[mooza]

Originally Posted by Joxster

.. India should really focus on greener electricity before trying to introduce EVs on such a large scale..

On the positive side, for the air polluted cities like Delhi, there could be hope on this front, if one were to go by the article below:

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/61495277.cms

[Thermodynamics]

If we really want to bring down pollution we need not wait for 2030. A few low hanging fruits are available to the Governments (state and central) that can be implemented in reasonably short time.

- Provide bicycle lanes in mega cities (Delhi, Mumbai, Chennai, Kolkata, Bangalore, Hyderabad etc) and ensure they are not encroached by road side vendors.

- Stop the corporation/municipality trash collectors from burning the trash, instead segregate, recycle and dispose the rest properly.

- Build underground sewage system, Strom water collection/drain systems and prevent industrial effluents, domestic sewage mixing with water bodies.

[ashutoshb]

I want fellow members to read this blog Dirty Electric: With electrics, we will just be replacing diesel with coal. Crazy! by Shapur Kotwal.

Here is an excerpt:

What most people tend to forget is that electric cars don’t make any power, they only consume it. This is a fundamental difference. Understand it and you will understand the issue. So when you compare a petrol or diesel car with an electric, remember to attach a power station to it in your mind. Got the picture? Good.

Now this electricity has to come from somewhere; and that is problem number one. Yes, there are places in the world where electricity is being produced cleanly. But today, here in India, and in the foreseeable future production of electricity is the problem not the solution. Get this: 60-70 percent of our power today, depending on who you ask, still comes from coal. Even getting it down to 30-40 percent will be near impossible due to the rising demand. And add approximately six million electric car to it every year by 2030 and the load will just skyrocket.

And then I want everybody to read this news report filed today.

Over 300 coal-based power plants continue to emit more as deadline to comply with strict emission norms ends.

An excerpt:

Polluting coal-based power plants across the country were supposed to comply with strict emission norms by Thursday - a deadline set by the environment ministry two years ago.

But, over 300 of them did not do so by taking refuge in a relaxed approach of the ministry towards them at the behest of the Central Electricity Authority (CEA) which sought more time for these plants to install required instruments for meeting those standards.

The Delhi-based think-tank Centre for Science and Environment (CSE) has estimated that the power sector alone contributes 60% of the PM (particulate matter), 45% of sulphur dioxide, 30% of nitrogen oxides and 80% of mercury emissions of the total emissions from the industrial sector.

“The inaction by government to implement emission standards for coal-based power plants is a clear indication of the lack of political will, and demonstrates that the interests of some industries (power plants) is placed above public health”, said Sunil Dahiya, senior campaigner of the Greenpeace India.

Now I do agree with Shapur Kotwal on the opinion that if the electricity produced is not clean, then what is the point of using an EV?

A vast majority of the electricity produced in India comes from Coal. And as the report suggests they are so lazy about doing anything which would help improve emissions.

And there appears to be completely lack of coordination between the various ministries of the Government.

On one hand we are seeing a good initiative being launched by one arm of the Government and on the other we are seeing the other hand appearing to be going the other way.

We should discuss it. After all, the onus will be put on us, in the end. We will have to pay for that EV. We will have to pay for that electricity. Whatever solution comes from the government, it always has some agenda of milking out more money from the people.

And we are paying and will continue to pay for the harmful effects of the air pollution.

[Mad Max]

One thing about the above article I'd like to differ with - "Electric cars don't make power - they only consume it" . Not necessarily true. There are enough systems designed with regenerative power systems that can either feed an auxiliary unit or just feed back to the main. It may not be a reality today for common use but such systems are being tested and optimized for mass production.

Also, the whole argument that we are blowing up coal to get electricity doesn't go the distance when it comes to other means / ability to generate electricity. Think wind / wave energy mechanisms. For now, the challenge is transmission and storage. And there are a bunch of smart people involved in getting over these hurdles. Once these become mainstream, we may just let the dinosaurs rest in peace.

I also think we differentiate a lot between the West and India to the point we kind of say that we can't get over certain hurdles. Think e-Commerce, Think Uber, Think Digital payments. None of this was even around in India 8-10 years ago. Yes, for the electric power stuff, we need infrastructure, distribution etc. But all these have been solved and can be solved in India.

My confidence is placed in our young smart workforce in the making and I am sure they will not just jump over these hurdles; they'll do a giant leap over it.

[kaviprem]

My 2 cents...
Whoever owns and lives in an individual home/villa, install the Solar plant. Its very simple. Start with 4 solar panels [250W each] and 2 batteries [12V each] to power up all but 15A power appliances.
I am not talking in air, I am running all my 5A appliance [including the Refrigerator and 0.5HP motor to pump water from sump to over head tank] with the above setup for the past 3+ years. This is just with 2 batteries and I was told I can attach more such batteries to increase the load capacity to charge e2O. But, I didn't go that far and I sold my e2O eventually due to other reasons :(

While I am doing this in Bangalore [dull] weather, my cousin is able to do it much more effective in Chennai. Reason being, the solar panel starts charging as early as 6:00AM in Chennai in this month of December. Imagine March to June!

Net-net - Dont depend on State Electricity Board, instead use the solar power to create your own domestic power plant!

You may PM me for more details if interested.

Prem.

[perty]

Originally Posted by kaviprem

My 2 cents...

What was the approximate cost and area required per panel ? Also how many years does it take to break even with reduction in power bills, assuming that you are not selling the generated power back to the grid ?
Asking here instead of PMing so that others who might have the same question won't end up sending multiple PMs

[kaviprem]

Originally Posted by perty

What was the approximate cost and area required per panel ? Also how many years does it take to break even with reduction in power bills, assuming that you are not selling the generated power back to the grid ?
Asking here instead of PMing so that others who might have the same question won't end up sending multiple PMs

I know, we are going OT far away. Lets take a chance for a good reason!

Area - ~ 40 sqft. and technically its not a waste of your terrace space since you can elevate the panels and use the shade under that space!

Cost - ~ 1,40,000/- 3 years ago for my setup. I dont know how far the prices have changed now.

Power generation - ~ 5 units per day.

Cost per day - ~ 30/- [assuming 6/- a unit in Bangalore].
Monthly cost - ~ 900/- saved.

Do rest of the math.

Primary criteria - you are NOT installing solar unit @ your home for saving electricity bill, instead be self sufficient.

When Bangalore [my area] had 3 days/nights of power failure a couple of years ago, it was only my home that had power to light up, pump up water, store milk and curd in right shape in refrigerator.
To me, these kind of basic necessity and comfort can NOT be compared to cost you save.
Of course, saving on monthly bill is an additional benefit We dont want to ignore that.

I heard that BESCOM [Bangalore Electricity Board] has a way of feeding power back to the grid that would make the meter run in reverse to negate the power units we consume. I haven't explored that yet. Call me lazy

Prem.

[volkman10]

Better sense prevails , clash of ideas!

Minister against ‘bulldozing’ auto industry over e-cars. Says someone who is responsible for e- vehicles should make the announcement.

As ministers, we make many announcements because we want to set targets. And when we set targets, it is important to have deadlines, otherwise there is no point. That is fine. However, if we are not successful till 2030, it doesn’t mean that the industry is a failure. To make it successful, we have to take all stakeholders together

We have to move forward in a phased manner. So, my ministry and I have not made any announcements. But announcements are being made by other ministers. Someone who is responsible (for e-vehicles) is not doing it, those not responsible is making announcements. It is a democracy, it is natural.

Link

[volkman10]

Another confusion in the making? Pitches for methanol based HYBRID Vehicles!

Moving to electric vehicles would require setting up of large infrastructure, mainly charging stations across the country, and it would put additional burden on already growing demand for electricity

Niti Aayog is aggressively pushing methanol and has suggested a road map to reduce the annual oil import bill by $100 billion.

Lithium is not an easily available resource and the world will run out of the basic resource if all switch over to lithium-ion batteries for electric vehicles. Hence, it is not a sustainable solution

Link

[CarguyNish]

Methanol - In Brief

Methanol is the simplest alcohol. It is a light, volatile, colorless, flammable liquid with a distinctive odor very similar to that of ethanol (drinking alcohol). It's main constituents are Water & Carbon.

Methanol Pro's & Con's.

Pro's

1. Methanol is considered to be less expensive than other commercial fuels and gasoline.

2. During the process of combustion, it provides a higher thermal efficiency and power output because of its high octane rating and high heat vaporization.

3. It is less volatile than other forms of fuel or gasoline. This makes it less explosive and the risk of explosion especially in car collisions is lower.

4. When it is burned, it does not create a polluting black smoke.

5. It accepts water, unlike gasoline. It is easier to suppress methanol-induced fire using water.

6. It has biodegradable properties so when it is mixed with air, water, or soil, it does not linger very long.

7. It is common for ships to have oil spillage in waters. Oil spills are not easily diluted, resulting in a detrimental effect to marine life. Fuel spills in ships that have switched to methanol fuel will not have the same problem.

8. There is also a reduction in the exhaust emission of hydrocarbon-related toxins in the air during engine combustion. This means lesser pollution.


Cons:

1. It has more acidic characteristics compared to gasoline/oil. It also allows the formation of water during combustion. This makes it a corrosive agent; thus, engine valves and cylinders corrode easily.

2. It has lower energy content when burned. This means that to produce more energy, it will require higher fuel consumption.

3. When burned, it creates invisible flames. Because of this, the presence of fire cannot be easily and immediately detected.

4. It has less volatile properties compared to gasoline. This makes it more difficult to fire up or start engines, most especially during cold weather.

Methanol as an alternative fuel used directly or added or mixed with gasoline can possibly provide a solution in the increasing demand for fuel. Furthermore, it can help to at least regulate the ever-increasing price of gasoline and fuel in the world market.

Point 1 & 2 will be a big factor to consider if it's likely to be adopted.

A small comparison between Gasoline & Methanol.

https://youtu.be/GAkz9S55zsk

[needforspeed88]

In country which still is far removed from 100% rural electrification and where farmers only get 6 hours per day of three phase power there is no way India can even dream of going fully electric by 2030. The infrastructure and the amount of electricity needed to make this a reality is simply unimaginable at this point especially in our nation where majority of the electricity still comes from coal plants.

[srishiva]

Well, there is no penalty for dreaming. Alternative sources like CNG which are today's reality is not being used properly for public transport. Its not surprising giving the lack of planning or implementation zeal.

But for tomorrow, electric mobility will happen and I dont think the majority of auto makers will be making fossil fuel based vehicles only for us. So we have to move with the rest of the world.

[Thermodynamics]

There can be more competitive scenarios in future. For example the disruption caused by shale gas exploration in US and associated Crude price fall leaves us some learnings.

Shale gas is present in many parts of the world including India. By 2030, the shale technology will become available to many countries. It can become dirt cheap as well.

[volkman10]

TIme to change the title of the thread (year-wise)

No plan at present to have all electric car fleet by 2030

There is no plan under consideration at present to have all vehicles electric powered in the country by 2030, Parliament was informed today

Reply was in response to a question on whether the Government plans to make all vehicles in the country powered by electricity by 2030.

Link

[kbishwa]

Originally Posted by volkman10

TIme to change the title of the thread (year-wise)

No plan at present to have all electric car fleet by 2030

These politicians are very funny creatures, and that when they are holding responsible constitutional positions! They sound big, like actors on silver-screen! And when the responsibility & accountability parts come, fusssss!

This statement will surely dampen the enthusiasm in the EV brigade. At the same time, it's still not late to review all the alternatives available including one based on oil/gasoline and future alternatives electric/hydrogen/CNG and many more in pipe line.

Dear ministers, please, it is your responsibility to be level-headed.