vs 1494) - so roughly they square off on size.

And when you bring in another peer, a true-blue EU car, the Vento (4384 x 1699 x 1466), the figures get interesting. The Vento-D variants weigh in only at 1190 / 1220 kgs
which is lower than even the SX4. This inspite of the fact that it has an engine with 300cc more displacement, which should add some more weight to the engine than the SX4.

So, where exactly is that extra sheet metal hiding in the Linea / Vento ? Surely not on the cars, but maybe in certain fertile imaginations.

[desdemona]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Given the constant mention of EU cars having thicker sheet-metal & the Asian ones allegedly skimping on it to fatten their profits, it would make sense to see
where this extra metal actually lies, if at all it is there. And where best will it be reflected than in the kerb-weight of the cars that are similar-engined and thus peers.
Look at data below for 2 cars that are in the same segment from the respective manufacturer websites :

SX4-D : 1225 / 1245 kgs
Linea-D: 1236 / 1255 / 1268 kgs

Given that both use the exact same engine, if indeed Linea used thicker sheet-metal, it should have weighed considerably higher. But that is not the case.
Dimension-wise, they are similar in width (1735/1730), while the Linea is longer (4596 vs 4500) and the SX4 is taller (1560 vs 1494) - so roughly they square off on size.

And when you bring in another peer, a true-blue EU car, the Vento, the figures get interesting. The Vento-D variants weigh in only at 1190 / 1220 kgs which is lower than even the SX4.
This inspite of the fact that it has an engine with 300cc more displacement, which should add some more weight to the engine than the SX4.

So, where exactly is that extra sheet metal hiding in the Linea / Vento ? Surely not on the cars, but maybe in certain fertile imaginations.

Bad example: the SX4 IS a made-for-Europe car, and then much later brought to India. It was designed, engineered and sold in combination with Fiat. The Fiat version is called the Sedici.

The Vento and Rapid are diluted for third-world sedans, not at all true-blue EU. VW states that openly. They are not sold in the EU, in any version, dilute or thick.

The benchmark for all such comparisons should be Fiat-s and Ford-s, since they are the best, least watered-down examples of the European automotive philosophy, in the sub-D-segment, in India.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Given the constant mention of EU cars having thicker sheet-metal & the Asian ones allegedly skimping on it to fatten their profits, it would make sense to see
where this extra metal actually lies, if at all it is there. And where best will it be reflected than in the kerb-weight of the cars that are peers (segment, engine

Exactly. Too much fuss about thicker sheet metal. One thing is for sure - The SX4 was not built in the usual maruti way. I can see that after owning one. Moreover its design roots are from Europe, or Italy in specifuc. Hence I feel it is built so. And yes the sheet metal is thicker when I see the thickness of panels in my WagonR or even my neighbours Dzire. The car was not cost cut for Indian market apart from deletion of some kit.

And seeing how VW, Skoda are readying themselves for the Indian market, lighter cars are expected. And many people regard safety as follows: "I rammed into a bullock cart with my European car and the bumper just suffered a scratch. Not sure where the bullock cart was. My car is the safest". And they disregard cars which crumple up to save occupants. There was a badly banged up Dzire which was converted to a swift, and the occupants just felt a loud thud. Now it is a safer car compared to one that is built with very thick metal because it will definitely give a jolt to passengers, which at times may be unwelcome or even fatal due to neck injuries etc.

The Euro NCAP speaks quite a lot and sheds the common belief about stronger v/s safer cars.

[wilful]

Originally Posted by desdemona

Bad example: the SX4 IS a made-for-Europe car, and then much later brought to India. It was designed, engineered and sold in combination with Fiat. The Fiat version is called the Sedici.

The Vento and Rapid are diluted for third-world sedans, not at all true-blue EU. VW states that openly. They are not sold in the EU, in any version, dilute or thick.

The benchmark for all such comparisons should be Fiat-s and Ford-s, since they are the best, least watered-down examples of the European automotive philosophy, in the sub-D-segment, in India.

Ahhh... now we come to the heart of the matter. Let me get this straight then. It's not just the East Asians - the Europeans and Americans (going by that earlier quoted example of the Ecosport) are culpable too in an anything goes market like India.
The Japs have an excellent safety rating in the US which proves in advanced markets they are second to none in terms of safety. As far as India is concerned, no one is altruistic or principled if one may call it that. They are all doing the same thing - maybe the degree varies.

[ad3952n]

Originally Posted by vvb8530

only issue i am trying to raise here is that you mention structural strength and poor sheet metal quality, now i am no engineer but the structural strength of a car is not defined alone by the quality of the sheet metal. What i find funny is that you are comparing this to an esteem, as someone else has pointed out in his post as well, pray that you are in your city rather than your esteem in a high speed crash.

Well, quality of metal used in the car's development is one of the core components that depicts it's structural strength. The crash tests that have been written about here are also a potent way of judging the structural strength of the car along with various other safety devices installed in it.

My reason of Comparison of comparing City's structural strength to a Esteem or an Optra is just because I have owned them over the years and my point of view about City Ivtec has developed in this time period.

I respect Ishaan's point of view, but to be honest Honda City Ivtec does not stand anywhere near to an Esteem even with it's world class safety measures according to me. Even without airbags I have survived crashes in Esteem, Optra and Premier Padmini and when I had a hit with this City Ivtec I was really annoyed.

i cannot accept your conclusion on the sheet metal quality of esteem being better than the city. In the crash examples that you have quoted, there could be a lot of reasons to explain the difference in the extent of the damage.

To agree or disagree, they are 2 sides of the same coin. One aspect of Honda City may be good for you but can't be good for me necessarily.

In fact in a recent thread by another member his Laura was hit by a Honda Activa and the damage was such that the Laura had to be written off due to the extent of the repairs required. Does that mean that the Esteem is better than the Laura too.

I am simply re-writing your point here: In the crash example that you have quoted, there can be lot of reasons to explain the extent of the damage.

What is a known fact and relevant to this thread is that the Europeans are known to have a better quality sheet metal and built like tanks compared to the Jap's, however that does not mean that the Jap's are not safe enough.

Over here I would like to clarify, I have nothing against Japanese car brands. As a matter of fact, I own 2 of them. My point is really specific to Honda City Ivtec 3rd gen model. This specific Japanese model has lot of short comings which I as an owner pointed out here.

neither is it right to call them 3rd Class or pathetic just because the sheet metal quality is not good enough for you. Lots of other things that make them 1st Class, reliability and after sales itself getting them there.

I beg to differ, In case of a mishap, the after-sales or brand name can't do anything. The 1st thing that will help in the passenger's survival is the strength of the car i.e how well is it built to accommodate the hit. So, On this ground I feel Esteem and Optra both are very well built.

Today if my Paa is alive is simply because of the strength of the Optra to have taken the hit very well at 80 kmph on NH8 Gurgaon last year. Had it been a Honda City then even with airbags the worst would have been inevitable. I say this with all surety.

Finally, I have stated my views upon the car brands that I have owned so far.

Thanks

AD

[desdemona]

Originally Posted by wilful

Ahhh... now we come to the heart of the matter. Let me get this straight then. It's not just the East Asians - the Europeans and Americans (going by that earlier quoted example of the Ecosport) are culpable too in an anything goes market like India.
The Japs have an excellent safety rating in the US which proves in advanced markets they are second to none in terms of safety. As far as India is concerned, no one is altruistic or principled if one may call it that. They are all doing the same thing - maybe the degree varies.

It is the Japanese and Koreans who control this market, lock stock and barrel, they therefore set the widely accepted 'standards' (such as they are!) not just of safety but also ride, handling, braking, tyres, steering, high-speed stability, and repair-ability.

VW has tried to play the cut-price/dilute-EU-standards game with the Polo and the Vento/Rapid, and IMO, failed, and they have openly admitted their bewilderment at that failure.

IMO, absent strong government regulations, the Japanese and Koreans have set as poor a standard on these ESSENTIAL automotive qualities as they could have.

I will concede only that, as a corollary, they've set good standards on ASS, and to a degree reliability, that the Europeans are beginning to match in India.

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by desdemona

Bad example: the SX4 IS a made-for-Europe car, and then much later brought to India. It was designed, engineered and sold in combination with Fiat.

It is a perfectly valid example, given the context of our discussion where we are discussing cars sold in India and all 3 come under that category and are peers.
Also as an Indian customer I see the SX4 as a Suzuki - I don't care where it was designed or where its roots are from.
Or how does it matter to an Indian buyer if the Vento/Rapid is not sold elsewhere ? They evaluate it only for what it is as sold here and thus makes for a valid comparo.

Originally Posted by desdemona

The Vento and Rapid are diluted for third-world sedans, not at all true-blue EU. VW states that openly. They are not sold in the EU, in any version, dilute or thick.

So thanks for finally confirming exactly the opposite of what you were claiming all along. All this time you were crying hoarse about the Asians giving us substandard stuff, while now you yourself have confirmed that the EUs (Skoda/VW) are the actual diluters while the Asian Suzuki has actually given the same EU engineered SX4 here without dilution.

Guess we can now close the case of the missing sheet-metal.

Originally Posted by desdemona

The benchmark for all such comparisons should be Fiat-s and Ford-s, since they are the best, least watered-down examples of the European automotive philosophy, in the sub-D-segment, in India.

Please go ahead and check out similar data for Figo/Swift and you will see figures on the same lines.

[Mopar]

Originally Posted by wilful

As far as India is concerned, no one is altruistic or principled if one may call it that. They are all doing the same thing - maybe the degree varies.

The reasons are different.

Japs & more so Koreans are doing it because they can and they are the masters at cutting costs.

Europeans are doing because that's the only way left to be competitive in this 'price is supreme,kitna deti hai, safety goes to dogs' market.

[A350XWB]

Originally Posted by RohanDheman

For a large number of people, majority of whom are not enthusiasts, that reassuring thud makes a lot of difference. For them its the difference between a well built and a poorly build car. no offence meant to what you said.

No offence taken. That is exactly where a community like ours should help others understand that there are lots of factors which contribute to a safer car.

Originally Posted by blacksport

True, thicker sheet metal do not make a car safe. BUT, we cannot strip a car down to check how well it is built. A manufacturer willing to be miserly with the sheet metal is more likely to be miserly with the structure as well.

This is where the crash tests help. During crash testing, they try to see how each car behaves in similar situations and then give ratings accordingly. I for one, believe in those ratings because there is no other measurement criteria yet, which compares different models.

Originally Posted by desdemona

The Vento and Rapid are diluted for third-world sedans, not at all true-blue EU. VW states that openly.

The benchmark for all such comparisons should be Fiat-s and Ford-s, since they are the best, least watered-down examples of the European automotive philosophy, in the sub-D-segment, in India.

Are you not countering your own argument here by saying that Europeans do water down their Indian models? And please read the article where Ford themselves admitted that the EU version of the Ecosport has better structural rigidity and many parts which are different from their Indian spec car.

And I would not comment on who has watered down their cars in the Indian market because there is no exhaustive testing done to find it out. So, until I have scientific test results or evidence available, I would like to refrain from commenting on this; and will not base my arguments on word of mouth, urban legends or thuds I rest my case until then.

[audioholic]

Originally Posted by desdemona

The benchmark for all such comparisons should be Fiat-s and Ford-s, since they are the best, least watered-down examples of the European automotive philosophy, in the sub-D-segment, in India.

FIAT benchmark?

Fiat Punto top end emotion - 1130kgs (from TBHP)
Ford Figo Titanium diesel - 1130kgs (from website)
Maruti Ritz ZDi - 1125kgs (from website)
Maruti Swift VDi - 1080kgs (from website) - This with a plastic fuel tank and many other weight reduction methods.

5kgs of extra sheet metal for the Punto and Figo to set a benchmark ahead of the ritz? Even the swift is 50kgs lighter which may be considerable, having a plastic fuel tank which can cut off around 10kgs at least.

[blacksport]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

It is a perfectly valid example, given the context of our discussion where we are discussing cars sold in India and all 3 come under that category and are peers.
Also as an Indian customer I see the SX4 as a Suzuki

Instead of comparing one fiat to another, pick a proper maruti. Why dont you compare the baleno to the linea? Or to the sienna/petra? Or compare the swift to the punto? Waiting for the numbers.

[TorqueyTechie]

After having driven mostly Japanese cars (read Maruti) during my initial days, I was in for a good surprise when I drove my friend's Fiesta. Driving in normal straights doesn't make much difference but the handling in the twists/ghats was awesome. From then on, I used to always yearn for driving an European/American cars just because of the better handling.

After moving to US , I consciously avoided Japanese cars and bought a BMW. It just is a treat to handle the car during the drives be it straights or curves.

I voted for European cars. After having driven other cars as well (Merc, Audi, Ford's. GMC's, Toyota's and Honda's), I believe European cars are better and its not just because of sheet metal, its also for style, engineering & handling. I believe what makes the European cars a better handler would be a little negative camber that they provide along with the heavy build which enhances the sporty feel.

Japanese cars are on par with European on style and engineering but handling is one aspect where in they lose out. (Try driving a SX4/Verna in any twists and then a Fiat/Ford to get the difference).

But European cars do lose out on the reliability factor and the biggest of all the "Kitna Deti hai factor".

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by blacksport

Instead of comparing one fiat to another, pick a proper maruti. Why dont you compare the baleno to the linea? Or to the sienna/petra? Or compare the swift to the punto? Waiting for the numbers.

Buddy the SX4 was Suzuki's third global strategic model back then, after the Swift and the Grand Vitara. It uses a Suzuki engineered Japanese chassis, drivetrain, transmissions both manual and CVT, awd system (abroad) etc. Suzuki was responsible for product management from concept to mass production. Fiat merely co styled the product with the Italdesign house and provided their MultiJet diesel motors. Infact their agreement was that 2/3rds of production would be done my Suzuki leaving 1/3rd for Fiat. In a nutshell, the product is a Suzuki.
Just because it happens to be a nice product, please don't jump your guns and point out that it was because Fiat had everything to do with it

As for wanting to compare the Baleno to the Linea, please tell me you're joking. The Baleno is a product that dates back to 1995. The famous Euro NCAP itself, didn't come into existence until 1997. Safety amongst C segment sedans back then, was not considered as seriously as it is today.

[desdemona]

Originally Posted by A350XWB

No offence taken. That is exactly where a community like ours should help others understand that there are lots of factors which contribute to a safer car.

This is where the crash tests help. During crash testing, they try to see how each car behaves in similar situations and then give ratings accordingly. I for one, believe in those ratings because there is no other measurement criteria yet, which compares different models.



Are you not countering your own argument here by saying that Europeans do water down their Indian models? And please read the article where Ford themselves admitted that the EU version of the Ecosport has better structural rigidity and many parts which are different from their Indian spec car.

And I would not comment on who has watered down their cars in the Indian market because there is no exhaustive testing done to find it out. So, until I have scientific test results or evidence available, I would like to refrain from commenting on this; and will not base my arguments on word of mouth, urban legends or thuds I rest my case until then.

And why pray tell are there no such tests available? Who controls this marketplace? Answer: the gang of 3 East Asian firms + Mahindra. Why? Because of even well-informed and well-travelled buyers swearing by them with no small amounts of blind faith, numbering in millions.

I have driven the Punto and the Ford Fiesta (previous two generations) in the UK, and have confirmed this several times from Fiat India engineers I have had the occasion to interact with: the Indian Punto is the SAME car as the Euro one, except for the use of cheaper materials in the interiors, and a torsion beam in the rear suspension. The UK Fiesta I drove felt just like the Indian Fiesta: that is, heavy, accurate, stable, and feelsome handling+braking+steering.

I have to simply repeat: these two cars out-handle, out-steer, out-brake, ou-grip and out-ride ALL of their Japanese and Korean competition. Throw in the far heftier build and what you get is the benchmark in the over-all quality of engineering. I am not saying the Japs are less capable, I am saying they have deliberately abused the immaturity of the market and the passivity of the government.

The Japanese and Koreans sell not for these features but because of a (well-earned?) superior PERCEPTION of reliability and ASS quality. Alongwith gadgetry and styling. And they have, through their early successes in this market, warped the automotive culture in India.

I'd argue the only perverse urban legend at play in this marketplace is the naive and almost touchingly blind belief in the reliability, quality, and 'value' of the Japanese and Korean brands.

So, a new Ford Fiesta sedan, a champion car, sells in single digits while a car as poorly executed as the Verna sells at 5000? A flimsy, cost-cut, very sub-par new Honda City sells at the record rate of 9000?!

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

Buddy the SX4 was Suzuki's third global strategic model back then, after the Swift and the Grand Vitara. It uses a Suzuki engineered Japanese chassis, drivetrain, transmissions both manual and CVT, awd system (abroad) etc. Suzuki was responsible for product management from concept to mass production. Fiat merely co styled the product with the Italdesign house and provided their MultiJet diesel motors. Infact their agreement was that 2/3rds of production would be done my Suzuki leaving 1/3rd for Fiat. In a nutshell, the product is a Suzuki.
Just because it happens to be a nice product, please don't jump your guns and point out that it was because Fiat had everything to do with it

If that is so: why is it so obviously different and superior to all the other Suzuki products sold here, including the Swift? (Not including the Kizashi, of course, which was engineered to a totally different, un-Indo-Japanese i.e., American sporty sedan standard!)

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

It is a perfectly valid example, given the context of our discussion where we are discussing cars sold in India and all 3 come under that category and are peers.
Also as an Indian customer I see the SX4 as a Suzuki - I don't care where it was designed or where its roots are from.

So thanks for finally confirming exactly the opposite of what you were claiming all along. All this time you were crying hoarse about the Asians giving us substandard stuff, while now you yourself have confirmed that the EUs (Skoda/VW) are the actual diluters while the Asian Suzuki has actually given the same EU engineered SX4 here without dilution.

Guess we can now close the case of the missing sheet-metal.

Please go ahead and check out similar data for Figo/Swift and you will see figures on the same lines.

If you see all my particular posts, I have not been stressing sheet-metal at all. So, your sarcasm is mis-directed. I have been saying that the Japanese cars are out-ridden, out-braked, out-handled, out-steered, and out-engineered by the Fords and Fiats and the VW/Skoda d-segment cars. With or without heavy sheetmetal and with or without the extra safety/repair-ability that may or may not bring: the Euro cars are the engineering benchmark IN THIS MARKET.

The Jap and Korean firms couldn't be less bothered about all such hair-splitting about ride, handling, braking and sheetmetal: they're selling tens of thousands every month on the (valid?) promise of greater reliability and better ASS alone.

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[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by desdemona

If that is so: why is it so obviously different and superior to all the other Suzuki products sold here, including the Swift? (Not including the Kizashi, of course, which was engineered to a totally different, un-Indo-Japanese i.e., American sporty sedan standard!)

I could find references if you actually doubt me. Perhaps Suzuki does occasionally sell good products these days? While the Indian Swift may not be as safe as a Polo or Punto, preliminary global ncap test results said that it was comparably safe. I believe that all the new, global and also relatively premium Suzuki products, are actually good; Swift, Grand Vitara, SX4, Kizashi.
You won't catch me defending a Wagon R, Alto 800, Versa or Ertiga