[AdityaDeane]

Originally Posted by pavi

'Maruti' released, not an independent agency. By the way as Maruti stated their new generation models are BNVSAP crash worthy, does that mean an unstable structure is fine in BNVSAP norms or the 'crash speed' may be less.

Even I would only trust an independent agency like GNCAP for the actual result, but I guess pictures speak louder than words, and hence will give MSIL the credit this time.

I own a Tata Nano, who am I to speak about vehicle structure safety!!

[theexperthand]

Originally Posted by AdityaDeane

EI guess pictures speak louder than words, and hence will give MSIL the credit this time.

Seriously OT:

Pictures can be misleading also. Till the report from an independent jury is out, I will hold my breath.

Should I dare to hope against hope, to see if this is the 5STAR made in India car NCAP was hinting about?

--Anoop

[pavi]

Originally Posted by AdityaDeane

Even I would only trust an independent agency like GNCAP for the actual result, but I guess pictures speak louder than words, and hence will give MSIL the credit this time.

I own a Tata Nano, who am I to speak about vehicle structure safety!!

Photos do not give complete picture. Even a video does not provide that. Given below the Swift crash test video, and I don't infer an unstable structure from the below video (may be you can give a try). It depends on the sensor readings from the dummies and the analysis of the chassis members after the crash, to come to a conclusion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTPch_8wCXQ

[itsashishsharma]

Mods it has been long time now that the JTP twins were launched. Please can we have the review ready now? It will not be a fully fledged new car review as the these vehicles are not really new cars and hence many aspects are already covered in their respective official review threads.

[agambhandari]

I visited a Tata showroom and called others in Delhi NCR region enquiring about Tiago JTP only to be met with sales guys who were clueless about the JTP cars, when they'll come for display or TD. One of them even told me with utmost confidence that JTP hasn't even launched yet. Would be launched in January. For a launch like this, it would obviously attract a kind of buyer who would never have looked at buying a Tata before most likely.
And going by the their attitude seems like there is still good reason not to.

[ksameer1234]

Originally Posted by agambhandari

I visited a Tata showroom and called others in Delhi NCR region enquiring about Tiago JTP only to be met with sales guys who were clueless about the JTP cars, when they'll come for display or TD. One of them even told me with utmost confidence that JTP hasn't even launched yet. Would be launched in January.

I believe when they mention that the car isn't launched, they mean that it isn't launched at their showroom (one with some ribbon cutting by regional sales head and all with publication in newspapers) and hence they don't have complete pricing information and all. Even the designated showrooms in Pune have informed me that the car isn't launched yet. Of course, there is no information on when the display cars will come, when test drives will start and when actual deliveries will happen. Concorde motors here is only accepting pre-booking amount, not even booking. So I guess there is long way to go before some one can lay hands on the JTP.

[rajess_in]

Originally Posted by pavi

Photos do not give complete picture.... It depends on the sensor readings from the dummies and the analysis of the chassis members after the crash, to come to a conclusion.

Sorry for being

I am replying to help people understand the general safety testing protocols better. Sensor readings are basically the forces measured on the dummy (the chest, head, abdomen, thigh, etc.). The sensors on the structure are for recording the pulse of the deceleration happening during crash (basically you are moving fast and coming to a halt all of sudden). The pulse will tell how much g force is generated in the impact (A normal healthy individual can survive upto 10-11g force on seat belts). The dummies give the injury criteria, we can say as how much likely a normal healthy individual could be injured (light to very fatal). Understand that the threshold for injury will depend on each individual and varies as per age, size, and several other things (recall the movie - Unbreakable)

Now the vehicle structure is investigated for the various intrusions in to the cabin, like the dash area for engine, pedals, etc. the steering wheel shift, A pillar integrity in case of frontal crash, whether doors open after crash, etc. Based on these the structure is rated as stable or unstable.

You are right to say that the picture and videos don't do any justice to this, but the experts who evaluate these phenomena indeed do an very elaborate and exhaustive investigation. Also they share some of the vehicles (best scorer and worst scorer) to other NCAP organisations as a means of sharing knowledge, expertise and harmony of regulations. Though we cannot decide by seeing the pictures or videos, believe me when I say that what they infer is very much a fact based on years of study and thorough examination.

[pavi]

Originally Posted by rajess_in

Sorry for being

....believe me when I say that what they infer is very much a fact based on years of study and thorough examination.

I hope you quoted me to add more information, because I did not find anything in my post contradicting with the details you mentioned in your post. As you are from an Automotive R&D background, I do have a query which has been in the minds of members for a long time. Does the sheet metal thickness have any role in crash safety or rating? I don't believe it has, but correct me if I am wrong.

[veedub89]

Originally Posted by pavi

I hope you quoted me to add more information, because I did not find anything in my post contradicting with the details you mentioned in your post. As you are from an Automotive R&D background, I do have a query which has been in the minds of members for a long time. Does the sheet metal thickness have any role in crash safety or rating? I don't believe it has, but correct me if I am wrong.

Sorry for taking this thread into another direction.

Sheet metal thickness matters! In some cases, at least.
In our family business we supply compressed air solutions and when selecting the appropriate tank/receiver for a given amount of system pressure, sheet metal thickness is of utmost importance.
So much so, that there have been cases where a compressed air tank has burst because thinner sheets were used to lower the manufacturing cost of the tank.

So if the thicker sheets can sustain more pressure (from the inside), I am going to safely assume that a thicker sheet is going to be safer. This is obviously up to a point where the sheet is so thick that it doesn't absorb the impact and then becomes unsafe. I can't quantify that optimum thickness, however.

[blackwasp]

Originally Posted by veedub89

Sheet metal thickness matters!

Unfortunately that is incorrect. There are cars out there with no sheet metals yet offering good safety (eg. some of the more expensive sports cars, racing cars etc. that use composite materials). I'm not saying same tech is used in our cars, but we have discussed this for a long time here. Unless there are crash tests, there is no way to ascertain if X car is safer than Y.

So much so, that there have been cases where a compressed air tank has burst because thinner sheets were used to lower the manufacturing cost of the tank.

So if the thicker sheets can sustain more pressure (from the inside), I am going to safely assume that a thicker sheet is going to be safer. This is obviously up to a point where the sheet is so thick that it doesn't absorb the impact and then becomes unsafe. I can't quantify that optimum thickness, however.

A car that offers good crumple zones is considered to be good. As long as the occupants come out safe after a shunt I would not care of the extent of damage on the outside.

In our context, it's just speculative at best. Coming to the JTP twins in question, the are as safe as others or as unsafe as their rivals in the Indian market unless someone conducts a crash test.

EDIT: Do take a look at this crash test. 2.1 times the weight difference between the Merc and the Smart!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v708z67ALww

[Chetan_Rao]

Construction (material, build or design) quality has to be taken in the right context.

The primary aim of crash-worthiness is to ensure minimum damage to passengers, not to the vehicle itself. The energy has to go somewhere, since energy can neither be created nor destroyed (First Law of Thermodynamics), so a vehicle is primarily designed to ensure that the energy created by an impact is dissipated as much as possible before it reaches the occupants, by whatever methods possible.

Structural integrity, as applied to vehicles, is intended to protect the passenger cabin from deforming dangerously or passing on impact energy from other structural members, while everything else is (or should be) designed to be sacrificed (if needed) to achieve that purpose.

The extent of damage varies across the spectrum, some manufacturers make more compromises than others, but a car that stays intact while keeping all occupants completely unharmed is a myth. The energy needs to go somewhere, and a broken car is an acceptable price to pay rather than a broken human.

[discoverwild]

Got to see a JTP on the road with temporary plates. The difference was that it was Silver, not white or red. Just got a glimpse on the other side in peak traffic while I was giving way to an ambulance. Hence, no pictures.

[ACM]

Originally Posted by discoverwild

Got to see a JTP on the road with temporary plates. The difference was that it was Silver, not white or red. Just got a glimpse on the other side in peak traffic while I was giving way to an ambulance. Hence, no pictures.

JTPs are only White or Red, Not Silver.

Could be a kitted out normal Tiago or an older test mule but that is less likely.

[discoverwild]

Originally Posted by ACM

JTPs are only White or Red, Not Silver.

Could be a kitted out normal Tiago or an older test mule but that is less likely.

Probably an old test mule. But there was only a temporary registration. Certainly not the regular Tiago. Had the smoked lamps and the air scoop on the bonnet. Since I live close to Jayem Automotive, could have been one of their test cars. Saw this on the same road about 2 KMS from their premises.

[agambhandari]

After tweeting out to Tata Motors and having a lot of back and forth with their team and the Concorde motors dealer in Delhi, they have confirmed that the display and TD cars would be dispatched in 2nd week of December, so we can expect TD in 2nd or 3rd week at the earliest. I hope they can stick to this timeline now.
Even though i don't have a pressing need to replace my car immediately, not everyone is so flexible with their needs and I'm sure this late launch would have cost them a few sales at the very least.