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View Poll Results: Whats your pick? | |||
European Cars | ![]() ![]() ![]() | 211 | 43.78% |
Japanese Cars | ![]() ![]() ![]() | 219 | 45.44% |
Others (Indian, Korean, American etc.) | ![]() ![]() ![]() | 22 | 4.56% |
Prefer both equally | ![]() ![]() ![]() | 30 | 6.22% |
Voters: 482. You may not vote on this poll |
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![]() | #256 |
Senior - BHPian ![]() | ![]() Given the constant mention of EU cars having thicker sheet-metal & the Asian ones allegedly skimping on it to fatten their profits, it would make sense to see where this extra metal actually lies, if at all it is there. And where best will it be reflected than in the kerb-weight of the cars that are peers (segment, engine etc). Look at data below for 2 cars that are in the same segment from the respective manufacturer websites : SX4-D : 1225 / 1245 kgs Linea-D: 1236 / 1255 / 1268 kgs Given that both use the exact same engine, if indeed Linea used thicker sheet-metal, it should have weighed considerably higher. But that is not the case. Dimension-wise, they are similar in width (1735/1730), while the Linea is longer (4596 vs 4500) and the SX4 is taller (1560 vs 1494) - so roughly they square off on size. And when you bring in another peer, a true-blue EU car, the Vento (4384 x 1699 x 1466), the figures get interesting. The Vento-D variants weigh in only at 1190 / 1220 kgs which is lower than even the SX4. This inspite of the fact that it has an engine with 300cc more displacement, which should add some more weight to the engine than the SX4. So, where exactly is that extra sheet metal hiding in the Linea / Vento ? Surely not on the cars, but maybe in certain fertile imaginations. ![]() Last edited by supremeBaleno : 14th May 2014 at 18:21. |
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![]() | #257 | |
BHPian Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: gurgaon
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The Vento and Rapid are diluted for third-world sedans, not at all true-blue EU. VW states that openly. They are not sold in the EU, in any version, dilute or thick. The benchmark for all such comparisons should be Fiat-s and Ford-s, since they are the best, least watered-down examples of the European automotive philosophy, in the sub-D-segment, in India. | |
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![]() | #258 | |
Distinguished - BHPian ![]() ![]() Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: BengaLuru
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And seeing how VW, Skoda are readying themselves for the Indian market, lighter cars are expected. And many people regard safety as follows: "I rammed into a bullock cart with my European car and the bumper just suffered a scratch. Not sure where the bullock cart was. My car is the safest". And they disregard cars which crumple up to save occupants. There was a badly banged up Dzire which was converted to a swift, and the occupants just felt a loud thud. Now it is a safer car compared to one that is built with very thick metal because it will definitely give a jolt to passengers, which at times may be unwelcome or even fatal due to neck injuries etc. The Euro NCAP speaks quite a lot and sheds the common belief about stronger v/s safer cars. | |
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![]() | #259 | |
Senior - BHPian ![]() Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: cochin
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![]() The Japs have an excellent safety rating in the US which proves in advanced markets they are second to none in terms of safety. As far as India is concerned, no one is altruistic or principled if one may call it that. ![]() | |
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![]() | #260 | |||||
Senior - BHPian ![]() Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Noida (U.P)
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My reason of Comparison of comparing City's structural strength to a Esteem or an Optra is just because I have owned them over the years and my point of view about City Ivtec has developed in this time period. I respect Ishaan's point of view, but to be honest Honda City Ivtec does not stand anywhere near to an Esteem even with it's world class safety measures according to me. Even without airbags I have survived crashes in Esteem, Optra and Premier Padmini and when I had a hit with this City Ivtec I was really annoyed. Quote:
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Today if my Paa is alive is simply because of the strength of the Optra to have taken the hit very well at 80 kmph on NH8 Gurgaon last year. Had it been a Honda City then even with airbags the worst would have been inevitable. I say this with all surety. Finally, I have stated my views upon the car brands that I have owned so far. Thanks AD Last edited by ad3952n : 14th May 2014 at 19:10. Reason: spell check | |||||
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![]() | #261 | |
BHPian Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: gurgaon
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![]() VW has tried to play the cut-price/dilute-EU-standards game with the Polo and the Vento/Rapid, and IMO, failed, and they have openly admitted their bewilderment at that failure. IMO, absent strong government regulations, the Japanese and Koreans have set as poor a standard on these ESSENTIAL automotive qualities as they could have. I will concede only that, as a corollary, they've set good standards on ASS, and to a degree reliability, that the Europeans are beginning to match in India. | |
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![]() | #262 | |||
Senior - BHPian ![]() | ![]() Quote:
Also as an Indian customer I see the SX4 as a Suzuki - I don't care where it was designed or where its roots are from. Or how does it matter to an Indian buyer if the Vento/Rapid is not sold elsewhere ? They evaluate it only for what it is as sold here and thus makes for a valid comparo. Quote:
![]() Guess we can now close the case of the missing sheet-metal. ![]() Quote:
Last edited by supremeBaleno : 14th May 2014 at 20:01. | |||
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![]() | #263 | |
Newbie Join Date: May 2014 Location: Dubai, UAE
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Japs & more so Koreans are doing it because they can and they are the masters at cutting costs. Europeans are doing because that's the only way left to be competitive in this 'price is supreme,kitna deti hai, safety goes to dogs' market. | |
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![]() | #264 | |||
BHPian ![]() Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: BLR/PTA
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And I would not comment on who has watered down their cars in the Indian market because there is no exhaustive testing done to find it out. So, until I have scientific test results or evidence available, I would like to refrain from commenting on this; and will not base my arguments on word of mouth, urban legends or thuds ![]() | |||
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![]() | #265 | |
Distinguished - BHPian ![]() ![]() Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: BengaLuru
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Fiat Punto top end emotion - 1130kgs (from TBHP) Ford Figo Titanium diesel - 1130kgs (from website) Maruti Ritz ZDi - 1125kgs (from website) Maruti Swift VDi - 1080kgs (from website) - This with a plastic fuel tank and many other weight reduction methods. 5kgs of extra sheet metal for the Punto and Figo to set a benchmark ahead of the ritz? ![]() | |
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![]() | #266 |
BHPian ![]() Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: bangalore
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Instead of comparing one fiat to another, pick a proper maruti. Why dont you compare the baleno to the linea? Or to the sienna/petra? Or compare the swift to the punto? Waiting for the numbers. |
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![]() | #267 |
BHPian Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Bengaluru
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| ![]() After having driven mostly Japanese cars (read Maruti) during my initial days, I was in for a good surprise when I drove my friend's Fiesta. Driving in normal straights doesn't make much difference but the handling in the twists/ghats was awesome. From then on, I used to always yearn for driving an European/American cars just because of the better handling. After moving to US , I consciously avoided Japanese cars and bought a BMW. It just is a treat to handle the car during the drives be it straights or curves. I voted for European cars. After having driven other cars as well (Merc, Audi, Ford's. GMC's, Toyota's and Honda's), I believe European cars are better and its not just because of sheet metal, its also for style, engineering & handling. I believe what makes the European cars a better handler would be a little negative camber that they provide along with the heavy build which enhances the sporty feel. Japanese cars are on par with European on style and engineering but handling is one aspect where in they lose out. (Try driving a SX4/Verna in any twists and then a Fiat/Ford to get the difference). But European cars do lose out on the reliability factor and the biggest of all the "Kitna Deti hai factor". |
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![]() | #268 | |
Senior - BHPian ![]() | ![]() Quote:
Just because it happens to be a nice product, please don't jump your guns and point out that it was because Fiat had everything to do with it ![]() As for wanting to compare the Baleno to the Linea, ![]() Last edited by IshaanIan : 14th May 2014 at 22:20. | |
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![]() | #269 | |||
BHPian Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: gurgaon
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I have driven the Punto and the Ford Fiesta (previous two generations) in the UK, and have confirmed this several times from Fiat India engineers I have had the occasion to interact with: the Indian Punto is the SAME car as the Euro one, except for the use of cheaper materials in the interiors, and a torsion beam in the rear suspension. The UK Fiesta I drove felt just like the Indian Fiesta: that is, heavy, accurate, stable, and feelsome handling+braking+steering. I have to simply repeat: these two cars out-handle, out-steer, out-brake, ou-grip and out-ride ALL of their Japanese and Korean competition. Throw in the far heftier build and what you get is the benchmark in the over-all quality of engineering. I am not saying the Japs are less capable, I am saying they have deliberately abused the immaturity of the market and the passivity of the government. The Japanese and Koreans sell not for these features but because of a (well-earned?) superior PERCEPTION of reliability and ASS quality. Alongwith gadgetry and styling. And they have, through their early successes in this market, warped the automotive culture in India. I'd argue the only perverse urban legend at play in this marketplace is the naive and almost touchingly blind belief in the reliability, quality, and 'value' of the Japanese and Korean brands. So, a new Ford Fiesta sedan, a champion car, sells in single digits while a car as poorly executed as the Verna sells at 5000? A flimsy, cost-cut, very sub-par new Honda City sells at the record rate of 9000?! Quote:
If that is so: why is it so obviously different and superior to all the other Suzuki products sold here, including the Swift? (Not including the Kizashi, of course, which was engineered to a totally different, un-Indo-Japanese i.e., American sporty sedan standard! ![]() Quote:
The Jap and Korean firms couldn't be less bothered about all such hair-splitting about ride, handling, braking and sheetmetal: they're selling tens of thousands every month on the (valid?) promise of greater reliability and better ASS alone. Mod Note : Please use the EDIT or MULTI-QUOTE buttons instead of typing one post after another on the SAME THREAD! To know how to multi-quote, click here. We advise you to read the Forum Rules before proceeding any further. Last edited by moralfibre : 15th May 2014 at 08:12. | |||
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![]() | #270 | |
Senior - BHPian ![]() | ![]() Quote:
![]() You won't catch me defending a Wagon R, Alto 800, Versa or Ertiga ![]() | |
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