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Old 20th September 2020, 12:52   #196
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Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

The Safari Storme is definitely in the news for the wrong reasons.

Statistically, it is not causing as much deaths in accidents as other vehicles of the army. However, the number of higher rankings officer passengers dying in these accidents is what is causing a Storme.

The suspension has been raised for increased ground clearance apparently. This has led to reduced handling quality and excessive rolling in hills. The handling feels unresponsive and different from my own personal Safari Storme. Thus you see the drivers taking wider turns than normal.

The problem also lies with the power of the vehicle. All army drivers were used to a non responsive and sluggish response from Maruti Gypsy Kings, Mahindra Jeep and trucks of the army they were driving. Suddenly, without any familiarization with the Safari Storme, they are made to drive these beasts. Most of the time, the safari Storme accelerates way more than the driver expected and goes out of his control.

The Safari Storme also has a tendency to give the impression that it is travelling at much slower speeds than it actually is going. I have seen my father drive it at high speeds on the Yamuna expressway. When I asked him to slow down, he said it felt as if vehicle was at around 80 kmph max. Most of the drivers love this sudden new power and meet with accidents when the beast goes out of their control at high speeds on open highways and desert roads.

The accident in the photo apparently happened because the rear tyre burst causing the Safari to go out of control . Apparently, it must have been driving at a high speed also to compound the matter.

The braking system of the safari is also not what a normal fauji driver is used to. ABS causes the vehicle brakes to shudder when applied strongly and make the vehicle turn to a side to avoid frontal collision which when combined with the vehicles high CG makes it roll over easily, as happened in the photo.

A major problem with Storme is also the delayed reaction to acceleration when you drive it in the hills in high traffic of hill towns. Diesel curve, unlike a petrol engine, the power out put is not immediate. A small time gap arises between pressing the accelerator and the response from the engine in low gears. This leads to accidents due to rolling down of the vehicle if hand brake and brakes are not used in time.

The safari Storme has also not been crash tested as seen from the net for frontal crash. It did pass an European test for side impact. It is the same for most SUVs of Indian origin. Most would be illegal in Western countries .

It's production in civil has also been stopped since 2019 due to low sales and BS-6 impelementation from April 2020. Tata is also following probably in the lines of gypsy, bullet motorcycle and Jeep by discontinuing it's production for civilians so that the brand gets it's exclusivity and appeal for future resales in a new avataar.

Having said all this, India ek garib desh hai. Itna Paisa me itnaich milenga.

The Safari storme is far superior to the Maruti Gypsy and Mahindra Jeep for it's role, that is to ferry officers and staff and their luggage comfortably with climate control.

It is not meant to be a QRT vehicle or a mine proof vehicle or a tank. So let's not expect as such.

It is so good for it's designated role that it is strongly preferred by all officers and has acquired a VIP and cult status in army. The senior officers no longer want the grand old Ambassador as a mark of status. Storme is the new icon of status and power.

As for my own safari Storme, it has stood strongly by me for the last seven plus years over hills, mountains, snow, storms, floods, landslides, mudslides, deserts and plains. When I start a long drive, I can never predict where I will finally reach because all destinations seem within reach when you drive the beast. I have once driven from Delhi for Jammu and found myself in Shimla on a whim, driven from ambala for Agra and decided to drive on to Allahabad, started with aim for some place and seen a wonderful option on the way and gone there. Just because I know my beast won't let me down, ever.

Last edited by Aditya : 21st September 2020 at 05:11. Reason: Spacing added, extra dot deleted
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Old 20th September 2020, 13:24   #197
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Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

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Originally Posted by manipuriguy View Post
The Safari Storme is definitely in the news for the wrong reasons.

.
Don't you feel there is overall decline in disciplined driving among armed forces drivers leading to such incidents?
The current set of drivers behave more like cabbies. When I have travel to Delhi cantonment I find armed forces drivers level of skill below par compared to a decade back.
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Old 20th September 2020, 18:02   #198
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Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

In the Indian Army, it is not necessary that you be a driver before you join to be allotted the trade or work of driving army vehicles. Normal sepoys are allotted driver trade and trained to be drivers.
These sepoys come from the same stock as normal Indians. They are not coming from US or Israel. Hence, they do possess inherent Indian traits of discipline or the lack of it depending on ones perception. They are a reflection of our society.
The quality of sepoys has improved drastically in the recent past in terms of intelligence. Class XII pass boys are the norm now unlike the past. They are not afraid to interact with civilians or officers now. Mobiles have brought about a social revolution of sorts.
In the past , soldiers rarely interacted with civilians and drove mostly within the army cantts. Now, it is impossible to decide where the Cantts end and civil areas begin. Hence, there is an increased interaction between sepoys and civilians. This may have led to you seeing more army vehicles and drivers in Delhi.

Regarding your comment on "good ol days"....every generation feels the next generation is worthless. ��

Hence all these factors may have contributed to your perception about sepoy drivers but rest assured, things are not bad as you think.The drivers are a dedicated lot and constantly on duty come war or peace and have a very hard and tough service life. They are the backbone of our logistics supply chain and major contributors to our great Army's success.
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Old 20th September 2020, 19:11   #199
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Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

Quote:
Originally Posted by manipuriguy View Post
The Safari Storme is definitely in the news for the wrong reasons.
Statistically, it is not causing as much deaths in accidents as other vehicles of the army. However, the number of higher rankings officer passengers dying in these accidents is what is causing a Storme...
A high gc vehicle, made higher for the army on a narrow track and extremely top heavy body is a recipie for disaster. The Storme platform is not as stable as say a Fortuner or an Endeavour.
Regarding abs, no vehicle tracks left or right on application of abs, if it happens in your car, get the wheel alignment checked asap,it is abnormal and dangerous.
Lastly, we cannot blanket blame all army drivers for a single crash. Try putting the Storme through an Elk maneuver and it will topple at even low speeds. The car needs to be lowered by a feet atleast.

Last edited by Sheel : 21st September 2020 at 13:34. Reason: Please quote ONLY the relevant bits of a post. Quoting a full, long post inconveniences our mobile readers. Thanks!
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Old 20th September 2020, 22:17   #200
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Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

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Originally Posted by manipuriguy View Post
The problem also lies with the power of the vehicle. All army drivers were used to a non responsive and sluggish response from Maruti Gypsy Kings, Mahindra Jeep and trucks of the army they were driving. Suddenly, without any familiarization with the Safari Storme, they are made to drive these beasts. Most of the time, the safari Storme accelerates way more than the driver expected and goes out of his control...
That's a lot of assumptions and deductions in one post whilst putting absolute minimum faith on capabilities of (army) drivers.

By no yardstick the Safari accelerates in a manner that will surprise anyone, let alone army drivers. It is torquey engine but it doesn't shock you. Besides its a 2+ ton vehicle powered by a diesel engine that is know for linear power delivery. Sure it may be faster than a Gypsy but its nay impossible the drivers are caught off guard and are woken up by sudden jolt of acceleration.

Regarding ABS' behavior, I believe the vehicle you made that observation on is faulty. ABS does not and should not do that, if it does that, its actually defeating the purpose.

As for the "feels like" nature, that is a very common trait in modern cars. Nothing extra ordinary. I am sure army drivers of current time are already aware of that.

Same for diesel engine's nature of power delivery. Its not a well guarded secret. None of the apparent qualities of Storme mentioned are ground breaking that they will catch drivers by surprise in this era.

Honestly, give some credit to army and its drivers.

Last edited by Sheel : 21st September 2020 at 13:34. Reason: Please quote ONLY the relevant bits of a post. Quoting a full, long post inconveniences our mobile readers. Thanks!
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Old 21st September 2020, 00:09   #201
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Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

When talking about the capability of Indian National Army drivers, we must also keep in mind that these same soldiers who drove Gypsy King's also drove Mahindra Marshal/Jeeps/ Marksman/ Axe/ Scorpio/ Bolero, Ambassador, Tata Sumo, Fortuner (There is a customized version of Toyota Fortuner used by Indian Army specifically in Indo-Tibet region) and also the multitude of Tata and Ashok Leyland Heavy Duty trucks of 4x4, 6x6, 8x8 all varieties.
These same soldiers encounter those roads which are not suitable for civilian drivers on a regular basis.

And on top of that when Tata was building Safari specifically for Indian Army one of the biggest contribution in requirements and tests was definitely coming from these Indian National Army drivers.

Safari Storme is no beast for them.
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Old 21st September 2020, 06:54   #202
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Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

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Originally Posted by Romeo_Mike View Post
Came across this news article -
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.freep...4-0f59d5a342a2

The cabin seems to have taken extensive damage. Although the exact circumstances of the crash are not completely known, one would still expect built for army vehicles to be tougher than road going ones. Can anyone familiar with the subject shed some light?

@Mods: posted it here as it seemed to fit. Please move to any other more suitable thread if applicable.

IMHO ESP along with TPMS could have saved this situation. I wish Tata retrofit ESP in all army vehicles. It is sad to see Army tested all sorts of things on a vehicle and ordered one without ESP

Last edited by Godzilla : 21st September 2020 at 06:56.
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Old 21st September 2020, 08:05   #203
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Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

I have never done any offroad driving. However, I am a big fan of a TeamBhp member who runs a YouTube channel about offroading. In almost all videos that he uploads, Fortuner does the best, while Gypsy does the worst. The Gypsy can't even climb small hills which cars like the Safari do with ease, and these are the civilian Safari models vs. modified Gypsy cars. I still don't get why people keep saying that the Gypsy or something based on that platform are good cars. They are rudimentary vehicles designed in 1970s. Storme was designed in 1990s.

Why is it that people still love the Gypsy so much when it can't compete even with a Duster on an off road track, let alone a proper 4WD like Storme. Also, the accidents mentioned are very severe and may have been caused due to overspeeding, as another knowledgeable member mentioned. Is there a way to install a switchable speed limiter in such vehicles, such that in an emergency and with authorization it could be switched off but it stays on while driving on express highways.

If there's any other car that should compete with the Storme, it should be something like the Fortuner which has absolute bulletproof reliability. It cannot be a museum piece like the Gypsy.

Also, it would be great if someone knowledgeable can start a thread about the vehicles used by army in other countries with a similar economic stature as India.

Last edited by Cessna182 : 21st September 2020 at 08:12.
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Old 21st September 2020, 08:45   #204
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Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

I read somewhere that Tata Safari Storme Army edition comes with 265 BHP and 800 NM of torque, which means double the torque and 120+ BHP (70% more BHP and 200% more Torque) compared to civilian Safari storme. This means it makes tremendous power for what it is initially designed to do. I wonder if they did anything with brakes (upgrading to brembos or high power braking systems, bigger disks, etc) and suspension to accommodate higher powered engines. I wish they make 9 airbags, ESP, ABS standard on these Army vehicles for extra safety of our Army men. That's the least TATA MOTORS can do for our country.


https://www.financialexpress.com/aut...nlist/1292653/


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cessna182 View Post
Fortuner does the best, while Gypsy does the worst. The Gypsy can't even climb small hills which cars like the Safari do with ease, and these are the civilian Safari models vs. modified Gypsy cars. I still don't get why people keep saying that the Gypsy or something based on that platform are good cars.

Why is it that people still love the Gypsy so much when it can't compete even with a Duster on an off road track, let alone a proper 4WD like Storme.
The only place gypsy scores better than Fortuner, Safari and other bigger SUVs is it's weight. It is an extremely light weight vehicle, being a petrol one, once if it gets into a power band, it can go out of any situation easily. Gypsy is a soft off roader while these Diesel behemoths are Hard off roaders. Nothing can compare to the mighty diesel torque IMHO. Simple test would be tug of war. Tie a rope between Gypsy and Fortuner / Safari / Hexa / V-cross / Pajero, Endeavour, etc. Gypsy wouldn't even stand a chance. But it served our Army well, and there are still many Gypsy enthusiasts. I too love gypsy, but nothing comes closer to diesel powered SUVs for me.

Now that the new Thar's petrol and diesel power figures are almost similar, I'm very curious to see how they fare during off-roading and tricky situations when struck. It would be fun.
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Old 21st September 2020, 09:15   #205
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Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

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Originally Posted by Cessna182 View Post
I have never done any offroad driving....

Why is it that people still love the Gypsy so much
Its OT to this thread but Sir you need to watch this. Its the same vehicle (was sold as the Samurai in some markets) with the same 1.3L petrol and no mods at all. The fact that it can do pretty much everything a large and powerful offroader can, is simply astonishing!



Coming back to the Storme. Powerful engine or not, I was just wondering if upgrading cabin safety was on the cards while designing the Storme for the army considering its designated to be personnel carrier. The roof seems to have collapsed along with the pillars in the pictures I posted above. I have seen other high speed rollover accidents involving say an XUV500 or a Nexon where the top shelf has fared much better.

Last edited by Romeo_Mike : 21st September 2020 at 09:31.
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Old 21st September 2020, 12:20   #206
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Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

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I read somewhere that Tata Safari Storme Army edition comes with 265 BHP and 800 NM of torque, which means double the torque and 120+ BHP (70% more BHP and 200% more Torque) compared to civilian Safari storme.
These were just speculations made by over excited journalists who usually pick information from other sites/ articles. You can easily spot it after going through some of the so called auto websites as they even pick the most unbelievable things or even the typos from others. Ask any so called Youtube Auto Journalist reviewing THAR these days, they will sing the same song and to my surprise, most of them think that hood latch is the thing for looks

The Safari Storme used by our Army is known as GS800 and as per my knowledge the 800 corresponds to the payload and other than a different tune for drivability, the engine specifications in terms of outputs are similar to civilian safari.

Nobody here knows exactly how the accident happened and where the accident happened and which other vehicle was involved. We can definitely ask for more safety for our army personnel as they deserve the best of the world, but let's not declare the vehicle unsafe in terms of shell integrity or driving dynamics without knowing the truth. The vehicle was tested for a long time by the Army and does anybody feel that Tata or indian army will procure something which is not good?
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Old 21st September 2020, 13:47   #207
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Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

Indian army drivers are not city bred drivers who have driven fast cars and SUVs throughout their lives and are familiar with ABS, high speeds or seat bags, as the honorable member assumes. They are normal sepoys trained by the army to be drivers and given exposure initially only to trucks. The better amongst them are given duties of driving light vehicles after training. With every new equipment, some training has to take place before they can be certified. They are also allowed to drive in hills only after a months training and tests. However, in the case of Safari, all assumed it to be of same breed as gypsies and Mahindra Jeep. Hence no special training has been imparted for these vehicles. To compare a Safari to a gypsy or Mahindra Jeep is not logical in any terms from power to comfort to safety. The drivers have no idea of what is in store for them. They get excited and love the fast engine. Many have met accidents on highways after collecting the Safari Stormes brand new from a depot on the Yamuna expressway and other highways. In units too, due to sudden requirements like leave or duty, drivers get changed suddenly and get unfamiliar vehicles. These may cause accidents at times.
Regarding ABS, it is a very old knowledge that it leads to more single car accidents due to rollover ...a little research on the net will bring out the fact. Also, drivers in army till now we're not used to ABS. They were trained to pump the brakes in emergency. This reflex action by itself defeats the very purpose of ABS. The shudder is caused by the stop release action of ABS when brakes are applied at high speeds which makes the vehicle swerve and avoid a head on collision.
Regarding the accident, I have read and heard accounts of the accident and know that it was caused by the rear tyre suddenly deflating. Extra data would not be proper to share in this social media while the matter is under investigation. I can assure the honorable member that it's not an assumption.
Regarding my own exposure to vehicles, I have driven most of Indian SUVs upto the Fortuner range only. If u give me a Ferrari or a Bugatti Veyron, it would be my dream come true for but I will make sure to have a training cadre before I sit on these beasts because they definitely are beasts.

Last edited by ajmat : 21st February 2021 at 22:26. Reason: removed redundant quote tags
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Old 21st September 2020, 14:04   #208
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Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

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Originally Posted by WhiteSierra View Post
I read somewhere that Tata Safari Storme Army edition comes with 265 BHP and 800 NM of torque, which means double the torque and 120+ BHP (70% more BHP and 200% more Torque) compared to civilian Safari storme. This means it makes tremendous power for what it is initially designed to do.
Well, no! the army spec Safari doesn't produce any such figures! The army spec Safari produces exactly same figures as the civilian version. When these figures were released, the comparison was being done with the previous army vehicle i.e. the Gypsy.
IMHO, the Safari's engine or any other 2.2L would not even run a mile with such performance figures (Most of them)!

And if you confuse for the GS800 name, it refers to the payload capacity of the Army spec Safari.
Just to compare, the Gypsy was codenamed as the GS500 by the army, which means 500kgs of payload capacity.
(A 900kgs car car pulling almost 60% weight of a 2 tonne+ weighing car, Impressive! Quite a reason why the army has got more than 1000 units of the Gypsy even after implementation of the BS6 norms! )

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slushmaster View Post
These were just speculations made by over excited journalists who usually pick information from other sites/ articles. You can easily spot it after going through some of the so called auto websites as they even pick the most unbelievable things or even the typos from others. Ask any so called Youtube Auto Journalist reviewing THAR these days, they will sing the same song and to my surprise, most of them think that hood latch is the thing for looks
Facts! These youtubers over exaggerate a lot of things just for some more views! Sadly, these include some well known youtubers as well!
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Old 21st February 2021, 21:22   #209
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Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

News reports have mentioned a couple of times that Armymen need to trek 4 kms to get to Galwan valley from their base. But it looks like the Army's Tata Safari managed to get there (screengrab from PLA's recently released propaganda video on Galwan valley clash)

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Old 21st February 2021, 22:14   #210
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Default Re: Indian Army's new official vehicle - the Tata Safari Storme!

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Originally Posted by theAutomaniac View Post
And if you confuse for the GS800 name, it refers to the payload capacity of the Army spec Safari.
Just to compare, the Gypsy was codenamed as the GS500 by the army, which means 500kgs of payload capacity.
Considering defence spec'ing, 800 would translate to about 1.5 or 1.6 tonnes actual ? Ex: a 407 or similar is considered a one tonner, though it can carry much more.
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