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Old 19th August 2020, 15:33   #1621
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Default re: The 2020 next-gen Mahindra Thar : Driving report on page 86

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fulcrum View Post
7-slat “JEEP” styled grille for Thar spotted at Mahindra Dealer. This is surely something 9/10 Thar buyers would opt for.

Might this be a part of the company’s strategy to avoid any legal confrontation with Jeep for it’s resemblance to the Jeep Wrangler!

Source: Indian Auto
If these grilles were spotted at a Mahindra dealership then i must say they have played it REALLLLLY smart in the grey areas of the law.

I am getting a Thar for sure. They have done a brilliant job. The only confusion is which engine to get. For proper offroading i always find a manual better. But for daily use the petrol A/T seems so attractive.

Also, does anyone know if the hardtop is removable? I was thinking of getting the hardtop and buying the convertible top separately. In the summer I could install the hard top for better heat and dust protection and rest of the year it could be the convertible soft top to turn it into an "open jeep" whenever the weather permits.
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Old 19th August 2020, 15:36   #1622
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Default re: The 2020 next-gen Mahindra Thar : Driving report on page 86

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Originally Posted by drmohitg View Post
Thanks for calling it out. It is so amusing to see everyone accusing Chinese car makers for the same design inspiration but giving a clean chit to our "desi" car maker. It is indeed a blatant copy of the Wrangler and the fact that it looks good doesn't change the reality.
Exactly my thought. Couldn't have put it any better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ValarMorghulis View Post
OK... a noob question... How is this not a copyright question with this being a poor man's copy of Jeep Wrangler? Thar is only narrower and has pretty much the same design cues. Or am I missing the picture?
After the Roxor fiasco, Mahindra would have run these designs by their lawyers to check what level of plagarism would be permissible. Either that or there's some back room deal with FCA where they wont sue.
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Originally Posted by locusjag View Post
Imagine a world where people are in awe of Direwolves.
My TLDR ("too long, didn't read") answer is - Fiat Chrysler and Mahindra are both copying the iconic Wilys jeep.
Fiat Chrysler owns Jeep (which used to be Wilys) and that's how ownership works - you own all design and trademark. Now China can make replica iPhones and sell them for cheap but that does not make it right.

Brief history of Wilys ownership incase this comes up again:
In 1953, Henry J. Kaiser bought Willys-Overland for $60.8 million. The company changed its name to Willys Motors Inc. before becoming Kaiser Jeep Corporation in 1963.
In 1970, American Motors Corporation (AMC) bought the company for around $75 million.
Chrysler bought Jeep in 1987 when they purchased AMC for $1.5 billion. Chrysler continued to produce Jeeps until they merged with Daimler-Benz in 1998. Daimler bought Chrysler in a merger of equals for around $36 billion.
DaimlerChrysler AG became the new company name after the merger. DaimlerChrysler owned Jeep until they offloaded the company in 2007.
Fiat bought Chrysler on January 21, 2014, after acquiring the remaining ownership interest. Fiat swooped in to save Chrysler from failing after they declared Chapter 11 bankruptcy in 2009
Read more: https://www.cjponyparts.com/resources/who-owns-jeep

The Thar is a great looking car and we all want it to succeed but at what point do we draw the line between hating on other countries when they plagarise and not calling out our own companies when they do the same.

Last edited by AZT : 19th August 2020 at 15:50. Reason: Wilys ownership data
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Old 19th August 2020, 15:39   #1623
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Default re: The 2020 next-gen Mahindra Thar : Driving report on page 86

I believe the Jeep connection is a beaten to death discussion.

Jeep own the template for this body shape and I don’t see anything wrong in other players working it in the same category. In my childhood, I remember Mahindra Jeep was the only mode of transport around my mom’s ancestral home (a village in Malappuram district, Kerala); I know, it is like saying Canon Xerox machine

I am not an off-roader fan (more of sedan guy), but if I am based in India, I would have seriously considered the Thar, especially in that stunning black or rocky beige shades. It maybe far from perfect, but the car does have loads of character.

And IMO, it is far from those Chinese copy of some mainstream brands. It’s an established inspiration and probably good to move on.
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Old 19th August 2020, 15:40   #1624
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Default re: The 2020 next-gen Mahindra Thar : Driving report on page 86

Quote:
Originally Posted by suneel View Post

The list goes on. This opinion that it is inevitable to end up with a Wrangler design if one tries to make a modern day "jeep" type vehicle has been voiced in this thread multiple times. People are either making excuses in the face of this list of clear evidence to the contrary, or completely unaware that these cars exist.

.
You have the right to voice your opinion, but it is better to understand what others are saying. All the above mentioned vehicles have undergone umpteen number of iterations and reached current stage. Thar platform is to be frank only is at 3rd life cycle, hence there will be "inspirational" choices!. That doesn't mean that they should keep doing it in the next iterations as well. Being employed in automotive R&D, I have understood how difficult it is to go for all new platform or new looks ( that doesnt have any connection with previous design)without losing customer base, so all i am saying is that while comparison with wrangler or jeep family can be done, it is better to give M&M some slack. Also it is not good to assume that others doesnt have any clue about happenings in the automotive industry across the world.

Last edited by IntoTheStorm : 19th August 2020 at 15:41.
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Old 19th August 2020, 15:45   #1625
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Default re: The 2020 next-gen Mahindra Thar : Driving report on page 86

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Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
Surprisingly, many Indians have an issue and even gone to the extent of comparing our second largest auto manufacturer with Chinese companies. But that is expected, we love to ridicule our own. No offence to anyone.
So they shouldn't be compared to Chinese copy cats even though they copied the design, arguably even more brazenly than even the Chinese right down to Easter eggs, because they are the second largest Indian auto manufacturer? Why should we not ridicule our own? I am sure you wont make the same argument for a criminal because afterall he is our own. Our own doesnt mean they have a free hand to do what they please, to be unethical. Infact we should hold them to an even higher standard than foreign companies simply because they represent the country internationally.

This copy paste behavior is not befitting a multi billion dollar enterprise which owns a design house like Pininfarina, certainly not befitting the second largest auto manufacturer in India.

P.S. For those who couldn't care less, would you have the same level of enthusiasm if it looked exactly like the original Thar but had the newer generation mechanicals as it does now?

Last edited by extreme_torque : 19th August 2020 at 15:51.
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Old 19th August 2020, 15:45   #1626
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Default re: The 2020 next-gen Mahindra Thar : Driving report on page 86

While the styling approach is definitely in Wrangler territory....make no mistake...there is not a single common component. Everything is designed ground up. I can definitely see the reason for this "Classic" product range to stay loyal to its Jeep roots and retain its identity.

Lets cut M&M some slack and show more love for the brilliant product they have come up with !
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Old 19th August 2020, 16:10   #1627
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Default re: The 2020 next-gen Mahindra Thar : Driving report on page 86

Quote:
Originally Posted by IntoTheStorm View Post
I have understood how difficult it is to go for all new platform or new looks ( that doesnt have any connection with previous design)without losing customer base
Here's my two cents on what perhaps might be happening at M&M. Perhaps in a good faith they woke up, albeit too late than Mitsubishis and Fords of the world to have a proper lifestyle product brand in their portfolio.

TL;DR - Gen-2 Thar is a stop-gap arrangement in a long term vision till Gen-3 or Gen-4 Thar comes out which is radically different from now.

Step-1: The second gen Thar becomes an upgrade in every sense than the age old Thar, inheriting the legacy, as well as perhaps making use of some loopholes in the FCA deal of who owns what from the Jeep design.

Step-2: Make the Thar appeal to more and more masses, hammer the branding of thar down the throats of everyone seeing the product so they start knowing it as a Thar, not a Mahindra Jeep. This has been something which even the previous gen models such as Major, Commander, MM550 etc. had been facing.

Any new radical design change without losing existing customers is possible only once people acknowledge the brandname. See what happened when Safari went from Dicor to Storme. Imagine considering how Mitsubishi evolved the shogun, could have done it if people kept recognizing it as the Mitsubishi Jeep even in its 5th generation?

Step-3: Perhaps use some knowledge with the Ford JV to make a better mix of bronco and existing thar to create a Gen-3 Thar which is much more capable, high on tech and refinement, radically different than the original one, and is also loved by the brand's loyal enthusiasts.

Now Gen-2 Thar as has been discussed earlier is hardly in its 3rd or 4th generation. However, due to technological advancements around as well as the 'type of demand', Wrangler and current Pajero have seen at least 7-8 generation changes to come up to where they today are, and How the Pajero and Wrangler became rather premium-lifestyle offering than just barebones offerings with time. If Mahindra plays their cards right, they can create a Thar-Alturas in next 10 years as there will be a gap and a scope after Ssangyong is offloaded from Mahindra basket.

I sincerely hope this is the case and Mahindra becomes aggressive on making better global products, specially out of the Thar brand.

Last edited by PrasunBannerjee : 19th August 2020 at 16:13.
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Old 19th August 2020, 16:11   #1628
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Default re: The 2020 next-gen Mahindra Thar : Driving report on page 86

Quote:
Originally Posted by abhinavsureka View Post
Also, does anyone know if the hardtop is removable? I was thinking of getting the hardtop and buying the convertible top separately. In the summer I could install the hard top for better heat and dust protection and rest of the year it could be the convertible soft top to turn it into an "open jeep" whenever the weather permits.
As per the website, the hard top is NOT removable, though I'd have loved it if it were.

Here are the options, as I understand it:
  • Fixed soft top - wonder why would anyone go for it over the hard top, if it is not removable. Looks maybe!
  • Convertible soft top - my pick of the lot, subject to good water-proofing capability
  • Fixed hard top
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Old 19th August 2020, 16:18   #1629
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Default re: The 2020 next-gen Mahindra Thar : Driving report on page 86

Meanwhile, Mahindra engineers already working on the 'next-gen' Bolero which will be known as the B-Wagen.

Made in India with pride.
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Old 19th August 2020, 16:22   #1630
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Default re: The 2020 next-gen Mahindra Thar : Driving report on page 86

Amusing to see people defending the indefensible. Please accept it is an outright copy and let us move on. To sound sophisticated one can call it inspiration if the word "copy" touches some nerves. But as a respectable public forum, when we take no time in criticising the Chinese for copying car designs, then we should also accept the obvious here. The theory of M&M having some sort of propriety right over Jeep design has also been quite well disposed off with above. It sort of brings the overall trustworthiness of this forum down.
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Old 19th August 2020, 16:32   #1631
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Default re: The 2020 next-gen Mahindra Thar : Driving report on page 86

I made pre-booking advance with Ananth Auto @ Marathahalli. While, i'm very clear with the transmission choice (Petrol, AT), still unclear whether to go for soft or hard top ?
Many of my friends owning THAR are cautioning not to go with soft top as water finds it's way in during heavy rain, and the chances of theft is very high.
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Old 19th August 2020, 16:32   #1632
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Default re: The 2020 next-gen Mahindra Thar : Driving report on page 86

Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkathy23 View Post
Someone please help me understand why could they not provide same (Of)fender design for front and rear, My OCD gets worse each time i look at it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamkathy23 View Post
I think that is done simply to make it look different from the jeep wrangler of the past. I googled and could not find any other 4x4 vehicle with different (Of)fender designs.
According to the German transcendental idealism philosopher Immanuel Kant (Critique of Judgment, 1790), in order to judge something to be "beautiful", sensation must give rise to pleasure by engaging our capacities of reflective contemplation. Well, I have "reflectively contemplated" at great length on this issue and have concluded that we must agree to disagree on the point of what type of fenders would best suit Thar 2.0. Frankly, I think it's sacrilegious to even consider a Thar with similarly designed rounded wheel arches front and back... having said that, Kant would've been understanding about our difference of opinion on this point, for he also wrote that "everyone has his own (sense of) taste".


Aesthetics aside (since beauty, as it were, essentially lies in the eyes of the beholder), let us address the issue of whether 4x4 vehicles have ever sported different fender designs for the front and rear. Ironically, we needn't look further than the mother of all 4x4 SWB vehicles (both figuratively as well as literally)... in fact contrasting styles of wheel arches have been one of the defining characteristics of the exterior design of jeeps!

The following images show the evolution of the exterior shape from the original WWII vintage Willys MB / Ford GPW right up to the Thar 2.0:

Willys MB
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Ford GPW
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Willys CJ 2A
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Willys CJ 3A
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Willys CJ 3B
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Mahindra CJ 3B
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Mahindra CJ 340
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Mahindra CJ 540
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Mahindra MM 550
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Mahindra Classic
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Mahindra Major
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Mahindra Legend
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Mahindra Thar 1.0
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Mahindra Thar 1.2
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Mahindra Thar 2.0
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I for one am really glad that the Thar 2.0's exterior design is evolutionary (and not revolutionary), à la the Jeep Wrangler. I would've hated to see the Thar 2.0 lose sight of its DNA...
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Old 19th August 2020, 16:46   #1633
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Default re: The 2020 next-gen Mahindra Thar : Driving report on page 86

Quote:
Originally Posted by vishy76 View Post
I will be brutally honest, I do agree when people call the Mahindra Thar a Wrangler rip off. No offense to you or anyone else who thinks I am ridiculing my own and being unpatriotic, but I am just calling a spade a spade.
Hey! Nobody is calling anyone unpatriotic here.

If you are referring to my statement that "Indians like to ridicule their own", it just means how we adore "phoren" products and consider Indian brands as downmarket or cheap, be it vehicles or fashion or electronics.

Quote:
Secondly, it entirely depends on how you look at it. On one hand, Mahindra has a very capable design house at its disposal which has given us cars like the XUV 500 and Marazzo from the ground up.
From the ground up - that is the key word.

XUV5OO and Marazzo were fresh products. So, Mahindra could go random or wild with the design, and they did. They did not copy the Innova or the Ertiga. They came up with their own design.

But the Thar has a legacy to live up to. And the design language MUST remain the same. And a Jeep will look like a Jeep. Both the Wrangler and the Thar have evolved from the same design language and it is imperative that they will look alike.


Quote:
Originally Posted by suneel View Post
Who cares what "most westerners" think? Since when is the opinion of "most westerners" a benchmark or standard by which we measure or temper our own thoughts and reactions?
Please go to my post and check out the quoted post.

My reply was in response to Sayan's post where is shared opinions of 'people from abroad'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KMT View Post
They would rather have their own design and design language rather than seeing our homegrown motown biggie, Mahindra still sticking to the 'Jeep' template.
I totally agree.

I want Indian manufacturers to come up with new designs, but not on the Thar which has such a cult status.

In my opinion, Mahindra has done the right thing by keeping the design which everyone loves. After all, there is not much design room to play with when you are making a box shaped Jeep.

Quote:
Originally Posted by extreme_torque View Post
So they shouldn't be compared to Chinese copy cats even though they copied the design, arguably even more brazenly than even the Chinese right down to Easter eggs, because they are the second largest Indian auto manufacturer? Why should we not ridicule our own?
They should not be compared to Chinese manufacturers who blatantly copy designs because I do not feel that this is a direct copy of the design. I feel this is an evolution of their own Jeep, which they have been building for years.

********************

Anyways, this discussion has been going on for way too long in this thread. There are two groups here - one who likes the design and others who think this is a blatant copy. Let's just agree to disagree with each other and move on.

Peace.

Last edited by raj_5004 : 19th August 2020 at 16:55.
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Old 19th August 2020, 16:49   #1634
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Default re: The 2020 next-gen Mahindra Thar : Driving report on page 86

Quote:
Originally Posted by cool_dube View Post
By this analogy, are you implying that Thar will pull in potential Wrangler buyers?
Just because the Thar and Wrangler are not competing products, it does not mean that the companies that own them are not competing in the bigger picture. Mahindra and FCA are competing against each other with other products in different segments and in different countries/markets.

So yes, Mahindra copying FCA's design and making money off of it, definitely does impact FCA negatively.

And this is completely aside from the issue of brand dilution and its effects.

Last edited by suneel : 19th August 2020 at 16:52.
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Old 19th August 2020, 16:57   #1635
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Default re: The 2020 next-gen Mahindra Thar : Driving report on page 86

Quote:
Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
They should not be compared to Chinese manufacturers who blatantly copy designs because I do not feel that this is a direct copy of the design. I feel this is an evolution of their own Jeep, which they have been building for years.
So they just happen to match the interiors and the exteriors to a "T" and even the Easter eggs. Pure co-incidence? What is your definition of blatant for Chinese companies and for Indian companies because clearly it is different.

Quote:
Originally Posted by raj_5004 View Post
Anyways, this discussion has been going on for way too long in this thread. There are two groups here - one who like the design and others who think this is a blatant copy. Let's just agree to disagree with each other and move on.

Peace.
No you havent got it. I like the design just as I like Wrangler's design but I have no qualms in admitting that this is a copy paste job of the most brazen kind.

Last edited by extreme_torque : 19th August 2020 at 17:02.
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